I need to replace a broken chisel and thought I would take this opportunity to upgrade from my cheap set from the big box store.
Simple question: Should I go with a next step up set–e.g., Two Cherries, or Grizzly Japanese–or should I go with a piece or two at a time, mix-and-match approach–one or two japanese chisels, a couple of western chisels, etc.–built over time?
Replies
I guess I'd like to know how you broke the chisel and if you intend on doing whatever that was any more?
If you are happy with the way the ones you had worked (before you broke one) then there's not a compelling reason to change them. Just replace the broken one.
But if you want new chisels you have lots of choices. I have heard people say "don't buy a set, just get them as you need them" but the basic set of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 an 1-inch is pretty useful and I'd start with that. Then add other sizes as you find you can use them.
If you like to go to Ebay and browse or Flea Markets you can do pretty well with odd chisels by well known makers and pay 5 - 10 bucks a chisel. You'll likely have to rehandle some and might have to fuss a bit with them to get them up and running, and you do take the chance that the temper on the occasional chisel was lost.
But if you like that sort of thing you can have fun getting a good user "set" for a low out of pocket expense.
David Carroll
I have bought one set of Footprint mortising chisels in a lifetime of woodworking. All the rest of my chisels came from auctions, flea markets, and antique shops. You have to be able to recognize good tools but most of the really old ones are good. Many of them can be bought without handles for very little. Handles can be turned easily on a lathe.
I broke it chiseling a mortise in a Padauk bench I am making. The board was 8/4, and the mortise 1"x1"x1". Although I had been pounding and prying, I think the root cause was a loss of temper (the steel's, not mine).
Prior to working on the mortise, I sharpened my chisels using the technique David Marks demonstrates on Woodworks. It was my first time using this technique, so I was moving slowly, trying to figure it out as I went along. It begins with a grinding step. I was taking my time, trying to get the edge square when, all of a sudden what seemed like a blue wave swept across the bottom 1-2 inches of the chisel tip. It broke within the first hour of use. I will certainly be more careful next time.
Will I be doing more of the same type work in the future? I would say that I have been trying a variety of projects--maple nightstands, mahogany bed frame, Padauk sitting bench--and want to keep expanding my capabilities over time. On my to-do list are a Bubinga corner table, a Wenge mail sorter, some hand tools (mallet, etc.), a cedar deck box, and the elusive workbench. I haven't done any dove-tail work . . . yet. So, I see a variety of projects and techniques in my future.
True, this is partly a want, but I also think better tools could help me produce better results.
What do you think? What do you find yourself grabbing?
Well I have a lot of chisels, way more than necessary. New and antique.
But what I use most are a set of Marple Blue Chips for rough hammering, a set of old Woodcraft Branded bench chisels for paring and a set of LN chisels for mallet work & general bench work.
I also have a set of mortise chisels, which is what I would use if I were going to to what you were.
I think the minimum number and type of chisels a person would need to do general work is a set of bench chisels (LNs, Ashley Iles American Pattern, old Stanley 750's or New or Antique equivalents). One or two longer paring chisels 1/4-inch and 3/4-inch. And 2 sash mortise chisels 1/4 and 3/8 or 1/2. I don't care for European Chisels as they are typically metric, and close, but not the same widths as 'murican.
This is a vey basic kit and if you do lots of handwork you will soon want more.
Trick is knowing when to stop buying chisels...100? 200? I'll tell you when I get there! ;-)
David Carroll
Perhaps this was mentioned in the other replies. Hone your sharpening skills as you have learned a good tool can be easily ruined. I use a water wheel grinder as this eliminates that one concern. But they are more expensive. Keep a can of water next to the grinder. Frequently dip the tip of your tool to maintain temper.
In response to what I find myself grabbing, you're getting a bit personal now!Greg
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It begins with a grinding step. I was taking my time, trying to get the edge square when, all of a sudden what seemed like a blue wave swept across the bottom 1-2 inches of the chisel tip.
