Hello everyone. I recently recieved my first set of quality chisels and I don’t know if I am expecting too much out of them. As an example I just finished cutting 3 tails on 4 ends and 4 pins on 4 ends of 5/8″ thick clear cherry. I cut out most of the waste with a jewellers saw leaving about 1/16″ to chop out. With my freshly sharpened [8000 grit] chisel, I chop half way in from each side to my scribe line and by the time I am done my chisel is too. Totally dull. By the way the chisel is 3/8 wide and this rate of dulling is typical of all the chisels. The bevels are 30 degrees, and I hone a micro bevel of about 3 degrees. Am I expecting to much that they should last longer?
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Replies
Peter..
By 30* degrees and a 3* degree micro, I assume you mean you ended up with a micro-bevel of 27* degrees. Guessing you are tapping it with a mallet from what you describe to chop that last 16" inch.
If that is the case, what you are essentially doing is a mortice cut with a paring angle. The micro bevel is great as it is easy to re-sharpen. The down-side is it weakens the tip with the lower angle.
Cherry is relatively hard. If I used my bench chisel for chopping as you did I would eliminate the micro and steepen the angle to somewhere between 30* & 33* as I do on my mortice chisels. Leaves the tip with less tendency to roll.
You also mentioned quality chisels. Just a thought, but does quality mean quality or does it mean expensive? What grade is the steel and what is the hardness factor. I bought Sorby's 30 years ago that were quality and I still have them. If I bought a set tomorrow, they would not be quality IMO; just expensive.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"I bought Sorby's 30 years ago that were quality and I still have them. If I bought a set tomorrow, they would not be quality IMO; just expensive."
And that's the truth. Proud owner of new set of Sorbys with edges that roll looking at 'em._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
I also have a set of Marples I bought at Highland Hardware just after they opened way back. Same thing with those.
I have never seen a Barr I wouldn't like to have but they are pretty expensive and I went to Ashley Isles for paring and bench. The A I are great quality and very well priced.
I have a LN dovetail saw and you won't find a complaint from anyone about the planes even though I prefer LV. But every company has hit and misses. I personally think the chisels was a miss at this point and way over-priced. But with the LN name on them they brought in the bucks as everyone naturally assumed if it was LN, it was top-notch. I posted that many, many months ago as they were just being introduced.
Not always best to be the guineau pig. Now, as Paul Harvey says; "You know the rest of the story".
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Quality is often in the hand of the user.
I use the yellow handled Stanley chisels from Lowe's, about $5.
I work 8 hours a day, 4 days a week in my shop.
I sharpen the chisels every few weeks.
Yesterday was typical. I trimmed 16 1/4"x4"x1" mortices and tenons to size and fit 4 1"x1"x3/4" thru mortices to their tenons. All work was in H. Mahogany and all was done with the same chisel.
I don't measure the cutting angles on my tools.
I specifically measured the cutting angles because I am having a problem and would like to know what others think. They will naturally wonder about the bevel angle as you can see by the postings.
Me again. When cutting to the base line would you guys really just use hand pressure? 3/8 inch wide in this example, cross grain in a relatively hard wood, but could be even an inch or more. When I am paring I only use hand pressure but across the grain like this?
Peter36-
The type of furniture I build requires alot of chisel work at my bench. With a cutting bevel of 33 degrees, you should be able to 'chop' with a mallet without denegrating the edge that quickly. Dovetail and mortice chisels are designed for this purpose, thus the hoops at the end of the chisels. Until this year, I was using two cherries chisels, and was very happy with the longevity between sharpenings. For christmas last year, my wife bought me a set of Nishiki twisted neck dovetail chisels from Toolsforworkingwood.com. Wow!!! I can go twice as long without having to sharpen them, and 90 percent of my work is in cherry. If your new chisels were pricey, I'd take them back, and look into a new set, because they are not doing what they were designed to do, as long as they were designed for this type of work. Paring chisels, by design, are too thin, and cannot handle chopping. Any chisel with a hoop on the end, if it's wood handled, should be able to dovetail without quick dulling.
