Ok, maybe I’m strange, but I’m sick to death of Oak! I’m working on a custom pantry unit for a client. White oak. She wants it to look like Cherry! Huh? Then why pick Oak?
I just finished a TV stand for the same client….Oak again. Sigh…..How can I regain an appreciation I once had for the stuff? Seems to me like it’s mostly good for kitchen cabinet boxes, and mission furniture. Am I just tired of it? What am I missing that makes it so popular?
Replies
I am not a professional woodworker. Heck, for the last several years I have not even qualified as a hobbyist woodworker. Still, I have also lost my appreciation for oak.
In my case, I think it came about with the proliferation of Home Improvement Centers which made lower quality, radial-sawn oak plywood available to the masses. I can't remember the last time I saw a room with an oak "theme" without some radial sawn plywood. Maybe I'd like it, I don't know.
Just a hunch.
Oak is still cheap on the stump, which translates to $$$$$ for someone in the supply chain. It also grows faster than cherry or walnut or maple, and I suspect it is most plentiful.
Likewise, I hate it, but my focus is on Queen Anne and Georgian furniture, so walnut and cherry rule, with poplar and sugar pine as a secondary woods! ( I can't afford mahogany, so I ignore it.)
John in Texas
well, I had the same feeling about poplar after building so many paint grade pieces with it. Oak has it's place; for your customers, it may recall furniture from childhood. Oak is also very common throughout churches.
But it can be a drag to finish if the pores need to be sealed first. Depending on where you live, oak is very commonly used for flooring and mantles. In Chicago, it was actually used in the postwar years as framing lumber.
It could be time to set it aside and work with a different specie.
It could be time to set it aside and work with a different specie.
Oh how I'd love to, but she's gettin a bit anxious. I'll just grin, bear it, and finish the darn thing off so I can get it out of my shop. Sigh.....and I used to love to work with oak.
As to finishing.....that's the other bugger. She wanted it to look like Cherry. I explained it never would but....so I mixed up a bit of stain, and it's pretty red. Very much the color tones of Cherry. Follow that with wipe on poly (I know, I know...but it's quick and pretty resistant to lots of stuff and since this is a pantry unit), some light sanding, another coat, and that's about it.
Then on to South American Walnut!
I am just a hobby woodworker and I know for myself I want nothing to do with oak, I was thinking about this very subject the other day and the conclusion I came up with is that oak has been completely cheapened by all the fake cheapo particle board furniture makers. I was wondering if it was just me, I guess not. Shane
With the exception of A&C/Mission style stuff, where it is the more appropriate choice, I'm with you.
My wife was of the other school... She wanted little or no grain in her wood furniture. I have slowly won her over. We recently moved a rosewood toybox to the livingroom to use as a coffee table. She commented on how beautiful the grain in it was.
I used to be a non-oak kind of woodworker until I started doing the A&C projects using quartersawn white oak and I started fuming as a first step in finishing. I like the amazing grain patterns and how it works in general. I still like the Cherry and Paduak and all the others, but see most of my coming project all in the oak.Dave Graf
I gotta admit that I've just recently started playing around with fuming Oak. And I gotta say that I have enjoyed it. I'm even thinking about building some A&C stuff just to see what it's like to fume something bigger and because my significant other digs A&C furniture. So, from that perspective I guess I'd have to say that I've found a new interest in Oak. But, in terms of anything other than that... I really don't care for Oak.
I gotta admit that I've just recently started playing around with fuming Oak. And I gotta say that I have enjoyed it.try fuming cherry or mahogany, assuming you are using potassium dichromate, the results are stunning also. aloha, mike
try fuming cherry or mahogany, assuming you are using potassium dichromate, the results are stunning also.
No, I've just been using Amonia. Where do you get the PD?
No, I've just been using Amonia. Where do you get the PD?http://www.djmarks.com/stories/faq/Where_can_I_get_Potassium_Dichromate_46686.asp
Please read the cautions -very important! aloha, mike
I'm with you, Dave. I'm not a big fan of Oak at all.
well.... call me weird.. but I kinda like it....
granted I don't work with it often, and I've never built a 100% oak project.. but when I need to use it I find it a fine change to work with... manhandling it into the shop's a whole different ballgame...
as for your client....
shoot em...
;)
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I know what you mean. I am not one that has a tender spot for oak.
I work with alot of ash have yet to tire of it. Every board is unique in color an grain while oak seems to be close to the same color and grain thoughout the pile.
