Being a good little FWW.com visitor, I took a look at the first video on line. Van Dyke’s card scraper break-down. After watching it, with numerous stops and other video difficulties, I felt like I zoomed back to 1979 for the ground work of a debate on “Pins first or Dovetails first” onslaught. The video is loaded with good information but once again… it goes too far with the preparation without some comment/explanation of the effort and return. Brother that’s a mouthful and I expect some scathing returns. Oh no.
I do most of the stuff he does in some different ways to get a scraper ready for FINAL SURFACE results on some figured wood. It works and my hat is off to the video. I prefer Brian Boggs methods — just personal leanings folks.
On the other hand, for those of us in the shop that need a “quick and dirty means of getting rid of deep surface troubles” in a hurry, you don’t want to stop work and spend a bunch of time going thru all of the steps he presents. It just takes time and that’s money.
I keep a card scraper in my back pocket every minute of my day in the shop. When it doesn’t cut aggresively, I put it in the vise and take my bastard mill file and re-file the two edges, burnish the serrated edge and go back to scraping hardwood. When it is looking good(some shallow marks from the rough edge), I pull out my “gee wizz” scraper and put a shiney finish on the surface in a few minutes. Most of the work was done by my old workhorse done with a file in 60 seconds. Not 15 minutes.
My Point: you can remove a whole lot of trouble areas on a high figured piece of wood without spending your entire coffee break honing your card scraper to a perfect burr if you’re in a rush to get the surface workable.
Some are thinking: Forget this guy and pull out the belt sander and let it rip. Sand 220, 400 and .. maybe something higher. Well that works too. In the end … you ask yourself — what was fun??
I like the scraper – I don’t like seeing it presented as piece of equipment reserved for the owners of diamond stones, special file attachments and a position on the staff of a prestigious woodworking school. This is not rocket science. Its a piece of steels with a burr. Don’t get discouraged just start out working up an edge and fumble around a little. My good friend uses glass to scrape and his surfaces are just .. well they look great.
later
Replies
Thanks for your perspective on the card scraper. It's just a piece of steel and we all just refine it to the edge that we want to. As intensive as the Van Dyke video may have been, I think there are things there that will actually save me time. Burnishing first at 90 degrees to squish out some metal. Keeping the bur short. The variety of stones is not the main point; it's two planes coming together at a right angle sharp enough to cut skin. I don't remember the Brian Boggs video being any simpler, just more hurried. Anyway, I admire that you keep a scraper in you pocket; I aspire to that. It's like the outdoor photographer choosing his gear: that $10,000 SLR isn't much good when it's left in the hotel because he wants to travel light.
Dan,
I have not seen the video.
I agree with you about scrapers- especially hand held/card scrapers. Very very very useful simple and versatile tools. Good for shaping and cleaning up curved surfaces as well-far better than rasps in many cases.
Some time ago I made a scraper from a section of a very large power hack saw blade-extremely hard and hard wearing steel of the high speed steel type. Ofcourse it is not flexible, but this is no disadvantage, and there is no question of turning a burr on it-but it still can take shavings or very thin wisps, and the edges last for ever without the need for frequent doctoring.
If I were doing a lot of woodworking I would make a set of them....
Hey Danmart:
I feel compelled to reply because I was the one who shot the video of Bob sharpening his scraper. Perhaps it didn't come across well in the final edit of the video, but the process he described is for a BRAND NEW scraper. Once you do the initial prep as described in the video, it only takes a few passes with the burnisher to tune it up. So, while the initial work might be intensive, it only takes a minute or two to revive it on a regular basis.
Also, Bob emailed me since the video went live and stressed that he didn't want viewers to think this was the only method. There are at least five sharpening methods that he could think of; this is just the one he prefers.
I'll ask Bob to post to this discussion since I know he'll want to clarify any misconceptions. I think we'll all agree, this isn't rocket science.
Matt Berger
FineWoodworking.com
but the process he described is for a BRAND NEW scraper......I would think what is presented in any video or written word is what the author thought would be of help to others. It's the process and steps laid out for us to judge on how best to use in our situation.I use my scrapers ALOT..... as in usually.I see his point and sometimes I'll even just run the scraper over the mill file and never burnish it. Yes I get 'dust' but it still 'smoothes' out the wood and I can go on if I am in a hurry.. With my scrapers I will do a full 'overhall' (like in the video) about once a month or when I drop it on the cement floor!I have three planes that I use and I read some of the posts in here about the steps and processes they go through changing angles and removing edges and whatever. I wonder if they just use them to do this or use them in real work?Not that what they post is wrong. It's just that I would not spent that much time doing it.All is GREAT information if you feel 'that is your thing'..As always, to each their own!
