Replies

1. 
   dirtstirrer | Sep 20, 2005 07:14am | #1

   Hi Duke.  I think I remember hearing that water will cause the ceder to bleed out some chimical that will destroy copper.  Sorry I can't be sure, my memory is getting a bit fuzzy.  Anybody else heard of this?

   If you go with it, McMaster Carr is an excellent source.

    

   Steve
2. 
   Fred | Sep 20, 2005 03:02pm | #2

   Maybe I worry too much, but I would never put heavy metals (like copper) in my garden soil.

   Cedar is very rot resistant. I have very old cedar posts in my garden that are actually salvaged fence posts. Never needed to replace any. 

   Though I don't like slogs, heavy metal poisoning is a lot nastyer!

   Fred

    

1. 
   dirtstirrer | Sep 20, 2005 05:07pm | #4

   Fred I think the risk from your pipes would be a lot higher then any risk like Dukes application.

    Steve

3. 
   keyridge | Sep 20, 2005 04:23pm | #3

   Utilizing copper to discourage slugs is common advice, not sure about leaching the metal into the soil. Here is a forum link where you can get some good advice from those who do this for a living: http://216.40.250.71/boards/board.cgi?

   I wouldn't be concerned about cedar rot, but if you are, just put in a gravel bed under the foundation timbers for drainage. Slugs, I haven't found too much to be effective. Copper, eggshells, stale beer (who in the world would have stale beer!)....hand picking, spraying mild detergent and water directly on the slugs--kills them...all time consuming. One good suggestion I haven't tried yet, put a covering of sand over your gardening bed. The heat build up discourages slugs from crawling to the nearest broccoli plant.

   Greenhousing can be quite rewarding, all the best. Chris

4. 
   frenchy | Sep 20, 2005 05:21pm | #5

   dukeone,

     A couple of points, cedar's rot resistance comes from the tannic acid in it..  Most plants tolerate moderate amounts of it but you will find some that react poorly to it and refuse to grow.   It's not a problem untill the cedar or it's sawdust leeches into the ground.  if you always pot your plants or you don't use cedar for the beds etc. there will be little chance of a problem..

     Copper too reacts to the tannic acid by trying to stay shiney, anotherwords you are leeching off copper with each rainfall if the rain runs off the cedar and onto the copper..

    Now the rest of the story.. Virtually any metal you use will do the same, galvanized, aluminum, lead, stainless steel, etc. 

     While plastics are usually immune to the effects of tannic acid leeching,  well ugh!  Who wants them?   Stone like granite is ever so slightly affected by the acidic wash from cedar but you can expect several ten thousand's of  years before it should become a problem.   ;-) 

1. 
   dukeone | Sep 20, 2005 07:12pm | #6

   Frenchy; So if I seal the cedar with the epoxy sealer and only the copper touches the soil, that should be reasonable?  Or just forget the copper and put the greenhouse on stones or some other way of elevating it? Geezz I thought this was going to be uncomplicated. Wrong again. Don't want to put plastic on anything if I can help it because of the esthetics. At least when the epoxy dries it won't react with the wood or the soil, and should minimize any leaching, I hope! I could use the sealer under the copper; what do you think about that?

   Thanks for the help once again, DukeKenneth Duke Masters
   The Bill of Rights
   December 15 1791
   NRA Endowment Member
   LEAA Life Member
   CRPA Member

1. 
   frenchy | Sep 20, 2005 07:52pm | #7

   dukeone,

     epoxy is plastic,,  I don't like using it  under or around wood since wood moves so much and epoxy is rigid plastic and won't move..

    Oh there are times where you have to use it as an adhesive and you just accept that sooner or later that joint will fail..

     Yeh,   I'd set it on stones to get it the required 8 inches off the ground.. Now here you need to carefully understand  something.. Stones cannot and will not absorb moisture so if it's sitting on stones (and only stones)  other than dealing with wind or possible ground upwelling  you are fine..  However mortor/ cement  does and can absorb water..  in fact if you set concrete on  the ground it will litterly suck water from the ground and cause the wood in contact with it to rot. 

1. 
   dukeone | Sep 21, 2005 03:54pm | #9

   Frenchy: I got the idea for the epoxy from the FWW article on outdoor furniture finishing, it is a two part epoxy sealer I am considering, I've already started construction using PVA glue.

   DukeKenneth Duke Masters
   The Bill of Rights
   December 15 1791
   NRA Endowment Member
   LEAA Life Member
   CRPA Member

1. 
   frenchy | Sep 21, 2005 06:54pm | #12

   dukeone, 

     Maybe I should give you my standards to see if your goals and my standards are compatable.. When I build I try to build sustanably.. that is whatever I build I want it to last at least as long as it took to grow the materials in it..