JC
Hello JC. My chisels are Lie-Nielsen bench chisels. They are not hooped. They are naturally supposed to be top quality. The LN distributor taught me how to dovetail, and yes, to use a mallet when cutting to the base line. So if you where making a small box out of cherry, and cutting to the base line only with your chisels, would you need to resharpen?
Is the chisel edge merely dull or does it have little chip outs or does it have folded metal? Try sharpening to about a 35 degree angle. Certainly you should call L-N; you may have a chisel with incorrectly hardened steel.
Peter,
I would call L-N and tell them my problem. I'm sure that they will help you, either by replacing the chisels or helping you with your technique.
These chisels have been getting outstanding reviews for longevity. You shouldn't be having these problems.
You didn't overheat them on the grinder and ruin your temper, did you?
Kyle
Have not seen the grinder yet.
Peter36-
No, I wouldn't need to resharpen. And, you shouldn't, either. Not that quickly!! I've heard several complaints already about the L-N chisels, which is really disappointing. I love their tools. I have almost 20 different tools from them, and the only one I regret buying was the small chisel plane, and only because I hardly ever use the dang thing. You should be able to chop dovetails in cherry for a day or two straight before touching them up. I'd get in contact with them, and explain the problem. I am sure they'd replace them for you, but I'd reconsider the purchase entirely. I think they are having quality control issues with their chisels, and I'd wait until they figure it out. $250 is a great price for what you think would be a 'final set' of chisels. My Nishiki Umeki-Oire-Nomi (japanese for dovetail) chisels were $650, and worth every penny. You can also get a terrific set of Two Cherries chisels for less than you paid for the L-N's. I used them for about 7 years, and thought they were the best, until my recent gift arrived. Given L-N's track record, I'm sure they will work out the problem with their chisels, I'd just hate to be a part of the guinea pig process, and you shouldn't either.
JC
Well I am glad that someone else has heard of these problems too. Yes they are probably going back. Too bad.
Well, I want to like L-N, I really do, since I live about an hour from them in the good ol' State O' Maine. But I have just never trusted "boutique" anything; sooner or later you're paying for the name and not getting the quality.
I have a set of (20-year-old) Marples bevel-edged chisels, and some old inherited ones of various sources, that I hollow-grind to about 23-25 degrees. I hone 'em every once in a while (week or two) when I feel they need it. I chop with them, pare with them. Any chisel I had that was dull in a half-hour or hour's worth of work would be relegated to the back of my tool cabinet for opening cans of stain. Endlessly frigging around with sharpening, etc., brings me no joy; making nice things out of wood does. If you can't put an edge on the sons-a-bucks and forget about it for a while, send 'em back for a refund.
20548.29 in reply to 20548.17 "Well, I want to like L-N, I really do, since I live about an hour from them in the good ol' State O' Maine. But I have just never trusted "boutique" anything; sooner or later you're paying for the name and not getting the quality."Just curious whether you've ever visited L-N, since you live so close by. What exactly is a "boutique" toolmaker, for instance?
What you'd discover visiting, is a dedicated group of workers in
a thrifty unadorned facility; hardly "boutique" if I take your meaning. Nobody is perfect, but it's how you square the deal afterwards that counts. I've never heard anything less about their customer service than "dedicated," & that is from personal experience as well.
"Just curious whether you've ever visited L-N, since you live so close by. What exactly is a "boutique" toolmaker, for instance?What you'd discover visiting, is a dedicated group of workers in a thrifty unadorned facility; hardly "boutique" if I take your meaning. Nobody is perfect, but it's how you square the deal afterwards that counts. I've never heard anything less about their customer service than "dedicated," & that is from personal experience as well."
Been by, never been in. I'm sure everything you say about them is true. By "boutique" I mean (I'm trying to avoid pejoratives and failing) fancy-schmancy; looks play a big part, as does price.
It's a chisel, fer cryin' out loud, it's not "rocket surgery". Do the QC before it goes out the door, especially at those prices.