I see his point and sometimes I'll even just run the scraper over the mill file and never burnish it. Yes I get 'dust' but it still 'smoothes' out the wood and I can go on if I am in a hurry..
Will
My point.. well said again. My basic concern was: can I use a scraper without the following:
1. mill file guide
2. diamond stones lined up 3 deep in varying grades
3. waterstones if you want to go all out
Yes. Get a 5.00 card scraper or better yet pull that old rusted saw down from the wall and cut some rectangles. File the edges smooth and burnish them with some hardened steel. Have you ever broken a router bit?? Fine hope you saved it. Use the shaft for now to turn the edge. Try it out??? No dust, no noise, surface starting to look good?? Welcome. Now go to work on that scraper(yep the same one) and make it a killer final surface scraper following the steps outlined in the video. Try some different thickness scrapers-- they can be different.
If you really get a wild hair up your .... try hardening the card scraper again with a map gas torch or hotter. I have hardened some of my "poor" performers in 5 minutes of heat using color as the guide and I have some killer hard scrapers. "Its not rocket science and the investment is pretty small even for a cheap toad like me" Adios
I hear you and garee.. I was just trying to ruffle your feathers a bit... ;>)
This is a good thread. Thanks for starting it and then keeping it on track. Can you share a bit more info on scraper hardening?
-Nazard, torch in hand....
Hardening scrapers
I don't heat treat my scrapers anymore. Not that I did that many but I just didn't get the results that I was hoping for. Years ago, I saw Brian Boggs tuning up a scraper to do some work(not as a demonstration) and I questioned why he went to his file to cut away the edge and didn't reburnish the burr again and just press on?
Brian told me he turned it a couple of times and the edge was case hardened or "compression hardened" in a way. It took me a while(a few years) but I think he had something there.
I make scrapers out of so many pieces of junk, I have stumbled across what works like a champ for me. I love hacksaw blades for making the most intricate moldings you can imagine. I have a pneumatic grinder that I "eyeball the basic shape" and then fine tune with this ugly little dremel tool jig I made up from parts to an Arabian bed pan and a door stop to the out house in Bin Long that no one ever used.
My point: its easy to grind away and make that special tool. It gives you the ability to make that molding the other toads just can not make with their 62 rockwell hardened router bit from the people's republic of wonder tools.
If you screw it up -- the hack saw blade was dull anyhow so put it on the shelf to remind you - you screwed the first one up but you didn't give up. All the best
Matt
I really appreciate the reply and I hope I didn't seem too caustic in my comments about the scraper?? I love that tool. I told my wife: "other than my cordless drill, I want my scraper in the box with me when I go to the final woodworking shop." I am like a one legged man in a butt kickin' contest without that thing.
I like the points made in the video and I take no exception to any point Van Dyke made. None. He did a good job. I just don't want some new guy surfin' thru Knots to think: hey this is the only way to turn off the belt sander and try something different on my new piece of curly maple. My hope is to encourage any rising woodworker to get a handful of scrapers and play around with them. They are close to "Murphy Proofed" with a little effort. I'm babbling here. Again, thank you for the note and I like the video and hope you do more. Out.
Thanks for the note Dan. I'm glad you posted the feedback. Comments like yours help us make our stuff better the next time around. Plus, even Bob agreed that we shouldn't have cut his comments about this being one of several methods to try. Maybe we'll go back and give the video a second edit...
Here is something I put together years ago for a local woodworking newsletter. I later turned it into a video but I don't have that any longer. Keep in mind that there is not "one best process". It's a case of what works for you. But, it's something that should be practiced to get it right. See if it helps.
Here is the way I was taught years ago to sharpen a hand scraper.
The first step is to put the scraper in a vise and using a fine file, file the edge perfectly perpendicular to the sides. Only a couple of strokes should be necessary and this is normally only done on a brand new scraper or one in bad shape. Next, using a fine oil stone (or waterstone these days), hold the scraper flat on the stone and remove any burr and smooth the sides near the edge. Holding the scraper straight up on edge, hone the edge and then lightly remove the burr. There is a tendency for scrapers to dig into a soft waterstone so I use an inexpensive fine oil stone. 400 Wet & Dry sandpaper on a piece of sheet glass (ala scary sharp) lubricated with light oil or WD40 works fine.
