Replies

1. 
   Vibart2 | Oct 29, 2002 07:29am | #1

   I would deliver the drawings by hand if they don't give you the job the drawings leave with you. You can't just keep on giving your time away. It either that or spend some time putting together what you will tell the customer about the time it takes to design & draw what they want & that you must charge x amount of dollars. Architects charges for their work so should you. Maybe the price could be higher (assuming that they don't give you the job) & you could explain to the customer that if they give the job to you the cost for the drawing would be 10% or 20% less. In any case they need to give you at least 1/2 the full price for the drawing & sign an agreement to pay the rest at the full rate if they don't want you to do the work or the agreed % when the job is done. You should be charging for all the material in a project up front anyway.  My father always charged for all the material to build a kitchen or anything cabinet wise up front. This keeps the customer from backing out or at least keeps you from losing the cost of the material. Plus you should have a signed agreement anyway.

1. 
   camel | Oct 29, 2002 05:25pm | #4

   Bart- Thanks for the reply.  I've found it's better to fax the drawings for a couple reasons.  I've never faxed a drawing and got a call back the same day saying o.k. let's go ahead w/ it.  I think it's better to let them ponder and think about it.  The jobs are usually somewhere between $5- 13K dollars.  That's alot of money to me.  And for them it's an investment, a home improvement if you will.  It's not a snap decision thing, although  I wish it worked that way.  And yeah I don't buy a board til I get a signature on a proposal and 50% to start.  Depending the size of the job, I sometimes get a draw in between.John E. Nanasy

2. 
   gweisenburge | Oct 29, 2002 07:34am | #2

   Spokeshave,

   About ten years ago, Taunton published a book by a San Francisco contractor on running a successful contracting business. I wish I could remember it's name and author, because it'd be worth a second read - I loaned (gave) it to a friend. In it, the author discussed what I now call my "Price Planning Agreement/Proposal." I use it for large job prospects, like multi room cabinet/furniture jobs. I ask these clients, whether they have plans or not, to agree to a minimum agreement price of $1000 to $1500 before I even begin an estimate. It's not necessary for clients I've worked with before, but it weeds out "tire kickers" who I don't know. If prospective clients are serious, they understand that their estimate may take me a day or three for just a preliminary price. They're smart enough to know that built in furniture is the most visible, valuable, and complicated finishing touch to a home's interior, and they're willing to plan it thoroughly form the beginning.

   For their money I give them a preliminary price, which includes plans (I draw them on the computer, with Cabnetware), plus a sample or two for staining and comparison, and I'll meet with them again, along with their architect and general contractor, after making changes to original plans and estimates. On jobs that top six figures, I may spend several days pricing and planning, but there's a limit, individually set, and I ask for $85/hour for time I spend beyond that limit. If I'm their cabinetmaker, the Price Planning Agreement and the money they've spent become part of our final contract; if they find somebody else, I keep the money, because I earned it, and they keep their valuable plans.

   If you'd like a copy of my boilerplate agreement, email me.

   Gary 

1. 
   Sancho | Oct 29, 2002 05:04pm | #3

   Hey Gary I would be interested inna copy. Would you send me one please [email protected] thanks.

   Heres a example of a simular idea from Breaktime by Sonny Lykos

   http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E

   At Darkworks cut to size made to burn......Putty isnt a option

   Edited 10/29/2002 10:08:37 AM ET by Ron Teti

2. 
   craigmoe | Nov 01, 2002 03:52am | #15

   Gary,

   I am guessing the book you mentioned was "Running a Successful Construction Company" by David Gerstel.  I also read it about 10 years ago, and thought it was very worthwhile.

   Craig

3. 
   SgianDubh | Oct 29, 2002 05:35pm | #5

   John, I kind of have to ask the question, "What drawings?"  Bring in or send your plans, etc., for a  first consultation at my workshop, and I'll have a look. Failing that I'll do a wee sketch on the back of a cigarette packet, and a very rough idea of cost for free. After that, everything else is surely on the meter, isn't it?

   I do similar with repairs and restorations. Bring the item into my workshop and I'll do an assessment and estimate at no charge. Ask me to go to their place to suit them, and I like to collect between $100- $150 'earnest' money up front (depending on my travel distance) non-refundable if they don't accept my estimate, but deductible from the final bill if I do the job. I got tired of people using me to estimate repair costs on furniture damaged in shipping for the single purpose of stiffing their insurance company. Slainte. 