Whatever would our predecessors have done if they'd had to wait to build until they could afford to buy (the equivalent of) a $200-$400 plane? Nothing, that's what. All my tools are older Stanley (except my Marples chisels) and do the job for me just fine. I have an ancient Craftsman 14" jack plane that you'll only pry from my dead stiff fingers.
After a certain point there's a diminishing return on the money you lay out for any hand tool.
Edited 12/14/2004 3:44 pm ET by Chad
"I have an ancient Craftsman 14" jack plane that you'll only pry from my dead stiff fingers."
Hey I've got one of those too, and my sentiments are the same as yours.
Chad, Not to jump into the 'form versus function' argument but, I bet if you went back and looked historically at what craftsmen from past days paid for their bench planes versus buying a LN today, I think you'd find that, on a relative scale, they were paying more proportionally than we do today (I read a comparison somewhere, but can't remember where, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the LN website).
From my perspective, your buying different degrees of three things: 1) perfect function when perfectly tuned; 2) a reduced amount of fettling, flattening, etc. to achieve 'perfectly tuned'and a minimal effort to keep it that way; and 3) an attractive appearance (non-functional fit and finish). Arguably with some tools, there is a fourth factor, how easy is it in use to achieve 'perfect function'.
Now, many would argue that factor three, non-functional fit and finish are useless and they would never pay extra for an ounce of enhancement in this area. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tool that is great in the other areas where the maker doesn't take a little extra effort to make it look nice also.
The reverse is not necessarily true. Some makers appear to concentrate on the appearance of the tool, hoping the buyer will assume based on its shiney good looks that it is a quality functional tool. Sorry for the off-topic ramblings.Matt
20548.41 in reply to 20548.37 "Been by, never been in. I'm sure everything you say about them is true. By "boutique" I mean (I'm trying to avoid pejoratives and failing) fancy-schmancy; looks play a big part, as does price."Well, I had wondered if maybe you had a bevel to grind with L-N over some direct experience with them. Its a neat place to visit as you can see all aspects of the operation & use the tools in their showroom. I'm intrigued by folks who run down a small tool company trying to make the best tools possible, especially one in the state of Maine. Can't fathom it? I took a visiting friend who is a skilled woodworker to Liberty Tools 20 years ago. He was depressed afterwards, "Old tools can tell a story: which ones were cared for & which ones had been abused." Getting your hands on a cherished old tool (or even an abused one) & rejuvenating it is entirely different from making a new one whole-cloth, especially if your vision in making it, is to leave a cherished tool behind for the next generation. As you said, a tool that doesn't function properly, often ends up discarded.
Ditto on the Lie-Nielsson service. I had their large scraper plane which I was never able to get to work properly. Called to ask about it, and a vice president told me to bring it in and they'd exchange it for anything else. I did that last summer and used the credit to help buy their jointer plane. very satisfied.
That's uncalled for, they make the very best planes for the price in the world, period. I have not used the chisels yet and really like the old Stanleys, Bucks, Greenlees etc. that I have rescued. But for planes, no amount of tuning will bring an old Stanley #4 to equal my L-N.
"That's uncalled for, they make the very best planes for the price in the world, period."
What's uncalled for, my opinion? I merely expressed my view that beyond a certain point there's a diminishing return on the money one spends for a hand tool. Then I declared my undying allegiance to my old Craftsman jack plane.
You will let us know if your chisels crap out like Peter56's did, won't you?
napie ---You write "they make the very best planes for the price in the world, period."They use A-2 tool steel blades, hardness perhaps 60-62. Planes I buy for $40 planes use HSS blades, RC 61-63. The steel being used by L-N is inferior in toughness.While their workmanship is good, (looks like any high end tool work), I suspect that is all they have going for them. The fit and finish of the planes I buy is on par with the L-N planes.I find this on their website "A-2 was rarely used in plane blades until recently, but we know of no other examples of commercially available A-2 chisels, partly because A-2 is hard, and difficult to forge."A-2 and HSS have been used in planes for many years. I had a HSS bladed plane in 1975.A-2 has been forged for a good long time. (Forging directions have been on the internet for 10 years at least.) HSS chisels have been available for several years.I understand puffing and advertizing. Don't believe all a manufacturer writes.