Burnishing is the next step. After filing and being sure the edge is flat and 90 degrees to the sides, put the scraper flat down on, and slightly back from, the edge of your bench. Run your burnisher along the flat side of the scraper pressing at so the burnisher is tight at the edge. This starts causing the edge corner to extend. This is a step that burnisher jigs can not do. Now put the scraper in your vise extending up about an inch. With your burnisher, run it along the edge at 90 degrees from the sides. Take 2 or three firm but not too heavy strokes. This causes the corner raised in the first step to be bent toward the sides of the scraper. Then tip your burnisher up slightly (10-15 degrees--really makes no difference) and take two continuous, firm strokes on each edge. That's it.
You will have to try scraping at various angles to find the "sweet spot." As the scraper becomes dull, go through the last three burnishing steps as above. You can burnish 10-20 times before stoning or filing is again required. It takes less time than changing sandpaper in a sander.
I greatly favor a real burnisher for two reasons. First, it is really hard metal. Second, it it highly polished. Both of these attributes mean that there is little chance of galling (or tearing metal from) the scraper edge. Galling makes for less than a smooth cut. The smoother the burnisher, the smoother the burr. Screwdriver shafts may or may not be hard enough and the chrome plating will eventually deteriorate. Drill bits are also variable in hardness. Using a valve stem from a car engine that has been highly polished is an alternative but, why not just get a burnisher?
Finally, you can control the aggressiveness of the scraper by the way you file/stone it and how you use the burnisher to make the burr. Stoning with a fine stone after filing and then using lighter pressure on your burnisher will give you a less aggressive but finer cutting burr and a smoother finish. I have a thicker scraper that I sharpen to an aggressive cutting burr that I use for initial work (ie: ripple removal after jointing/planing) and then a set of thinner scrapers that I put a finer edge on for finish smoothing and cutting down and smoothing varnish finishes.
Finally, to prevent frustration, scrapers work best on hard woods. Using them on pine is generally unsuccessful.
For an excellent description with pictures get Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing."
Can't miss with those steps. Nice.
Bob's video is excellent. I whole heartedly give it 2 thumbs up!
I suspect that many of us do the same thing, but it is just great to see another do it and get this confirmed.
I posted a pictorial tutorial (to the Ubeaut forum) a few years ago. I will paste it below for quick reference. It is essentially the same as Bob - just a few minor differences, perhaps you will prefer, maybe you won't. Also, I prepare 8 sides on a scraper - the short ends as well. I like the rigidity that these offer as there are times when you do not want to hollow the surface.
The basic tools of the trade here include a fine file (to joint the edge), a 1200 grit diamond stone (to smooth the edge), a holder/guide that lives another life as a blade holder in my belt sander grinder jig, and 1200/8000 waterstones.
From beginning to end, an edge will take about 5 minutes. This is reduced to about 1 minute if all I am doing is creating a new burr. The full treatment (which is depicted here) is only necessary when you have overstayed your welcome on an edge (generally after I have re-burred an edge about 5 times).
Also note that the following pictures depict one edge being prepared. I prepare all four sides at the same time. And I also prepare both sides of the edge, thus giving 8 sides ready for use.
#1 - Holder with file (for jointing edge).
#2 - Holder with diamond stone
#3 - Holder with diamond stone (smoothing the edge)
#4 - After the edge has been flattened and smoothed, the faces must be smoothed.
The card is taken to the waterstones, first the 1200 and then the 8000. Do this in the same way that you do the back of a chisel. You will have to use your imagination here since I did not take pictures of this common activity.
#5 - Drawing the edge (this facilitates the burr)
The burnisher is held about 5 degrees to the face and 5 moderate strokes are made. Lubricate the metal surface with a drop of oil.
#6 - Turning the burr
The burnisher is held at about 10 degrees to the edge and 5 moderate strokes are made.
#7 - The Result!!!
Shavings in hard Jarrah.
Regards from Perth
Derek
You got to be happy when you see that.
Well done.