Here's a landing I made from ash, trying this with oak would not have the same results. The link has link to other ash items I built for my home also.
http://www.superwoodworks.com/Projects/Stairs.htm
View Image
View Image
View Image
http://www.superwoodworks.com
Garry;
Enjoy your ash while you can. I my part of the USA the emerald ask borer, an import from our Chinese buddies, is laying waste to any and all ash trees. Containment attempts are weak at best.
People in the business say ash will be going the way of chestnut, unfortunately.
Regards,
Jim
I am aware of this Jim. It appears that I am just north of you. The authorities at the Mackinac Straits are trying to delay the enevitible but I'm sure the ash borer will hit the upper peninsula within a year or two.
Garryhttp://www.superwoodworks.com
Garry;
I guess to you I am a troll because I live under the bridge.
Jim
Yeh,
But you are a woodworking troll, which is accepted up here.
You'll be about an hour and twenty minutes from me. You show come on up and show off your catch.
Garry
http://www.superwoodworks.com
Edited 8/26/2005 2:28 pm ET by Garry
Thanks, gotta go so I can drown some worms in Burt Lake tonight.
Regards,
Jim
My sister-in-law lives on Burt Lake on Resort Road.
Good Luck
Garryhttp://www.superwoodworks.com
Righto, Jim. There are darn few ash trees left where I live, as well.
So if the ash goes the way of the chestnut, and that would certainly be a great shame, what will folks use for baseball bats ---- oak?
Roy
Hi RoyH ,
IMO Hickory would make a pretty fair baseball bat , after all they have been used for ax handles for a long time .
dusty
Just when I thought I was out, Philip pulls me back in again!
You guys really should think about rediscovering this wonderful species. Other than its grotesque overuse in the whole furniture and trimwork industries, I can't think of a thing to say against oak. Think of it as a really great song that's been beaten to death on the radio. Sure you learn to hate it, but its still a good song. What you need is to hear new versions. Same thing with oak. White oak is now and will always be one of my favorite woods to work with. Remember, japanese toolmakers choose white oak most often for their chisel handles and plane bodies, and these guys know quality.
By the way, if your doing tinted lacquer on oak for a solid color with delineated grain texture, use ash instead. It works much better. But hurry, it will soon be too expensive to use for this application.
Kinda reminds me of that Sax player that was way overplayed for SOOOOO long (Kenny G). Yeah, good music, but once you get tired of it, that's it. We've heard how wonderful it was for wooden ships, and wiskey kegs, so now what. Ships are steel, wiskey kegs are oak, some things change, other things don't.
But once again, aside from the previously mentioned uses, show me some really good modern designs that look great in oak! Can't wait to get this last piece out of the shop. (I snuck in a bit of black walnut and cherry just because!)
Maybe firewood?
Hi Dusty,
I'd thought of hickory, given that it has been used for a long time in tool handles. But which one? Shagbark, pignut, pecan? Just curious . . .
In this thread, since lots of folks were getting down on oak, and there seems to be an abundant and realtively inexpensive supply, I just thought of another way to "get it out of your shop."
;^) -- Roy
RoyH ,
When I apprenticed we thought Pecan was a flavor , lol .
dusty
I LOVE ASH AND Hickory.. Wonderful woods but most folks (Not knowin' what is really beautiful) loke the wood to look the same..Geeeee They need to get a life... Wood is a living thing and should be shown as such.. Just me...
Hmmm, I seem to have struck a nerve with this topic. And I thought it was just me and I should grow up!
Good to know there are others who don't particularily care for the stuff anymore.....sigh
just me and I should grow up! ???I still LOVE BALSA WOOD!
I hear ya WillGeorge.http://www.superwoodworks.com
Nothing can turn me off of Oak faster than walking into an Oak unfinished furniture store - makes the wood seem as common and cheap as particle board. Oak is wood for the masses, next to pine.
I agree that walking into an oak furniture store can be quite uninspiring. But I wouldn't blame it on the material though. I think a talented artist can take the most mundane of things and put a new spin on it.
I guess I'm the odd one out on this thread. I really respect the material and have come to enjoy making things out of it despite the mass marketing of it. Someday we'll all wake up and the last Oak trees will be succumbing to Oak Wilt, or some bug imported from abroad and maybe then we'll begin to appreciate what we once had. As for ranking Oak up there with Pine that is a pretty generous statement considering that D and better Surgar Pine can fetch as much as twice to three times the going rate of quartered red Oak.