George, What planes are you buying for $40 a pop that have the 'fit-n-finish' of a LN?
If I could buy a $40 plane, pull it out the box, touch up the blade on a leather strop and get to planing, I'd be a happy man.Matt
I did not have to touch the blades. They were sharp enough to take .001" cuts in the scrap I had on my bench.I don't give business names.
Why no names? I'd be proud of that discovery.
George, You've given whatever manufacturer this is such high marks, I'm sure that they would love their name associated with your posts. Unless your afraid we're all going to go and snatch up all their planes.Matt
<<I don't give business names.>>Whether you realize it or not, that kind of attitude reduces everything else you you say to BS.This morning I spent nearly four hours lapping off the grind marks, flattening the backs and putting 25-degree bevels of that set of Two cherries chisels I mentioned above. I don't think it should have been necessary, especially since so may positive reviews have been posted about them. (Could it be that every company has an uneven QC event from time to time?) Now that they're sharp, I'll see how long they stay that way.
Not to offend but ...Most businesses (including mine) do not want or need to have the people on this site as customers. Many are not worth the effort.You will note that wood lathe tools have been forged HSS for years. Even low end ones. Before that they made them from A2. Manufacturers have little or no problem in making cutting tools at low prices.
George, So, your saying you've decided that whoever makes your planes might be offended to hear from someone who posts here (of whom, of course, you are one) and they wouldn't want our business?????
With the skyrocketing market for hand tools, I'm not suprised. In fact, just the other day I swear I saw someone dust off a Buck Brothers plane box at the local big box and carry it off to the register. They're probably thinking about expanding their line of planes from just a jack to a jack and a block plane.
If we're too high-falootin' here to buy these great planes and selling them to us would just be too big a pain in the $#@#$ for the maker, and the most of the rest of the world thinks about horsepower numbers as the first sign of tool quality, whose snatching up all these hand planes???
It's hard to understand your reluctence to ID a product that works so well for you. It also makes it impossible to evaluate your opinion (pardon my paraphrase) that anyone who spends $300 on a plane is nuts because its easy to get the same quality and performance for $40. Apparently, it's not easy, it's a secret.Matt
George,I make my own wooden-body planes for my own use and as gifts to friends. I use Hock irons which cost me just under $40 each. They come ground to 30 degrees and of course need lapping and honing, as well as regrinding for the various other angles I need. That's a lot of work (but worth it).I would very much appreciate the name of the planes you use that are available for $40. That's an unbelieveably good price even if grinding, lapping and honing must be done, to say nothing if they come ready to produce a .001" shaving. I'm pleased if I can get consistent .002" shavings from my smoothing planes after very careful preparation of the soles and irons.At that price, the only planes I have seen in the last 5 years or so are the pieces of unmitigated junk that get stocked at Home Depot, Ace or Lowes.The purpose of this place is to share information. Come on, name those babies!Rich
Rich14
Your attempt was probably the most decent of all here, but the reason why he won't post the name of the plane is because it only exists in his mind. He's comparing HSS to A2 steel. Come on!!!! I'll take the advice of the other poster, and remove the possibility of reading his ignorant statements here again. It could be that some folks are just looking for an argument!!
JC
JC,There you go, ruining my fantasy. A $40 complete plane, honed and ready to go for the price I pay just for the raw iron.The next thing you'll tell me is there's no Santa Claus!Rich
George is very annoying. You can just go to options and click on ignore this author. That is what I have done so I don't have to see his name.
ROTFLMHO, if only dealing with the rest of the world were so simple...
Kinda like the Zen of jerks?