Just one question on tooling. I see that you are using the diamond stone without the circles. Do you find the diamond stone like you have in the photo to be better suited for honing than the stones with the circles?? I am dragging my feet on getting some of the DMT stones and I am getting mixed feedback. What is your cut on the two types of stones??
Dan
Hi Dan
The diamond stone in the picture is at least 10 years old. I cannot recall the manufacturuer, that is if it was made by DMT or not. I do have a Coarse/Extra Coarse DMT with-the-holes. They do feel different in use. I would not like to use the DMT with narrow blades as they get deflected.
Diamond stones have a poorer rep among users for longevity than is advertised by the manufacturers. As a result, I do not, as a rule, use the diamond stones on steel - with the exception of blades that would otherwise tear up or gouge out my waterstoness (even the Shaptons, which are harder than many). So the C/EC DMT diamond stones are really for flattening my waterstones. The extra fine diamond stone in the picture is great for the difficult blades.
Note also, with the exception of the DMT 8000, a diamond stone will not get the edge as smooth (= sharp) as a waterstone. On the other hand, diamond paste is fantastic - and cheap! Try some spread on a flat piece of hardwood. You may be converted.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, Where are you getting the diamond paste from? Carbatec?Philip Marcou
Hi Philip
I got it off eBay and the 'Net. It was really cheap.
The grits I chose were 40, 10, 2, 1, and .5 These are all oil based pastes.
I believe that you can get water based paste from Tools for Working Wood (from memory).
I just cut a few scraps of Jarrah, made sure that they were super flat, then rubbed a pea-sized piece over the top. Renew every now-and-then. The only downside is that it can get a little messy (oily). But everyone should try it out.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Yet still one more way...
I read this article by Christopher Schwartz in a woodworking magazine. His method is the same as usual except when it comes to polishing the flat surface of the scraper. Rather than honing the entire surface, he recommends placing the scraper on the stone or micro sandpaper and placing a very very thin flexible ruler under the opposite edge of the scraper to act as a "lift".
When honing this will create an incredibly small polished secondary bevel right at the edge. This is accomplished with only a few strokes. This can also be used on the backs of chisels and plane irons.
I use a powerful magnet to act as a handle when honing surfaces.
Don
Hi Don
Yes, I read about Chris Schwarz recommending the Rule Trick on scraper blades. I believe that will indeed work. However, I would prefer not to use it and rather spend the time flattening the blade. Otherwise every time you rejoint the edge you will also need to redo the microbevel.
That is if the above works (although if Chris says it does I would believe him). Logically, a microbevel will make it hard to "draw" an edge. How does one then create a burr?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Right Derek,
There is no drawing the edge with the microbevel. I really can't tell any difference. This may be because I have several scrapers and rotate them until they are all dull. I then sharpen the whole batch at once.
I've enver had much luck returning a bur. I've got one bunrisher that is a triangle and the tip is supposed to push the bur back up. It works but not for very long. I usually file,hone,and turn the bur very quickly.
I just tried to draw an edge on a secondary polished bevel. It seemed to work just fine. The burnisher just has to be tipped a "hair".
This is analogize to hollow gringing chisels on a wheel (concave) and then honing a 1/32 secondardy bevel. It works in both cases only this/these methods are so quick and NOT labor intensive. Why hone the entire surface of a scraper when the only true desirable action occurs at the intersection of edge and surface.
Well done Don!
I don't think that I will try it, nevertheless. I would rather take the time to flatten the blade - once. Then I do not have to spend the time re-doing the microbevel each time. But it works, and I would use it if the blade was significantly out-of-flat.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I am responding to your message to Dan, about diamond stones. You indicated that they wear faster than the salesmen tell you. My question to you is: how did you come to this conclusion? I am not arguing with you. I am asking because this topic has come up a number of times, and my meager experience is contrary to your conclusion. I would be happy to change my ideas, and will do so if you do what you always do, and show how you arrived at this conclusion.My experience is based on six months at Woodcraft. We have one DMT fine stone which is on display. An incredible number of people try it out on their knives and on the chisels that are lying alongside it. No one bothers to use water or to wipe it off, so it does not get treated well. Yet it keeps on cutting. People often ask me how it can cut when it feels so smooth. I (being a man of few words :-)) give them a knife and ask them to try it out. The most frequent response is "Wow", it really cuts. So on to the shop at Woodcraft. There are three diamond stones back there which are used daily by all sorts of people. Best I can tell, no one treats them well (eg water and cleaning and drying). Same thing, they keep on cutting, despite lots of use.Before people buy a diamond stone, I let them feel the demonstrator fine stone, which feels very smooth, and a brand new one, just like it. The new one is much rougher to the touch. I tell them that my experience, at home, is that after four or five uses, especially in flattening the backs of chisels or plane blades, the inital agressiveness goes away, and they remain in this "evolved" state for a long time. I tell them that I do not have any good definitive data on how long these modern DMT diamond stones will last, but I believe they will last most hobbyists (that I know) for more than a lifetime. Most of these folks probably don't sharpen more than once a month. Everyone who comes in asking basic questions on sharpening gets the same response from me. "Go to the book section and look at the two big books on sharpening" (Lie Nielsen and Lee) Anyway, if you have any empirical data or any other good info on how long modern diamondstones will last under different conditions, I would love to know it. I have heard of one guy who tried to use a diamond stone at a community workshop which was no longer cut. It was very well used. I believe that is not a useful piece of data to predict longevity in the home workshop.Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel
The issue about the longevity of diamond stones has two paths.
