hello all,
I am currently using a set of Record Blue Chip chisels. Rhey seem to loose an edge quick and the edge usually ends up getting quite damaged in between each sharpening session. Is it the way I sharpen them or are they just garbage chisels? Let me know? Also is a Delta Midi Lathe a good buy for an average Joe who just wants to try turning for the first time?
God Bless
Derek
Replies
Derek,
It seems that alot of woodworkers buy Blue Chips for a first set of chisels. They are not horrible chisels. FWW often has pictures of Mike Dunbar using them. So, one could argue that if they are good enough for him, they are could enough for me.
However, much of the anecdotal evidence that you will come across here (and other woodworking message boards) suggest that there are much better chisels available. An article a couple of years ago in FWW had a somewhat scientific test that showed Marples Blue Chips to have relatively poor edge retention.
Like alot of other woodworkers, I replaced a set of Blue Chips with a set of Two Cherries, which I much prefer. Hirsch is another fine make as are some of the Japanese chisels. If you are patient, Lie Nielsen is supposed to be offering chisels to their product line very soon.
Good Luck
Edited 5/7/2003 2:11:14 PM ET by Kyle
Fine Woodworking's March 1985 test of chisels has been reprinted in Tauton's Fine Woodworking on Hand Tools (pp 12-16). Interestingly, as Paul Horgan notes in the follow-up article, only very slight differences in hardness, edge retention, etc. exist between the various models they tested, and certainly not enough difference to justify the prices asked for the "premium" chisels.
Also noteworthy was their finding that even among chisels which exhibited "edge breakdown", this breakdown only occurred when the chisel was dull. (Don't know about you, but I was taught that a dull tool is a dangerous tool.)
Jeff
BTW, American made Stanley's scored just as well as Hirsch, Sorby, et al.
Jeff,
I was referring to the FWW issue #139 December 1999. (When I first posted, I was too lazy to look up the issue.) Blue Chips finished 16 out of 17 in the "Toughness Ranking." When I first read the article I was surprised that the Blue Chips finished that poorly relative to the other chisels. I was also surprised at how poorly some of the more expensive English chisels (i.e. Sorby) did in the tests. However, I have since noticed on some woodworking message boards that Sorby owners are often disappointed with their edge retention.
I have briefly perused the article that you mentioned. As I recall, the author of the 1985 article reached some different conclusions than did the author of the 1999 article. I suppose that the metallurgy in some of the chisels could have changed over 14 years. Plus, I am sure that preconceived notions of the authors play a part in the conclusions.
Either way, I liked the Blue Chips when I first got them. But I am very happy to have upgraded to the Two Cherries. The steel is probably better, plus I much prefer the feel of them.
Cheers
Tell us about "the way you sharpen them."
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I sharpen them using an 800 grit and 4000 grit water stone respectivly.
Derek,
I think what ForestGirl was asking--and what I would like to know--is the angle of the primary bevel; and when that edge dulls, whether or not you put on a micro-bevel; if so, how much of a micro-bevel.
(In what follows, please pardon me for pointing out what you probably already know.) A more acute (smaller) angle makes a very keen cutting edge, but the edge dulls quickly; a more obtuse (larger) angle means more effort is required in use, but the edge lasts longer. As with most things, it's a trade-off: a compromise between a keener edge versus a long lasting edge. The "best" bevel angle depends on the quality of the steel, the way you use them, the wood you work with, and so on. Generally (and all general rules are false!) a "better" quality chisel can be honed with a more acute bevel angle which will last as long or longer than a more obtuse angled bevel on a lesser quality chisel.
I have a set of Marples chisels (not the Blue Chips; mine are the ones with the transparent yellow and red plastic handles). I hone a primary bevel of twenty-five degrees. That works for a time, but the edge dulls rather quickly. When the tool gets too dull I put on a five degree micro-bevel. The effective thirty degree bevel seems to work best for these chisels. You might try something similar (if you haven't already) to see if a micro-bevel will give you a longer lasting edge. If this is no help, perhaps with a bit more information the experts can give you sounder advice.
Alan
Yes, thank you! I've been out clothes shopping for a wedding. Yuck! Rather be in the shop!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have a set of the blue Marples also, which I sharpen to about 25 degrees. I find they dull quickly. Based on your experience I'm going to try 30 degrees next time I sharpen them.
They work pretty well for me. However, that matters not one bit in relation to your problem. The backs are flat and the bevels are honed at 30 degrees. The edges don't last as long when powered with a chisel. They last longer when doing simple paring operations. I don't use them as a proxy for mortise chisels. Well, actually I do on occasion but not that often. Sometimes I drill out mortises with a brace and I'll go straight to firmer chisels for clean up.
There are more expensive chisels available with higher quality/harder steel. Those probably suit your methodology better than Marples, whose price averages around $6 a unit. A $30 chisel bloody well ought to offer 'more' than one costing five times less.
I think you've got some shopping to do.
I bought a 3 pack of chisels from Sears, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, that have been pretty good as an everyday chisel. They hold an edge pretty good til my brother-in-law gets ahold of them. Someday I am going to teach him how to sharpen them. LOL
My wife bought me a set of "Footprint" chisels a few years back but I have never used them. I love an oilstone to sharpen everything. A little bit of 3-in-one oil and they are as good as new.