Sounds like unsubstantiated BS to me.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I own five of their tools because they work, not the ad copy. All I can say is that piece of crotch cherry I planed down last night without ANY tearout is proof enough for me. I spent years tuning, replacing blades (including using Hock), and none of them came even close to my L-N York pitch 4 1/2. Given the fact that price wise it comes in at less than a days wage, well, that's a real bargin in my book. Also, it's more than the steel in the blade, it's the whole tool design, the weight, the fit and finish. Hence the reason I do not buy their chisels, the old ones I rescue are quite OK for the task they are asked to do.
Yes exactly as you say. A2 is rare in plane blades until recently, and they don't know of anyone making A2 chisels. In 1975 you had a hss plane and you own hss chisels, so what about the A2??????????????????????????
Two Cherries Chisels -- there were the first chisels I bought and I have liked them a lot. However, I simply cannot get the backs thoroughly flattened despite hours of trying to do so using sandpaper method, using DMT diamond stones, using Norton waterstones. I also bought four blue-handled Marples for a lot less money and the backs flattened promptly and they keep an edge nicely.What experience have you had with flattening the backs of thge Two Cherries?
Ditto Larry....researched the heck out of my first chisel purchase, looked all over for the best price on Two Cherries....and have spent 15+ hours trying to get the backs flat!! Still no dice. I find it pretty disappointing - figured I could save a little money by being willing to put some sweat equity into it, but I'm about to chalk it up as a lesson in "spend the money and buy the tool once". Are the Barr's really worth it? Have a few Christmas presents to put requests in for still....Ethan
Larry-
Two cherries chisels are made from a very hard steel. I'm not a metallurgist, so I won't go into it, at the risk of being inaccurate. You can check an FWW article on chisels several years back. I flattened the backs of mine on my tormek, after I used the trueing jig to make sure the side of the grinding wheel was flat. Now, when I need to repolish the back, I do it on a 8000 grit japanese water stone. You can get a diamond embedded lapping plate and flatten them that way, which is not too rediculously expensive. It shouldn't take anywhere near more than an hour to get the job done. Sand paper, or a 200 - 800 grit waterstone are not the methods of choice for steel this tough, IMHO. But, I can tell you this. Once you get them flat and sharp, they hold an edge very well, better than all the other brands available at 2 or 3 times the cost. I'm a tool junky. I have 7 different sets of chisels, accumulated over time. Next to my Nishiki's, the 2 Cherry's are the best.
JC
Well, I'll try again using a diamond plate to try to flatten only the last inch of the back. Thanks for the info --
Larry
Just this morning I dropped my 3/4 inch two cherry's chisel on the concrete floor, and put one heck of a nick in it. I decided to try what you stated you were having trouble doing. I started with 220 grit, dry, on the granite. I had the bevel reground in about 15 minutes, as I had to take off about a 1/16th, maybe a little more, to get it square. I then switched to 600, and also flattened the back. I then pulled out my scary sharp paper from toolsforworkingwood.com. It's all made by 3m. 15mic., 40mic., the grey sheet, and then the green sheet. (I don't know what mic. they are, and I couldn't find my invoice quickly to let you know. They don't say on the paper like the other two do.) All told, about an hour and a half, and it was polished, and I have no hair left on my left wrist. That's the 2nd time in 25 years I've dropped a chisel. My fingers are sore as hell right now, but I wanted to see if I gave you the wrong info. Try the diamond plate, or even my method with some granite or 1/4 inch plate glass. The back was tough, but you should be able to get it way before 15 hours.
JC
I'mgoing to give it another try -- but this time limiting myself to trying to flatten just the last inch instead of the whole back.
Peter -
I suspect you know more about hand cutting joints than I probably ever will, but using the word "chop" to describe how you're removing the last bit of waste leaves me with the impression you're using a mallet to do so. I don't pound on my "good" chisels. I keep them for paring using only hand pressure. I use a very soft piece of pine as a landing pad for the chisel edge if I'm working through something against the bench. For "chopping" I have a very limited stable of mortise chisels (make that one). It happens to be a Sorby (sorry, Sarge) and I've chopped a few holes in some pretty hard chechen without losing the edge all that quickly. I'd side with the comment that the bevel is too steep for the way you're using them.