Oh no no , you are not the odd one out.Oak might be under stress in some parts of America,due to abuse , but it is highly valued in many other places and consequently well utilised in applications and styles to suit it's immense character.Philip Marcou
Ok Ted, so have you got some designs that actually are enhanced with the look of either white, or red oak? Flas sawn, quarter sawn, whatever. I really have searched a bit for something that would be inspiring in Oak and have not been fortunate enough to come up with anything. I'm afraid it is the 'oversold' that may have me dismayed but since it is strong, machines relatively well, and is so far, plentiful, I'd like to take advantage of the good stuff without winding up with something that just looks....ok.
Show me what ya got! And I don't mean mission style, arts and crafts, etc. That stuff is also almost oversold I think. I made several pieces like that and initially they were interesting, challenging, fun, then slowely crept into looks the same, how dull, gosh, not again. What design will actually highlight and light up with oak?
Dave,
If you get the chance to go to Asheville NC, check out the wood work (paneling, window casings) at the Biltmore mansion there, also some of their very fine early English antiques.
Much of the furniture built in this country, and in England before 1700 was oak. Might not be any more to your taste than what has already been discussed, but a lot of it would be technically challenging to replicate today.
Regards,
Ray
Oh you must be the mayor of this thread. Or maybe the arbiter of good taste? So if you look at something I made out of Oak it has to impress you for it to be validated as a worhty material?http://www.fna.muohio.edu/woodshop/stairs.html
LOL....mayor? Arbitrator of good taste? I think my wife may argue that sometimes.
Beautiful stairs! Now see, that's what I'm talkin bout. Something interesting instead of rectangles. That's really quite a design! And yes, even with some oak there, it's awfully nice.
Hope the subs don't screw it up too much. Wow!
Dave
This past winter, I sold 1300 bf of white oak, and 1100 bf of red oak, because it was taking up way too much space in my woodshed. I don't like working with it either, and this was the best way to ensure that I wouldn't again in the future. If a customer wants oak, they won't get it built by me.
Jeff
Dave, requesting oak is one my criterion for not accepting a job. I f they cant be moved off that choice I am gone and explain it that way. I wont use balsa, slash pine, meranti or oak and thats all it is for me. No snobbery but just a desire to spend my efforts on something that has as much potential for beauty as a good design. The two of those together is what I strive for-oak is almost never in the mix. aloha, mike
Dave, "what am I missing?"
If you have not used Japanese Oak , or European Oak, both of which are very different to Am. red or white, that is the answer.
Oak needs tweaking. It takes solvent stains nicely-one of few good woods upon which one can inflict this practice and get away with it. Not too heavy. Non abrasive, easy to work. Respected by the general populace. The stuff of legends. Is in good supply. No nasty dusts or smell.
I reckon it is good stuff.
Philip Marcou
Edited 8/26/2005 4:12 am ET by philip
Make something out of sassafras. It looks like oak but is alot more fun say!
I like the grain contrasting grain of oak but I hear what you're saying...it's in every building in North America. Ash and elm are a nice looking alternative that have a more free flowing grain.
The lumber yard in town doesn't have a lot of choices. Pine, poplar, oak or maple. Oak is about a third the cost of Maple and poplar is about a third the cost of oak. While I'm learning how to woodwork, I'll make my first projects in oak because of the relative low cost. Although, I've been practicing dovetail joints using poplar since most of them are going into the fireplace...
I like oak because it is relatively cheap.
geoff
I like workin' with RED oak.. Just pisses me off sometimes...
Can you get to like Oak again?
I would say yes! if you like Pickled Oak... Hard to do right but really looks nice for the 'right' place to show it in..
Am I just tired of it? What am I missing that makes it so popular?
Folks like it?
Other than a couple of projects where I was matching something the customer already had, I really haven't used any oak for quite a while. My most recent projects have been maple or birch with a 'clear' finish - or painted white. :-(
Sound like a case of overload on that material.You're probably like me though-gotta pay the bills.Hope you can get away from it soon and onto other species.Happens to me from time to time,but I always re-gain my appreciation if I haven't used it in a while.
I tend to agree with you if you're talking about flat-sawn Red Oak. Unfortunately, it seems the pattern of choice for paper-covered particle board. Even the real Red Oak used in uninspiring mass market funrniture is depressing.