That blue wave will kill the best chisel in the world. I am not familiar with David Marks' technique. But I would recommend staying away from grinding unless you have to do some really serious reshaping of the chisel. One of the easiest, best and cheapest techniques is "scary sharp." You can find a lot of descriptions by searching this site and googling the web for "scary sharp." A lot of folks freehand it when scary sharpening. I was never that good at holding my wrists steady so I use a Veritas Mark II sharpening guide. It is also pretty easy to reshape a chisel or plane blade if you go to a coarser sandpaper. The best part of "scary sharp" is that it is almost impossible to generate one of those killer blue waves.
Good Luck, GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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Thanks. That sounds like sage advice. I've been reading some posts about scary sharp and agree, my grinder needs to go into retirement, at least as it relates to my chisels and planes. And next on my wish list is the MkII.
Living in the land of Oz I look on at the handtools available in the US and marvel at the prices you guys pay. We have a fraction of the variety - mostly European and British - and pay many times what you do. You have so many amazing makers to choose from.Of the vintage chisels, my first choice would be Witherby. I have a bunch of these and they are just wonderful - great balance and terrific steel. All bought one at a time over several years, cleaned up and used frequently. Recently I bought my first and only true "set" of chisels, Blue Spruce. These are reserved for dovetails and detail work. They never fail to feel rather special.View Image The other vintage chisels I like are AE Berg. These are great parers but are too light for all round bench chisels. Also they are getting pricey these days. Witherbys are a bargain by comparison. Again, I purchased all mine individually, tossed the handles (mostly battered or missing anyway), and turned my own (see to the right, below). I think that a modern alternative to the Witherbys (outside of Ashley Iless, of which I only know by reputation) are the Japanese variety. I have a few (mainly Iyoroi and Koyamaichi) bench, slick and dovetail types, and these hold the best edge of all. View Image So many good choices. It is really hard to go wrong.Regards from PerthDerek
Derek,
Those photos of your chisels are a good reminder to the rest of us not to play "one upsmanship with you. I am quite jealous of your collection. Hey, I have a plan.
Is there any chance you would adopt me?
"Melvin Cohen" has a nice ring to it. I could call you "Dad".
and besides, I get the chisels when you don't need them any more.
:-)
Of course, all of the assumes that you are older than I am.
Not much chance of that. I went to high school with Methusela.
Have fun.
Keep posting photos of your tools so the rest of us can drool and cry.
Heck, I just called the guys from Lie Nielsen, and they had all seen the photos of your chisels and they were jealous.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Derek,
Nice. "The Playboy Mansion of Chisels." At the very least, Rockefeller Center. You've built quite a stable. A chisel for every occasion. Makes me wonder which is your favorite this season--something new, or the one from way back when? Sounds like it would be hard to pick.
Thanks for the inspiration
Danny
Simmer down, Mel.
Some of us are put here to carve out our place in life, the rest are just chiselers.
Ray
Some of us are put here to carve out our place in life, the rest are just chiselers
Ray, that is toooo funny! :)
Mel and Danny, I do like using chisels more than any other tool. So a few have followed me home. I'm a sucker for a sad face. I am quite proud to show off my family (give me any excuse to do so!). However the point of the exercise is that, with the exception of the Blue Spruce, which are also the only new items here, I have acquired each one individually and, with the exception of the Japanese (and some of these are planned for modification - I want paring handles for the fishtails), every chisel has been refurbished or reclaimed in some way. At the least I have made new handles for all, including all the Oval Bolstered Mortice chisels. It has taken quite a few years because these chisels are in very limited supply in Australia or I have to drop out often on eBay (USA). I suspect that it is a much easier process in the US.
Melvin Cohen? Mel, I'm afraid that name is already taken. I saw it somewhere ... unless that was you practicing? I have always wanted a daughter, however ...
Regards from Perth
Derek
You might want to check out the article a few months back in a rival magazine (very "POPULAR") by Frank Klaus. He was talking about basic hand tool selection. There was a side article on which brand chisels to get. In a real world test, he compared a number of brands, including hirsh, narex, Japanese, sorby, etc. about 10-15 in all.
He found that the best was good old (ugly) Blue Chip, by Irwin (formerly Marples).