Care to share the brand name?
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Peter
Let me correct myself on your angle of bevel. I don't spend a lot of time with math. he....
You had a secondary bevel of 30*. You add a 3* micro and your primary is 33* (sometimes I think backwards when tired) which is OK for morticing if..... the grade of your steel allows. If it is brittle you may even need a higher angle if you are going to chop. If you intend to use a bench chisel that way I would try a 34* (you're already at 33* and no dice) , then 35*, 36* till you find a point that the tip doesn't desenagrate so quickly.
Paring usually is from 22* to 25*, general bench 25* to 30* and mortice from 30* to 36*. But the paring and most general work is done with hand pressure as Dennis mentioned. A bench chisel will work for chopping, but you're gonna sharpen more often; especially if the grade of steel is low.
Good luck...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I don't know if there is any confusing with the word chopping but just to be sure, I leave about 1/16" to be removed with a chisel. This is done in 2 passes using a mallet, cutting half way through from each side on top of a pine backer board. I am cutting the base line at this time and not paring the sides of the pins or tails, just 'chopping' to the base line. The actual angle of the tip would be something like 33*. One small jewelery box and they are dull. I do not believe that it is a sharpening skill issue, as it happens if I hone by hand or on a roller guide. Sarge, thanks for your reply and I had a brain fart too the other day when I was thinking that bench planes had the bevel up. Tired thing must be catchy.
Peter36,
I've been at this chisel thing for about 3 years now and have accumulated a variety...some new, most used. That is not a lot of experience but it has me thinking there really is no perfect chisel, but rather chisels you like best, suited to the purpose you intend to put them too.
As Sarge pointed out, paring, morticing and chopping really require different bevels (slopes) for a effective performance. That is, the wrong slope will have you either working too hard ( and lessoning your control)or sharpening too frequently. Working in the field a carpenter needs a tool that suits several needs...and therefore, sharpens easily and fits many tasks....a 25 degree slope fits the variety of needs. I would assume, for instance, that a carpenter in the field would find a japanese chisel just a big pain...way to hard.
In our shops however, we have the luxury of tailoring our hand tools to our specific needs and likes. The situation you describe (dovetails, waste sawed out to within 1/16"..ie. Ian Kirby style) says you should have pared to the line. Paring to the line produces a beautiful dovetail...chopping often causes tearout at the base...but it's hidden and we don't talk about it...lol.
I spent a few hours this weekend changing the bevel on my paring chisels to about 20 degrees..razor sharp. When I finished, I could pare a 1/32" slice off of endgrain poplar all day long very quickly and very smoothly ( I even let my wife try). I will strop these chisels frequently to keep them that way...should not need to re-sharpen for several months. Likewise, my firmer chisels I use for morticing and keeping them razor sharp would be a waste of time...I chop close to the shoulder line and pare the last skinch..the thickness of the firmer takes care of the mortice sides. The Japanese and Stanley(cheapies, #750, Everlast) I keep very sharp but only tap with a mallet...so they require little maintenance too.
My point is don't expect one chisel or chisel style to do it all....tailor to your specific needs and comfort level with a variety over time. Most of mine were bought used for under $8...many were for free too( my father). I don't not put a secondary bevel on my chisels...too much work when you need to re-sharpen...and it kinda defeats the whole concept of a tailored tool to a specific purpose...anyhow, my $.02
Edited 12/13/2004 8:02 am ET by BG
This is actually my second set of chisels. The first set would fold the edge even when paring by hand. I told LN about this and they immediately sent me a new set and mentioned that the initial production chisels had the bevels factory ground at 25* but they had now switched to 30*, they did not mention why but I have my theories. I only use light taps with my mallet, and since 6 oclock this morning I have sharpened and tried only using hand pressure to pare to the base line, removing about 1/16" in 3 passes. The edge still failed [ rolled over onto the flat side.] I do not own any other good chisels and as I said this is my second set so I wanted to find out what others had to say before I contacted LN again.