Heavy-flake Quarter-Sawn White Oak is quite nice, IMHO. Here in the NW, it is one of the hardwoods still reasonably priced. I'd like to do more in cherry, but prices are outrageous, and quality is not very good. You guys back East are lucky with your hardwood supplies.
I tend to think I'm working in cherry or maple all the time, but when reviewing the portfolio there were a surprisingly large number of oak projects over the last few years. Desk is white, others are red. White oak will always be one of my favorite woods. The look, the smell, the color; you just can't beat it!
Edited 8/28/2005 8:40 am ET by Segil
Actually, I like the lines of the table. The rest is a bit too traditional for my tastes, but that's all it is, is a taste difference. Nice work!
I'll have to keep thinking about oak in contemporary pieces. I have seen some nice modernist furniture with what must be an ebonizing finish. Nearly black. On straight grain oak, it looks quite nice with the clean black, and straight grains.
Segil, I am chuffed to see that you at least apreciate Oak and I like the feet on that table. The fact is that Oak is well appreciated all over the world, but folks are crazy: in the '80's American red oak was imported into Zimbabwe and used for high class furniture, then exported all over the show. It was usual to solvent stain it a medium to dark brown.Obviously there is an over supply of it in America and folks are making things like dog kennels and pallets with it....I woild love to have some prime red or white oak here.
Er, Segil, your next mission, should you choose to accept, is to get to grips with the procedure necessary for posting pictures of around 100 whatumacallits-if you speak nicely Forestgirl usually sorts out this problem.Philip Marcou
Edited 8/29/2005 6:46 am ET by philip
I have no disdain for any species in particular, but I share your frustration with people who buy wood with the end goal of making it look like something else.
The ones that really frustate the dickens out of me are those who seem to blindly pick a species without knowing a darned thing about its characteristics, e.g., specifying maple and wanting it stained to look like something else, or the clown who picks oak, but doesn't want to see the grain at all!
What kind of dope are these folks smoking?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I have no disdain for any species in particular, but I share your frustration with people who buy wood with the end goal of making it look like something else. RIGHT ON THERE GUY/Gal? Whatever...Wood is wood and it should stay as it was made... SOrt of like a child.. BUT a little training and tender lovin' care never hurts!
<What kind of dope are these folks smoking?>Dont know about the dope thing but I have only used oak in the last 4 years as a jet black stained or painted material in deference to what I said about it earlier. The grain is nice but the commonality of its use is appalling and its over use goes without saying. It certainly works well, glues well and sands easy but outside of really straight grained material detracts from a designed piece in the way that curly woods or highly figured material can. Its not the species I dont like but more the lack of design that accompanies most of its uses. aloha, mike
Mike,
In my recent quest to find some redeeming use of the stuff, I've found a few pieces around the Portland area that are much as you described. Jet Black (well, pretty close) with vertical grain as a visible texture throughout. Downright attractive! I've had a couple furniture pieces myself that were black and had forgotten. I'll have to give some thought to some simple, contemporary (well modern really) designs and give it a chance.
Heck, there's so much of the stuff available at a reasonable price, there HAS to be a way to utilize it with love again.
Thanks. Thanks very much! Mind if I send you some design ideas sometime? I can always use a fresh eye!
Dave
Portland as in Oregon?
Kevin,
Yup...as in Orygun
Hi, neighbor. I live just west of Portland. But I work on the eastside... east of I-205. I drive thru Portland on my commute to and from work.
Hi Kevin,
I live a bit west myself (between Amity and Hopewell) and comute from the house to the shop via 57 steps on an outdoor staircase (only in Oregon huh?) Good to know there's more than one Orygun person butchering wood for product.
Oh wow. You're a ways south of me. I'd have to look at a map but my guess is just about due south. Maybe a wee bit west too. I'm in Forest Grove. I've certainly been known to butcher wood. Mostly, though, I paint or finish wood that someone else butchered. :::grins:::
I drive thru Portland on my commute to and from work.
The must not be fun. I was a piece of cake when I moved here in 1989, but now, oh brother.
Fortunately, my commute from western Washington County to Hillsboro has stayed the same.
It certainly gets old. If you count Highway 47 as a real highway, I travel on parts of 6 highways... three of them interstates. But, it'd be a much more brutal commute without them, that's for sure. Going in in the morning actually isn't too bad. It's the commute home in the afternoon that sucks.