   Some stuff I've made.
1. 
   camel | Oct 29, 2002 06:58pm | #8

   Richard, thanks for the reply.   I appreciate and understand where you're coming from.  Thing is, my work or customers aren't the same calibur as yours.  Not yet, that is.  I feel like if I don't do a detailed drawing, I won't get my point across completely.  I've got many jobs because the "other" guy came in unprofessionally and just said "trust me it will be nice".  A customer told me that a guy actually said that to them.  Plus, by doing a drawing, I work out most construction details in my head as I'm doing the drawing.  And I work off from it as I'm building the job, as far as dimensions and what it is susposed to look like.Plus I think by doing a drawing, it makes the customer feel better about spending the money, and may even persuade them a little.  I'm not sure.  I'm just learning as I go. Thanks.John E. Nanasy

1. 
   SgianDubh | Oct 30, 2002 02:48am | #9

   I guess it depends on the client, and what you feel is right for your business, John. In my experience very few, other than fellow woodworkers, architects, interior designers, and other technical trades, such as engineers can make head nor tail of working drawings, which is what I'm assuming you're asking for help with. I find most 'general' clients understand sketches, usually using perspective, pencil, and some colour, and maybe a few samples of finish and timber, etc., better.

   The attached sketches are the sort of thing I run up. (I'm not the best sketcher in the world, ha, ha.) I can usually work out pretty closely what a job will cost from these. But maybe you're talking of a run of built in cabinets, or something. For these projects, I still do a sketch, but I'll often do a simple scaled elevation too just for my pricing purposes. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.

   
1. 
   Marcello | Oct 30, 2002 03:20am | #10

   I agree with this method.  Those sketches are clear and to the point.  They get the feel of the project to the client.  No more detailing is necessary...until you are hired.  At which point the "nuts and bolts" get worked out.  The preliminary sketches are a way of marketing your services and giving the client an idea of the finish product.  It can be said the details will be developed and presented to the client for final approval once they have signed on the dotted line. 

   Spokeshave: Ask for the retainer at that point.  If the client changes his/her mind and you have completed a portion of the drawings, then you can refund them minus your hourly rate spent in those drawings.

   Marcello

2. 
   camel | Oct 30, 2002 04:05am | #11

   Thanks to all, some great advice that I will take.  Those are some nice sketches.  I seen them in the Design article in Woodwork, which was great.  Basically what I was looking for by starting this thread was how to go about charging for the time spent on doing drawings when I don't get the job.  I got that answer and alot more too.  Thanks again, John.John E. Nanasy

1. 
   Lilshaver | Oct 30, 2002 04:59am | #12

   I gave up going to new clients homes for the first meeting. I often found myself spending too much time going to their place "to see the space." Then, they also wanted a "few ideas". By going to them, I felt that I had already lost leverage that would get me a design fee. Nowadays when I get a cold call from a new client, I invite them to my shop where they can see work in progress, meet me, and view photos of old work. They also see my shop which, I point out to them, is a real reflection of the type of designer and builder I am. I let them know that it's important to me that they are comfortable hiring me. Furniture is personal, and they should like the person making it. At that meeting, lasting from ten minutes to a half hour, if they like me and my work, we talk about what it is they want. I let them know that the clock starts when I start designing whether or not I actually do the job. With every successful job, the client has agreeed to those terms. Others will pester me for a "ballpark" price which I will give if possible. However, those people usually are not the ones that call back. In any case, by meeting at my shop, I have control of the situation and haven't spent an inordinate amount of time.

4. 
   PlaneWood | Oct 29, 2002 06:01pm | #6

   Tell your customers up front how your fees are structured.  That you'll do an estimate, with drawings, but that the drawings stay with you until the contract is signed or a positive agreement is reached.  Or, that the customer can purchase a copy of the drawings should they decline the work.  Have a paragraph at the bottom that explains that you retain all ownership rights and that the drawings are copyright protected.  It's no different than publishing a book.  You might want to differentiate between 'drawings' and 'sketches'.

   What would stop a potential customer from giving the drawings to someone else to do the work??  The drawings are intellectual properties that belong to you.  You maybe should get each set notarized and dated.  That would serve to show that you consider them to be your property and would establish legal proof, should that become necessary.