Lonnie Bird, in a different article, talked about modifying these chisels to make them better balanced and get a better malleting surface. (Basically, chopping an inch or so of the handle.)
FWIW, for the price, its hard to go wrong. And you won't have much invested in them if you do want to get L-V, etc. down the road.
Thanks for all the a valuable advice.
I am leaning toward building up a set of Lie-Nielsens a piece or two at a time. Reasoning:
I'm not ready to plunk down $300 just yet, but I could swing about $100 now, $100 later, and so on.
My only real concern is related to my sharpening skills. I will have to work out my technique with the big-box chisels and then be extremely careful with my first one or two L-Ns to ensure I don't ruin them. Worse comes to worst, I will only ruin my first couple, not a whole $300 set.
What do you think?
Gettin Ther,I don't think your ready yet to pull the trigger on a set of expensive chisels. I'm in the same place so i may be just projecting.
Over the past few years I've been buying one or two of different brands with different characteristics. I'm beginning to develop a specific preference for a chisel given the job at hand, but I haven't covered all my bases yet and need to let things evolve a bit more. I'm not worried about redundancy, you can always use more than one chisel in a particular size to avoid re-sharpening.
I'm thinking about getting a cheap set with full range of sizes because recently I've come to appreciate wider chisels and would like to cut once at the dovetail baseline. After that I'd like to try a shorty.
When all this is settled I'm hoping deciding between LN's, two cherries, blue spruce, etc., etc. will be easier....probably not :)
My local Woodcraft sends out $15 coupons about twice a year. Whenever I get one of those I buy a Lie-Nielsen chisel (at $35 instead of $50). Right now I have the 1/8" and the 1/4". I really like them, and would highly recommend them. Also, look into old chisels at flea markets, tool meetings, etc. I have found great chisels there.
Depending on where you live the flea market route may not be a feasible approach. If not you have several choices that will work. Flea market tools are not really available to me so here's what I've done.
My first set of chisels was a Marples Blue Chip. The set was cheap (I bought it 25 years ago when I had to be much more careful about what I spent). I bought them after buying and returning a set of Italian-made chisels I found disappointing. They worked fine for most of what I did but they are not designed for heavy mortising of the type you described doing in really hard wood. I bought three Japanese mortising chisels at the same time. They were much, much more effective for mortising.
I have since bought four other sets of chisels: 1) a hardware store set of recent vintage Stanley which I use for rough construction outside (fences, garden structures, etc.; 2) a complete set of Lie-Nielsen chisels, which are fine chisels but seem delicate and best suited for paring and which I think are best when fitted with the longer handles (I've tried them with both the short and long handles); 3) a set of hand made cabinet makers chisels made by Barr Quarton (http://www.barrtools.com/) which are the best cabinet makers chisels I've ever used or seen; 4) a set of English style mortising chisels made by Ray Iles which bought from Tools for Working Wood (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-MORT.XX&Category_Code=TBMC).
The latter two sets are the best. The cabinet makers chisels made by Barr Quarton are the best chisels I've ever owned, used or seen. The quality is unmatched. They are far stronger than any other cabinet makers chisels on the market come razor sharp - hand sharpened by Barr, and can be used for mortising, paring, or virtually anything.
The Ray Isles mortising chisels are absolutely fantastic. They are virtually equal in quality to the Barr Tool Works chisels but, of course are a different style with a different purpose. Mortising with them is a joy and much more precise than with bevel-edged chisels.
Since money is a concern I would replace the chisel you broke and then start buying high quality chisels one at a time (or save your money and buy the starter set of Barr chisels for about $350). Learn to sharpen the set you have - spend a lot less time grinding and a lot more time using some good water stones and you will keep the temper and have much sharper, more effective chisels. For the heavy mortising you are doing you need either a good quality set of chisels or hog out the mortise with a brace and bit or other drill and then clean up the mortise with your Blue Chips. Working with hard, high quality wood as you are doing will be much easier and more satisfying with good chisels.
But, keeping your tools sharp is the most important thing you can do. It will just take more time with the softer steels in the Blue Chips (or Stanleys like those I use for rough construction work). The Blue Chips and Stanleys work fine for most things I do but I keep them razor sharp. The Blue Chips are maybe softer than the cheap Stanley set and more subject to edge degradation.