Peter36,
That is a shame..it appears your LN's need to be sent back...and I would not accept a bench chisel that needed to be 30 degrees either.
I just ran down stairs to test my 1" Sorby and 5/8" Witherby on some endgrain cherry..I use them both as paring chisels with a 20 degree bevel....no problem. I think it's more difficult to pare with a 25 degree bevel...and a 30 degree bevel would pose problems with the corners of a dovetail..pushing the edges back and making the dovetails look sloppy.
I talked with a professional craftsman about his trial set of LN's last year...he loved them...but since then a coupleof people on here have had problems with them...sounds like your the third person....it's a shame
I use Two Cherry chisels and use them pretty hard. I clean up mortises, pare tenons (cheeks and shoulders), fit dovetails, etc. I don't even use a softwood backer. The center of my bench is a MDF insert and I do my hammer-type work on it. I sharpen 3-4 times a year, max, and usually produce 3-4 larger type pieces per month and some smaller ones.Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Please take a look at my note to JC about my problem with flattening the backs of Two Cherries. Have you had any problem flatttening backs? Any advice?
I was able to flatten the backs in fairly good order, on a diamond stone, but I only did the bottom inch. Edit: well maybe two inches.
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Edited 12/15/2004 2:17 pm ET by AlanMikkelsen
Two words. Barr Quarton.
Like a Timex, they takes a likin and keeps on tickin.
http://www.barrtools.com/
Ed
Have to agree on the Barr's. I do some timber framing and the 1", 1 1/2", etc. can't be beat. The drawback is the price with their mortice chisels if you don't use them that much.
I have a set of Ashley Isle's American Cabinet-makers and they are a piece of art for the moderate price. Superb.. I have not used the Two-Cherries so I won't comment.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I went to the Barr Quarton website and read a testimonial by Chris Becksvort. He said that they are the best chisels he has and he can go through dovetailing 5 or 6 large case pieces before they need to be sharpened. That's what I want. Is my wife reading this?
Peter36, I have the Barr cabinetmakers chisels, the long ones. I have been using them now for about 2 1/2 years and have to say that they are possibly some of the finest tools I have had the pleasure of using. I am a full time furnituremaker and use these chisels almost exclusively. I also have a set of the blue Marples that I take on to jobsites that I have had for about 10 years and they are still going strong. When I firt got my Barr chisels I had to play with the bevel angle in order to find a happy medium for chopping and paring. I don't measure the bevel I just know by looking at the angle if it is good enough. Sometimes it is important to test the steel and see how it performs rather than get hung up on a certain number for a bevel. Once you get a feel for the steel it is easier to know how steep you need to grind. As with all woodworking practice makes perfect.J.P.
If you went to buy them again would you still get the long ones and if so why? Also what do you use for sharpening and what grits?
Please,anybody knows if Greaves and Sons ,England chisels, are still being made?Italy makes fine chisels,Stella Bianca.
I like the long ones for paring and cleaning out mortices. Since I use these chisels for many different operations I find the longer length more useful. I originally purchased the shorter ones but returned yhem because they were limited in their use. I would certainly buy another set. The only thing I don't like about these chisels is the little nub at the top of the handle. I cut all of them off since they mage paring uncomfortable. I have a Baldor grinder that I use to put a hollow in the blade, then I use 1200 and 4000 grit waterstones to hone. I have 200 and 800 grit stones as well to get out small nicks. I only use a grinder for serious nicks aor to readjust a bevel. The majority of my sharpening is done on the waterstones.These chisels are shipped razor sharp and ready to go. The backs are flat and it takes no time at all to hone an edge. I have found them to have a good balance between the hardness of the steel and ease of sharpening and overall toughness.EDIT: If you are unhappy with the chisels there is a 1 year guarantee. You may return them for a full refund or exchange. Barr has excellent customer service as well as a great product.J.P.
Edited 12/14/2004 7:44 am ET by j.p.
4000 grit gives a sharp enough edge? I tend to go to 8000, on my LN and my cheapies.