     Thus I look at things from a very long term perspective, often hundreds of years.. Perhaps your greenhouse isn't intended to last that long.. in which case the use of plastics is fully acceptable..

     Wood swells and shrinks as it gets damp and dry's out.. That swelling and shrinking can be accomidated by fasteners such as nails and screws which have a slight amount of flex and give to them.. Glue by it's nature doesn't allow such movement..  Often it will hold acceptably well for an acceptable period of time..  especially if it's backed up by other fasteners..

     Now I use glue on all of my outside trim  (which is black walnut)  and I use PVA glue as well but it's an addition to other fasteners used (stainless steel since the tannins in Black walnut will cause regular nails to rust)   In my case I am backing up the fasteners to ensure that the trim doesn't warp away from it's assigned location..  sort of a belt and suspenders approach if you will..

2. 
   dukeone | Sep 22, 2005 05:23am | #14

   Frenchy: I am just about three years into woodworking. I spent many years as an industrial electrician and always tried to do craftsman like work, even if it was conduit in the basement of a water treatment plant. I would define ''craftsman like'' as neat, straight, tightly attached, long lasting and forward looking(meaning room for expansion and changes, maybe only relative to electric work or plumbing). I figured this would give me a leg up learning w.w. and I think it has helped but I have a long way to go. I hate to spend ten minuets on something that is halfass, even if it is only a temporary or emergency fix. Now of course w.w. extends into art which I have never done before and won't get to for some time, but I always aim high and hope to build, someday, something really beautiful and original (and long lasting).

   So from your note you think I should use screws or finishing nails to back up the pva in this application? Is cedar one of those woods that causes a reaction with plain fastners? This project is essentially a box made of window sash with a door in back and no bottom. It will be fully exposed to the weather. If I remember old windows I have taken apart to salvage the glass had nails though the m&t or saddle joints.

   DukeKenneth Duke Masters
   The Bill of Rights
   December 15 1791
   NRA Endowment Member
   LEAA Life Member
   CRPA Member

3. 
   frenchy | Sep 23, 2005 07:47pm | #20

   dukeone,

     Yes Cedar is a reaction wood. that tries it's level best to rust nails or screws. Cedar like black walnut or white oak has a hign tannin level and it's the tannins that protect the wood from decay..

      That forces you to use either stainless steel or manganeze braonze,  (well you could also use plain old brass but it's not nearly as expensive or sexy))  ;-)  another words you need to use non ferrious metals..

       Realize that only the heart wood of cedar is decay resistant and try not to have any early wood exposed..

    

4. 
   frenchy | Sep 21, 2005 06:57pm | #13

   dukeone

       If you intend to use the two part epoxy as a "paint" that is a totally differant story.. all finishes by their nature are temporary and require periodic replacement..

     When "painting" anything you know going in that soon you will be back repainting it..  Just the nature of things..

5. 
   TomT226 | Sep 21, 2005 01:43pm | #8

   Built a nice GH with cedar and CCA material.  Termites crawled over the CCA and ate the cedar trim.  Put your cold frame on ACQ and rocks, and trim with cedar.

1. 
   dukeone | Sep 21, 2005 04:00pm | #10

   Tom: What is ACQ? Is that the new chemical for pressure treated wood? This project will sit right in the raised bed of the garden so I'd be reluctant to use any treated wood. My local McBeath has teak shorts for a reasonable price would it be worthwhile to put some of them under my coldframe?

   Thanks, DukeKenneth Duke Masters
   The Bill of Rights
   December 15 1791
   NRA Endowment Member
   LEAA Life Member
   CRPA Member

1. 
   TomT226 | Sep 22, 2005 12:56pm | #15

   ACQ is the "new" treated wood.  CCA is the "old."  The old had some traces of arsenic in the solution, so it has been discontinued...mostly.

   Having built some cold-frames and a green house or two, treated lumber is the way to go (IMHO) for ground contact, or even sill plates on slab construction within 1' of the soil surface.  The amount of chemicals leaching from 16' of 4X4 into your traansplants would be negligable, and probably offset by the insecticide already present in your garden soil.

   If you do use ACQ, be sure to use coated or stainless steel fasteners.  You can make the frame to set on a foundation of cinder block, and use the 4X4's to create a moveable and secure frame.