Hope this helps.
Informative post thank you!
ALL,
I will second tools alaska on the recommendation of Barr chisels. I use the larger Barr chisels (1.5 and 2") and a Barr Slick. I chop Deep and wide mortises in hardwoods while timber framing. The steel is amazing, it holds an edge for an extremely long time.
I dream of owning the Barr bench chisels some day or for that matter any other steel Barr Quarton has worked.
My current "good" bench chisels are a "reclaimed" set of old West German Supreme chisels, which take and hold a good edge. Bought the entire set for very little off eBay. (Of course I had to invest quite a bit of time into bringing them back to working order, but it is a labor of love for me.)
IMO... Old chisels are the way to go if you have time/enjoy finding and refurbishing them. With new chisels, I personally would avoid the low/middle priced chisels and go with any one of the great "boutique" manufactures out there.. If you have the money...
max
Get what works best for the situation and you'll appreciate the variety and unique tallents of each.
As a finish carp I use and abuse chisels, sometimes there's no way to know if a hidden nail is lurking just under the skin where a latch or hinge mortice has to go. Sometimes I'm chopping out large chunks of oak with the help of a stubby 2lb hammer when fitting stair newel posts.
My primary choice for general purpose use has been marples because they are cheap, hold a decent edge and the plastic handles hold up to abuse. However they don't feel right in the hand until polished all around.
A favorite chisel has been a run of the mill Stanley with broken plastic handle that was bent by the original owner about 2" up the blade, where the heat treatment stopped, when used as a pry bar. I cut and rounded the handle, polished all around and it was a wonderfully comfortable palm chisel that could sit flat on a surface because of the bend. The most wonderful tool for cleaning glue from inside corners or even in place of a razer for cleaning paint from the corners of windows. I returned it to the original owner as a gift when he was shocked at it's new look and function. I need to take another and bend/cut to replace it.
Some antiques can be reworked to be as covited as any, and if a reworked chisel comes from a friend or family member every time it's used I'll think of them.
For the worst cutting I have a set of 6 year old Craftsmen chisels (1/4" to 1") made from an alloy that doesn't keep a fine edge well, but holds it's basic shape better than high carbon when encountering nails and concrete. Sometimes these are used as scrapers, and are most often resharpened with a belt sander before wet/dry carbide sandpaper sharpening.
The carpentry chisel that is kept in the tool bags during framing or finish is a very sharp 1-1/2" craftsman chisel. It's stubby fat blade fits my bags and holds a leather cover. Even though it doesn't hold a fine edge well, the alloy blade makes up for it in the ease to which it handles tough cutting and scrapping.
Then there's a collection of carving chisels that make oddball situations go faster.
As much as I appreciate reworking inexpensive chisels, the most perfect tools of any kind I've ever owned are slightly cleaned up LN's.
Appreciate each chisel for what it is and what it's not. Gift those chisels that no longer seem right in your collection to the younger woodworkers and for that stage in their life it will be every bit as heatfelt as a LN gift to us.
A famous carver, a monk from tibet maybe, showed his carving chisels--all hand made, and it was humbling how each was so different and mostly made from car and motorcycle springs by hand. He cherrished each for it's purpose and probably has great memories of where the part came from and what he had to do to shape it. Very cool.
Good chiseling
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Excellent post!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Go the flea market route. My entire collection, (at least 25), is a mishmash of Stanley, Greenlee, Buck Bros., etc. I bet the most I ever paid was $5.00 for a bench chisel. They are easy to clean up, flatten the back, sharpen, and maybe turn a new handle. In fact, used ones are no more work than the tuning required on a new one.
I'll second that, Bob. Great post Idaho! Great tips in general, guys. Thanks.