   The only time I ever got involved in such was many years ago when a guy wanted a large number of gun and fishing rod cabinets made.  He wanted drawings rendered of each one.  I told him how much time would be involved just to make the drawings.  He said that if he didn't use me, that he would reimburse me for my time.  Once he got a few estimates and figured out how cheap I was, I got the job!  The final price included the time to do the drawings.

   ps - The reason I was so cheap was because I had logged and cured the walnut myself.  Having total control of the source material gave a definite advantage.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
   PlaneWood

1. 
   gweisenburge | Oct 29, 2002 06:21pm | #7

   Mike,

   Keeping drawings as copyrighted, intellectual property is fine, but it doesn't address the cost of producing the drawings in the first place. I long ago threw away the reams of drawings of projects that I never built. They're worthless, but my time isn't. So I do as Sgian does and produce, at my desk, only basic ten minute sketches. If a prospective client wants more, then I tell them that I'm on the meter, expect to be paid out front, and I present them with my Price Planning Agreement. This is how I "qualify" the client's seriousness, and if they are, they respect me and my needs. If they aren't, I don't need them as clients, because they're the ones I'll have trouble with somewhere down the line.

   Namaste,

   Gary

   ps:  I think I'd be careful trying to be the cheaper bidder. When I've used my Ebac kiln to carefully dry material, I charge a premium. I rather find myself within the higher priced proposals, because I believe my work is within that range of quality. Sure I can do more economical projects, but I don't include custom cured walnut in that grade of work.

   pps:  Running a Successful Construction Company is David Gerstel's book I mentioned in an earlier post. Goto:  http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070640.asp

   Edited 10/29/2002 11:30:30 AM ET by Gary Weisenburger

   Edited 10/29/2002 11:35:55 AM ET by Gary Weisenburger

   Edited 10/29/2002 11:37:39 AM ET by Gary Weisenburger

5. 
   b1gcountry | Oct 30, 2002 04:29pm | #13

   Your portfolio plays a big role in getting clients. If you can show them and impress them with some work you have done in the past, you will have a leg up on the competition already. Its not that I wouldn't charge for drawings, I just wouldn't bother with detailed drawings until after the contract is signed.

   Tom

1. 
   camel | Oct 31, 2002 08:05am | #14

   Tom- I totally agree with you.  I don't have a professional portfolio yet, but am working on it.  The past two years all my work has come from two big subdivisions an hour from where I live.  I did one job there and it has been a trickle effect ever since.  Thing is, before the people call me, they've already seen my work firsthand, which is even better than any picture.  I have been fortunate.  I get alot where neighbors will try to outdo each other.  I have also been lucky because 99% of these people have been great, and I've even made friends with some of them.  Hey, anything to help my business grow.  Thanks for the input, John.  Man, I've got to start getting to sleep earlier.  I went out to the shop at 4:00 in the morning yesterday.  Couldn't wait to start.  Bipolar, Insomnia will do that to ya.John E. Nanasy

6. 
   DennisS | Nov 01, 2002 04:22am | #16

   John -

   It appears that you've built up a good clientelle, one that should be willing to offer recommendations if asked. From this, I would believe you're no longer in a position to have to "prove" anything to prospective clients beyond the proof of the pudding.

   Take some pictures of completed work; ask some of your more satisfied clients if they would mind giving recommendations or opinions to potential clients. Then when the new customer comes back, you're in a position to ask for a retainer. Which I would do!!

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

7. 
   AlanTurner | Nov 02, 2002 08:20pm | #17

   Boy do you have my encouragement for charging for everything after the initial meeting/consultation.  My bride designs kitchens and baths; works for a company that supplys cabinets, fixtures, etc.  The only charge by the co. is for the hard goods.  She often does a design, and then finds out that the kitchen was supplied by another co., incl. occassionally HD.  I keep telling her to charge for the design, give a credit at the point of the order, but so far without any success.  Seems unfair to me; I would never take a design from one person, then shop it to another co. for pricing advantage, absent something unusual (preceived gouging, lack of trust, inability to deliver, etc). 

   So -- go for it in my view.

8. 
   mrles | Nov 12, 2002 08:07am | #18

   I own a printing company we do rough drawing for free if we feel the customer warrants it. Any finish work is charged 2 different ways. If I print the job it is part of the total cost. If all we are going to get out of the job is the composition and art work it is considerably higher.

   After we make our original roughs we charge for any changes. If you want to go in the design business  that is a different business.

   Good Luck

   les