Your commute doesn't sound too bad. The traffic doesn't really get bad for me until east of the 185th overpass on the Sunset. If I could make close to as much money on the west side I would. If I didn't like Forest Grove so much I'd move. But, I love it here.
Heck, there's so much of the stuff available at a reasonable price, there HAS to be a way to utilize it with love again.Thanks. Thanks very much! Mind if I send you some design ideas sometime? I can always use a fresh eye!You are right, it is the cheapest domestic material and we owe it to ourselves to take advantage of it. I guess we need to get creative. Absolutely send me your ideas, I may do the same to you. aloha, mike
Gaaarrdangeeit, looks like the philistines are on the attack again.Segil, where are you?
I am not about to repeat what I said in previous posts in favour of Oak, but I just want to say that I have just been watching a tv programme about the making of Good Whisky. Jim Beam us American White oak for their barrels, but ONLY ONCE, then the barrels are dismantled and sent to Scotland, where they are used over and over. Very clever , that, and to boot, they produce the best Whisky. As you say "go figure".
Good stuff, Oak- in fact I could go as far as saying that Amreica would have been "discovered" a lot later, had it not been for the use of Oak for the sailing ships....
P.S. I like to drink Whisky now and again as long as the bottle does not have the words "Produced in Scotland under supervision of the British Government" on it. And donations of Southern Comfort are always gratefully received.Philip Marcou
....heck, there's so much of the stuff available at a reasonable price there has to be away to utilise it with love again."
Well that's the issue isn't it-people are plumb abusing a superior timber.
There is plenty available because clever lads some years ago recognised its worth and planted big plantations in North America, now yielding renewable supplies on a sustainable basis.
When properly used it lends itself to handsome and distinctive styles-lots of situations call for this.
I think spraying it black is not too clever-no matter what that furniture salesman may say.I have seen examples of this right here in N.Z-and stuff with medullary rays too.
Philip Marcou
"Its not the species I dont like but more the lack of design that accompanies most of its uses."
Hi Mike,
A few months ago a propsective client asked me to build a cabinet similar to another in my portfolio. Red flags went up when she specified red oak AND said she wanted an off-white piano finish - glass-smooth.
When I suggested a diffuse-porous species, and she remained insistent that red oak be used, I referred he to another cabinetmaker (she wasn't interested in paying enough to make the finishing process profitable).
Years before, someone bought a cabinet I'd built on spec from bubinga and spalted alder, with delicate hand-cut dovetails, and a sanded-in oil finish topped by french polish. She raved about how charming it would look in her home and didn't hesitate to pay the asking price.
I was pleasantly surprised to receive an invitation to a social gathering in her home several months later; when I arrived, I found that she'd applied an opaque crackle finish - her decor was "shabby chic."
I guess there's no accounting for taste... ...at least her check didn't bounce.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
<I guess there's no accounting for taste...>For some its all in their tongue. We all have pieces that we labored to make to a customers spec that ended up like yours...or worse. A big check always consoles me. aloha, mike
I don't like radial sawn 'plain' oak either, and I used to not like oak at all but over the past couple of years I've been reapairing a lot of old stuff with beautiful quarter sawn oak with lots of big 'flakes' and rays in it. I've rebuilt some stuff with quarter sawn veneers and solid quarter sawn oak as well and I really like it now... And white oak is great for outdoor furniture.
To All ,
IMO many could be missing some opportunities to use and create some beautiful pieces . I would agree with the overuse and common place of flat sawn and rotary cut veneers and Oak ,,,,,,,, a bit boring . However as has been mentioned Quarter Sawn and in my case I still use from time to time Rift Sawn Oak and for those not familiar with it , I compare it to vertical grained woods such as Fir as far as the tight straight grain pattern . The veneers are available in Rift and match perfectly in most cases . With a clear finish or very light stain most Oak haters ask , what kind of wood is that ? Try it if you haven't , I think you will enjoy the figure and consistency of the look , much more refined then flat and rotary sawn Oak . The majority of my jobs in the last 5 - 7 years or so have been natural Maple not White Maple , truly a beautiful and interesting wood .
dusty
Good point about rift-cut Oak. It does seem to still enjoy a certain popularity. I've done some bank fixtures in the last year or so which were designed by a top tier international design firm and they chose rift-cut oak. It was almost ebonized so that the grain texture was what the designers were really looking for. And I gotta admit that Oak was ideally suited to that use.
I would have to say, that my most pleasurable building experiences have been with walnut, mahogany and teak...but I have done mostly oak due to cost issues.
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