I think that 4000 is sometimes a little excessive. I can get a razor sharp edge after 1200 if I strop on a coarse piece of leather. I use the 4000 because I slightly dome the edge to make it last longer and I already spent the money so I might as well use it. 8000 stones just seem ridiculously fine, and for me a waste of time to use. As I said, I use my tools all day long and I don't fret over bevel angles or having to use half a dozen different grit stones to get a perfectly sharp tool. I just want a serviceable edge that cuts effortlessly and that usually takes a couple of minutes, if that.J.P.
. If 8000 grit seems ridiculously fine, and a waste of time then are you saying that a chisel can be too sharp? And if you can get it as sharp as with an 8000 stone using your strop, then those of us that don't use a strop should use the 8000 to get our chisels as sharp as yours. Sounds logical enough.
Edited 12/15/2004 4:44 am ET by Peter36
Peter36,
Absolutely, they can be too sharp IMO...relative too the effort and expense to get the chisels that sharp and the durability of the sharpness. Remember, they dull by having the edge roll while being used. The harder the steel the sharper they can get and the longer the sharpness lasts...the converse is true with softer steel. But that sharpness can be lost after one or two pushes of the chisel...the roll can be removed with the #8000 grit, stroping, and even the plam of your hand. So the first question is how much effort to sharpen given the hardness of the steel...and how far to go with sharpening. The second question becomes how much is the physical effort of using the chisel reduced by frequent stropping verses the effort to rehone with a #8000 or stropping....stropping is faster. As you can see all of this is relative...
For my purposes I can get a satisfactory edge with a strop or the 4000 grit stone. I don't see any reason to take the process beyond that since the additional time and energy on a higher grit stone produces marginal results for what I need to do my work.If an 8000 grit stone works for you, good. I have found that one should develop a process and stick with it. Over time and with experience you will discover what works best for you and the type of work you are doing.I like to work wood, so I have developed a sharpening technique that allows me to do that with minimal time and effort.I don't think that any edge tool can be too sharp. I make mine sharp enough to work for me. J.P.
I looked at the Barr chisels and other high end chisels and made an observation ...Hand tool costs should be a small fraction of my expenses. $1000 for filling up my chisel box is too much. Even $500 is too much.I have learned to saw close to my lines and to use Chisels that cost under $10 each. The cost includes my labor to regrind bench chisels into dovetail and paring chisels.I expect that by this summer I will have $100 in 16 chisels and perhaps $400 in 10 hand planes in my hand tool box. That seems about right.I have to go finish up some tables and chairs today and sharpen my handsaws.
That's great. If it works for you, then it works. That is my point. Find what works for you and practice. Yes, there are much less expensive tools that can do very well. And sometimes you pay more but don't get more.I wouldn't trade my Barr chisels for any other. The steel is excellent and they hold an edge for a long time. They also are relatively easy to sharpen.When I purchased those chisels I thought at the time that I may have paid too much. However, I couldn't be happier. They are a joy to work with and I consider them an investment that has already paid off.J.P.
I primarily use Hirsch and Jacob Busch chisels. They are German brands with hard steel. If you are only cutting cherry that should not dull them much if any. I bevel the top of my chisels way back about.75" to 1" in length. Then sharpen the every end at about 20 to 25 degrees. If you wiggle the chisels I have, the steel will break. I have cut dovetails as thick as 2.5" down to quite thin stock using the same chisels. I have at least two sets of the smaller chisels. One is for paring and the other for rough cuts.
Just a note. I went to a local metalurgist this morning and had my chisels tested for there rockwell C hardness measurement. They came up at RC57-58, the LN website advertises them at RC 60-62. The testing will create a small round dent in the metal if anyone is thinking of doing this. And lastly the LN website states that the chisels come with a 30* bevel but you may need to change it to 35* depending on the type of work being done.
Then it appears that the tools are too soft.
After detailed reaserch:29 deg,17 min and 03 sec is the rigth angle bevel!(LN advertise lies?)
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