In the first, some will cite the fact that diamonds will lose their "bite" after a short while. I think that most recognise and accept that there is a "breaking in" period, and that this is just the diamonds being levelled. After this, they continue to cut, less aggressively but as designed. This is not a problem.
The second issue is the one of note, that is, that the diamond stones wear out. That they do this if too much pressure is exerted, or when used with steel for an extended period. I have noticed the former, and has have read knowledgeable experts (such as Larry Williams and Steve Knight), who conduct a lot of sharpening, state that diamonds just do not last as long as other methods (such as waterstones). Both also state that diamond stones are great for flattening other sharpening stones, such as oil stones and water stones, since these abrade the diamonds differently from steel.
I have not ever been in a position to test this myself.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thanks for the info on diamond paste:I plan to get some for use in Cunning Plan B.
Re diamond plates wearing out: I think if you get a good quality one they last for ....well I don't know, because my two DMT plates that I have had for almost 20 years still cut faster than any oil stone I have. For 15 years I used those almost daily. I use them with kerosene.
I did have one other (forgotten the maker name) which quickly became next to useless.
Larry Williams says they do not favour diamond plates because of this wearing out issue-so I wonder which makes he has been using, and also I wonder if it is possible that dressing certain oil stones such as the man-made types causes degradation of the diamonds or base ?
Those cheap ones that come in sets of three definitely are not good-but what do you expect for $20? However these are good for dressing /flattening other stones especially those black water stones.
I have never used my DMT plates for flattening or dressing- only for steels and carbides- that is what they are designed for.
Philip Marcou
I have a DMT diamond plate where the diamonds have worn away in one area along one edge, although the rest of the plate is fine. So it seems like there may be some variability in how firmly the diamonds are bonded to the metal plate.
-Steve
Phillip:
I have a DMT coarse plate that for about five years I only used to flatten the backs of my chisels and plane irons. Read an article that said the diamond plates were great for flattening waterstones, without harm to the diamond plate so I tried it. The diamond plate is now pretty much worthless for dressing chisels and plane irons. The cut is gone, takes forever to work the back of a tool. Still flattens my waterstones in reasonable amount of time (though longer than when I first started this practice about 6 months ago). Next time I pony up for a diamond stone it will not be used to flatten my waterstones.
On a visit to Garrett Hack's farm in Vermont last summer I got next to him while he was "prepping-up" for a class he was presenting out in western Canada. I watched him work the basics and then out came the diamond paste. Mirror surface to the back of his chisels. He keeps a tight ship and his edges are very impressive. He did a 10 episode video run on FWW and I think he did a short blurb on the paste?? I think?
Funny thing: his whole shop has a feeling about it. You don't want to go outside. Now that's saying a bunch. Outside his front door is a beautiful pasture with lots of vegetables growing and his work horse grazing while he waits for the next hay run.
By the way, he took down the building in another part of Vermont and reassembled the brick structure in the side of a hill for the thermal gain. Enough. Let's say the guy is no sluff.
Water down the drain(the other way)
Dan
Do your remarks apply to monocrystaline diamonds, or perhaps only to polycrystaline which are known to be far less durable (you get what you pay for). My DMT stone have been infinitely more functional than cheaper water and oil stones. They cut great and do not require flattening. Sharpening is great . . . up to a point!
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