2. 
   frenchy | Sep 21, 2005 06:43pm | #11

   Tom,

     I don't have any experiance with termites.  It's too cold here for them.  We do have carpenter ants though, as long as the wood is 8 inches or more above the soil ants won't build tunnels to get to it.

     I should have mentioned that not all rocks won't absorb water. For example sandstone is as bad as cement/concrete... Some of the softer clay rocks are capable of absorbing water as well.

1. 
   TomT226 | Sep 22, 2005 12:59pm | #16

   Heard about the Formosan termites?  They eat wood, plastic, grout, and some cases concrete.  Don't know if they like cold or not.  After Katrina and Rita, they may be headed your way...

1. 
   frenchy | Sep 23, 2005 07:48pm | #21

   TomT226

       How do they like ICE?   heh, heh, heh!    I arrage for this winter to get really cold, say 30 below or so and see if they remembered to bring sweaters,,  ;-)

6. 
   MichaelPB | Sep 22, 2005 11:01pm | #17

   Copper is very pretty and works great against slugs until it tarnishes.  You can't coat it with anything to prevent tarnishing as that prevents the electrolytic reaction that makes slugs and snails not want to cross it.

   Works great for about half a season then you can either sand it again or leave it off.  I just put out a saucer of beer and dump it and the slugs out the next day.  Only have to do it for about a week or so and y ou get them.

7. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 23, 2005 01:10am | #18

   I have had cedar on my house for years... Only places I ever had a problem with is if there was running water or contact with earth or things like wet leaves..

   Aluminum alot cheaper! But Copper is CLASS...

8. 
   Glaucon | Sep 23, 2005 01:21am | #19

   Two things:

   Cedar at or below grade will rot, slowly, but inevitably.  Treated wood would last longer at grade level.

   Copper and cedar are frequently used in roofing applications.  I just had my house re-roofed in western red cedar, and copper flashing is used at the peak and half way down to prevent moss (a US Forest Service rec).  So if you do combine cedar and copper, you'll be in good company.  Copper is not particularly toxic- not a heavy metal, hence the use of copper supply pipes in plumbing (the Romans used lead, not what I would recommend but it did give us the word "plumber").

   Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

9. 
   maddog3 | Oct 02, 2005 08:34pm | #22

   Hi, Are you still there, I found this link, its from the Copper Industry, so it may be slanted toward them, but,

   http://www.copper.org/health/homepage.html

   whether it helps ,anyway, I had some Cu foil from some 15Kv cable, ....I know you can appreciate that, and I used it around a small cedar planter to add some flair and to keep slugs out.
   I had to wrap the cedar ,since adhesives won't work, and the wood seems ok ....FWIW

   "
1. 
   dukeone | Oct 02, 2005 11:06pm | #23

   MD3: Found the copper at "Nimrod Hall Copper" on the web. I bought .01 x 6'' material and will try to form it and solder the edges with lead free solder. Don't know what I'll do as far as sealing it to the frame, maybe some good quality silicone and some bronze screws which I have on hand. Why does every project expand to take all the available time? KDMKenneth Duke Masters
   The Bill of Rights
   December 15 1791
   NRA Endowment Member
   LEAA Life Member
   CRPA Member

1. 
   maddog3 | Oct 03, 2005 03:07pm | #24

   HAHA, yeah, my first WW tools were 2 skil saws from the hardware store,and I was able to build some patio furn. with those and a simple mitre gage, since then, the tool inventory has changed dramatically..$$$, and now I can build the same things in almost 4X the time"

2. 
   frenchy | Oct 03, 2005 07:07pm | #25

   dukeone,

    you can use either stainless steel, copper nails, copper screws, or as you already know sicone bronze screws if you really have a cost no object project..

     Al of the above are nonferrious and will work and last a long time

1. 
   dukeone | Oct 03, 2005 08:25pm | #26

   Frenchy: I have some #6 x 1/2'' bronze screws on hand and will probably use them, but I think copper nails would go with the design. I am hoping this will be my first project that will be nice enough to post. I'm a bit confused on using the rail and stile bit set (Freud): do I run the double cutter bit all the way past the mortises on the stiles and then cope the rail where they meet? I have the instructions and bought a book but I'm still not sure. None of the pictures are that clear.

   Thanks, DukeKenneth Duke Masters
   The Bill of Rights
   December 15 1791
   NRA Endowment Member
   LEAA Life Member
   CRPA Member

1. 
   frenchy | Oct 05, 2005 12:38am | #27

   dukeone.

     I don't know which rail and style set you got but mine has the profile of the rail on it so you just set the rail over the style and they cope each other perfectly..

    I wish I could post pictures darnit!