Dave in Pa.
God Bless your uncomplicated heart.
God Bless your uncomplicated heart
Why, thank you.
My theory is KISS ("Keep it simple. stupid"). It seems to have worked over the years and I follow Mike Dunbars advice in a recent article. I have made a copy of it and posted it in the shop.
Dave in Pa.
You're welcome. With an oilstone lying on the bench ready for a quick touch-up, edge retention becomes much less of an issue doesn't it? If I'm taking a few swipes on the hard stone I sometimes don't even bother to squirt the stone with oil. At any rate, oil and steel are a better mix than water and steel.
Now, if you have to fish a waterstone out of a five gallon bucket (all the while slinging water all over the place) and flatten it on a diamond stone before you use it, then clean up all the water afterwards, then I can understand the issue.
It doesn't have to be quite that messy. Lee Valley sells a plastic container (they call it a "pond") with metal cross bars and a cheap plastic lid to slow down evaporation. You keep about two inches of water in the bottom of the container, and keep a couple of waterstones submerged. Like all Lee Valley tools it's pretty cheap in the negative sense of that word, and it doesn't really work the way it's supposed to, but it works.
I keep mine on a table next to my bench. When you want to sharpen something, I just remove the plastic lid, set the stone up on the metal cross bars, and have at it. Any water dripping from the stone drips right back into the container. That's it. Every now and I again I flatten the stones, but this doesn't need to be done every time you touch them.
You're supposed to be able to put one stone on each cross bar, so you can have two stones on top at a time. But the cross bars are too flimsy for that, so I put both of them together and place a single stone on the two of them. It works fine - in fact, you don't even have to secure the stone with the little thingies they give you.
Wow Mark! I realize Lee Valley sells some things that aren't great, but to say, "Like all Lee Valley tools it's pretty cheap in the negative sense of that word," is going a bit far.
Don't have any of their planes, but from what I've read I'd be happy to own one or two. All the reviews I've seen rate them among the best.
Jeff
You're right. It probably was a bit overstated.
Darn, I thought you'd tell me I could have your collection of Veritas planes!
Curious if anyone has played around with heat and tried to temper or case harden chisels. Years ago I experimented with some cheap screwdrivers- heated them up and quenched them in oil.
The cryogenic treatment (freezing) is supposed to be helpful in improving lower-quality blades by correcting some heat-treating problems. I don't know when the most recent article was written on this process. Maybe someone out there does.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi f_g,
There's a good article here on how cryogenic treatment works - note that (not stated in this article), cryogenic heat treatment only is effective if the initial heat treatment has been poorly done or performed too slowly.
As well, this site has a link to 'metallurgy made simpler' that explains things pretty well. Look under the 'tool design and development' sub heading. As well, there's a lot of other good stuff in here in the other headings. Worth a look.
Cheers,
eddie
(a metallurgist/materials engineer and a cabinetmaker - does this mean a foot in both camps?)
Thanks Eddie, I'll take a look. There was a pretty good artcle not too long ago, I think in FWW, but I'm short on memory for that one.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the links. I can vouch for the results. The A-2 blade in my LN block plane holds an edge far better than my old Stanley.
Hi jc,
This topic generates fervent discussion usually. Stanley irons are an O1 steel, basic carbon steel, Record Irons are more durable, probably O2 (these are basic hardenable steels).
The A2 raw product (before the blade is made) is a lot more expensive to buy and makes a far superior blade to the other two in my opinion. In other's opinion, O1 gets the sharpest edge, even if it doesn't last as long.
I personally use M2 blades (cryo-treated High Speed Steel) as I tend to work an awful lot of our hardwoods, and the Stanley blades last 15-20 strokes between sharpenings. I can do a tabletop with an M2 blade before the edge needs retouching. Somewhere about this level is the japanese laminated blades, But I couldn't even guess whether they're superior to A2 or M2 or whatever.
M2 is harder to sharpen than A2, and doesn't grind easily on a bench grinder, but hones OK.
There you are, my summary in a nutshell from about one to two hundred posts on the subject that I've read/joined in.
Cheers,
eddie
For the relatively brief moment that I tried waterstones I had the very pond that you mentioned. It's not bad. If you bump it you can slosh the water out of it (I think I kept too much water in mine). In warm weather I found it necessary to chlorinate the water a bit. It's a bit heavy and has a relatively large footprint compared to a couple of stones stacked on each other. I never could get the "thingies" you mentioned to work, either.
I never knew when the stones were flat, so I flattened them a lot. How do you know?
And you still have to flatten those damned stones too often. They're dicey on narrow chisels because of gouging. I added up the negatives one day and made a change. I probably would have liked waterstones okay if I'd never tried the Veritas rig.