Timely thread you've started here, GT. After using my Marples chisels for my current project, I'm yearning to upgrade also. There's an article in FWW #139 (Nov/Dec 1999) that you might find interesting. Yes, it's an older article, but the info on handle styles, Rockwell hardness, and the "toughness test" they did still might be of use. I was not surprised to see that the Marples didn't do so well. If you don't mind having to stop frequently to touch up the edge, they're OK, but for regular use, I'm headed to a different brand.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 7/3/2007 12:39 pm by forestgirl
GT, I started with an odd bunch of chisels in the late 1960's having just left the Navy, newly wed and started to raise three kids. Not a lot of spare bucks for fine chisels.
I had three of my late dad's Swedish tools with the shark logo, found garage sale tools and cleaned them up without knowing that Jennings, Barton and others were much better than the Sears set that I couldn't afford. In later years found FWW, EBay and the internet sellers(Lee valley, rockler, garret wade etc.) and wound up with a serviceable set of very odd tools augmented with a bunch of crown's bench and mortise types. There is little you could not do with these a few Henry Taylor's and Japanese dove tail chisel.
I have since given myself a birthday present (it's July 4) of a full set of the LV utility bench types and a full set of Sorby's London pattern types to move into my new shop. I finally listened to Boss C.time to work wood , not fuss with old tools. All the best, Paddy
Yo Paddy,
Boy is that post deja vu for me too. The Boss is right though.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
So, I have finished the project that triggered this topic. See "Hand-scraped Padauk Bench" (36701.1) in the Knots Gallery section if you are interested.
Thanks for all your helpful advice. I promise to use it only for good. I am headed to a town with a Woodcraft in a little over a week. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Just closing this discussion out for future readers (repeats some info in related thread).
I went to two different woodcraft stores and found neither carried Lie Nielsen chisels by the piece, only by the 5-piece set. And, on top of that, neither had a set in stock. I looked over the Pinacle set and decided against. They carried Pfiels, Sorby's, and some Japanese by the piece, but I decided against all of those.
Instead, I asked around ("Best Source for L-N Chisels?" 37039.1), and looked around, and found on online retailer, http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/, that sold L-N chisels by the piece for no tax, no shipping. I ordered two bevel edge chisels, 1/4" & 1/2". It was a good experience. The online ordering tool was more straightforward than most (e.g., I didn't have to open an account), customer service was responsive and knowledgabe, and the tools arrived in 2 days. They look great. (I will attach an indulgent photo later.)
Right away, I made up an excuse to use the 1/2", paring a custom trip piece for my kitchen cabinets. I couldn't believe how smoothly it slipped through the wood, or how clean a surface it left behind.
I am convinced this was the way to go--buying a couple of high quality chisels rather than a medium-quality set. My other 2-3 older, cheaper chisels will get all the rough work, but if I'm dealing with hardwood or other finish work, the L-N's will get the call. This way, I have the cheaper chisels to take risks with, and still get the pleasure of using great chisels when appropriate.
Good luck with your decisions.
Danny
Here is the snap of the chisels, along with some gratuitous lawn porn.
View Image
Thanks all for the advice and counsel. I truly appreciated all the various points of view and finally went with what sounded best for my situation. Cheers.
Edited 8/9/2007 9:35 pm ET by GettinTher
Hello GT,
If you ask a big group of individual people what you should or could do on a certain topic,your going to get maaaaannnnnnnnyyyyyy different opinions or suggestions,This is not a bad thing, but: when all is said and done its "YOU" and only you that has to make the decisions also it does kind of depend on how much money you have to spend.. There's been a lot of controversy and difference of opinions on which is better, Some people will spend BIIIIIIG money on tools that are the very best, to them; they only have to spend the money only once which hey", If a person's got the bucks ,go for it ,get the big dollar tools so you won't ever have to buy another.(That is unless you use your new expensive chisel for a pry bar and break it)
And then there's those of us who belive that a tool,any tool,be it the chisel,any chisel,high or low dollar,big or small, is worthless without a person with the knowledge and know how to use it.
GT, You can take what everyone else says; if you want, to tell the truth, their all a very good bunch of people ad are very smart (a little sucking up there) but,They don't know you or you finances or any of the situations that you have to deal with in your daily and woodworking life So the very best advice that I could give you is;Check out what everyone here has to say then do what's right for you.
Sincerely,
Jim at Clark Customs
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