Edited 5/8/2003 4:59:41 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
I don't keep much water in the pond, so it doesn't slosh out, and I leave it in one place anyway. And since I don't have to use the thingies, it's quite convenient. I don't worry about the flatness of the stones too much (forgive me!!), figuring that the worst that's going to happen is that the plane iron or chisel won't be of perfectly the same sharpness all the way across its width, and by moving it around the stone while I sharpen even this risk is minimized. Actually, I make an effort to use all parts of the stone about equally, which probably does no good at all except for my brain, and in sharpening sometimes that's all that matters.
I like the feel of the metal "floating" on the wet stone, especially the fine stones. Maybe I'd like an oil stone even more. I was pretty happy with sandpaper, but didn't like the idea that after the first blade went across the paper it was gradually becoming less and less effective. Again, probably more mental than real.
I still can't decide whether to use a honing jig all the time or throw it out. I think if I ground everything with a hollow bevel I could do it by hand pretty well because you can feel the bevel. But then I ask myself why I would want to be sharpening the whole bevel rather than just a small micro-bevel. Can people put on a consistent micro-bevel by hand? That's beyond my skill level, for sure. With a honing jig, I just put the tool in the jig, get exactly the right angle every time using a simple little fixture - this takes about five seconds - and there I go.
I've been thinking about this since my last post. And in the meantime, I put the nut on backwards on my Starrett combination square and can't get the bastard off.
I guess it's the whole concept of needing a 'pond' in the first place that was a turn off to me. And I think you do need something beyond the typical small box used to hold oilstones (all mine lie around naked, unboxed).
I now use the honing jig only after I've done a fresh re-grind (which I accomplish on a cheap coarse diamond stone from Lowe's). I like to establish a nice, straight honing bevel. Touch ups after that are a free handed affair, but this was not always the case. Maybe I've gotten lazy.
You're welcome. With an oilstone lying on the bench ready for a quick touch-up, edge retention becomes much less of an issue doesn't it?
Absolutely. I keep it in the top tray of my mobile tool chestso its there ready to go.
Now, if you have to fish a waterstone out of a five gallon bucket (all the while slinging water all over the place) and flatten it on a diamond stone before you use it, then clean up all the water afterwards, then I can understand the issue.
My dad was a Master Tool and Die Maker and brought me up using an oil stone whenever I had to sharpen anything. My mother had the sharpest knives in the neigborhood. Back in the late 60's he had me hand scrap the ways of some pretty big lathes. What a great learning experince.
Dave in Pa.
With all the great woodworking that was accomplished with edges honed on oilstones - from the great furniture masterpieces to tool and die patterns, I see no reason to buck history.
I'll leave the eastern tradition to Asian woodworkers.
"At any rate, oil and steel are a better mix than water and steel."
Chasstanford,
I agree that steel is more compatible with oil than water (assuming prolonged contact is likely). However, in my experience, oil is far more liklely to contaminate a wood surface, making finishing problematic, than water.
The finishing/contamination problems with oil, and the fact water stones cut far more quickly, and are easier to true, has led me to select water, diamond, and ceramic as the sharpening surfaces of choice.
As to the exposure of steel to water, I remedy this situation by wiping my tools dry and applying a little camelia oil after sharpening; unlike petrolium-based oils, camelia oil is non-toxic and won't mess up my finish.
This whole subject probably has as much to do with people getting used to doing things a certain way, the way they were taught, or the way their fathers or grandfathers did it, as it has to do with the virtues of a particular sharpening "system." Maybe that's why so many people, with such varied backgrounds, find this forum so enjoyable.
Nice talking to you,Paul
Sounds good... if it works and you're happy that's all that matters.
I have an old wool sock that I use to wipe the honing oil off of whatever I've sharpened. Just a quick wipe and I've not had any finishing problems to date (knock on wood).
I have a small ceramic stone that came with a chip-carving set my wife bought me and I have used it on a chisel or two with good results. Does anybody make them in a 2.5" width that you know of?
"I have a small ceramic stone that came with a chip-carving set my wife bought me and I have used it on a chisel or two with good results. Does anybody make them in a 2.5" width that you know of?"
http://www.Japanwoodworker.com has a large selection, many 2.5" wide.
FWIW, I, too, was "lukewarm" on the subject of water stones until I took a class from a master sharpener. After the initial sharpening of a new chisel or plane iron, which is time fairly consuming irrespective of the method used, I can bring by chisels and plane irons to a razor sharp edge in just a few minutes. Visitors to my shop marvel at the sharpness of my woodworking tools, thanks to a marvelous instructor.
After using a slow-speed grinder to hollow-grind my cutting tools during the sharpening class, I became convinced of the inherent value of the Tormek product, despite its high cost.
BYW, I've achieved terrific results with my kitchen knives using a "steel" impregnated with industrial diamonds - way better than my old, conventional, steel.
Happy sharpening,Paul
Hello,
If you are looking for ceramic, type in macor rods in your search engine. The are an industrial company that mfgs. ceramic. The assortment is amazing. Hope this helps.
Chuck
Thanks all for the info. on ceramics.
Your second question = about the lathe ...
Yeah, the Delta is a plenty good 'starter' lathe, from my perspective. But I think once you get hooked and the budget allows, you'll want something bigger and HEAVIER!
Lathes are one tool you buy by the pound, along with other features and quality.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled