I am going to be attending a 12 week course at the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship and I am looking to buy my first set of high quality chisels. I have spent a lot of time surfing around the web reading post after post trying to learn as much as I can before i make any sizable purchases. After weeks and weeks of reading about different styles of chisels and different types of steel I think I am more confused than when I started. I am thinking I would like to spend around $500. I have been looking at the Lie-Nielsen and also the Matsumura’s on Japan Woodworker. They seem to be comparable in price and both seem to me to be of professional quality. If anyone has any experience with either of these I would love to hear from you. I am looking to buy well rounded set that will enable me to take on about any task, so I would also love to hear your opinions on what sizes and what specialty chisels you would recommend.
Edited 3/22/2008 9:37 pm ET by JackStack
Replies
What are you expecting to do with the chisels? Paring, chopping (not mortices), dovetails?
The LN bench chisels are good all rounders in these areas. You could end up with a large number of specialist chisels. I do not have them (I have Blue Spruce, Koyamaichi and Iyoroi, as well as vintage Western chisels for morticing, etc), but the LNs strike me as the perfect answer for the chisel to take on a course such as you describe.
I have a few Matsumura dovetail chisels, and they hold a good edge. I did need to grind the sides for dovetails (they all have a slight sidewall).
Regards from Perth
Derek
I would like to have a chisel that would perform well in all of these tasks(paring, chopping, dovetails). I have read that the LN are beveled in a manner that allows them to get into the corners of a dovetail..... Is this true?? Am I correct in assuming that if I were to buy the Matsumura beveled edge bench chisels that I would also need to buy some dovetail chisels?
Hey there. I did the 3 month class at the CFC this past summer! You'll love it. Incase you don't know, they have 6 piece sets of the Two-Cherries chisels available for you to purchase on the first day of class which is what most people go with. I believe the set was around $100 but don't quote me on that. The set has all the sizes you'll need. They are really great chisels and the first couple days are spent learning how to sharpen them. If I were you I'd just buy a great mallet. Whichever chisels you decide on prepare yourself to become intimate friends with all of them! Have fun!
I have the Matsumura Chisels and like them a lot a friend of mine has the LNs and likes them as well. One of the big differences between chisels like the Lie-Nielsen's and the Japanese Chisels is that the Japanese chisels are designed to be hit with a metal hammer. The other think to consider is that the Matsumura Chisels are made with a soft iron body with a very hard sole so while they take a great edge you can bend them more easily if you are levering wood out of a mortise. Another thing about the Matsumura chisels is that they come in a wider range of withs from 1/8th to 2" although I don't use the 2" one that much I use the 1/8th inch one a lot. As for the dovetails it is nice to have a few of the dovetail chisels as well. Either way both Chisels you mentioned are quality products. Just remember Chisels are like potato chips, you might only need 4 or 5 but a whole bag is much better:)
Troy
I have no experience with either, but this point has crossed my mind in my search: The Japanese chisels are metric, and the LN's are imperial. If you're laying out joinery with imperial rulers/tapes and cutting the joinery with metric tools... ya know? There WILL be a variance. If you're trying to clean out a dado, mortise, etc... that was router or TS cut with a chisel that is +/- 1mm in width.
That's not to say it can't be done. The Two Cherries chisels they sell @ CFC are metric. Just food for thought is all.
-JM
I have the 5 chisel LN set, plus their 1/4 mortising chisel. I find that I rarely use one or two of the intermediate sizes, and wish that I had bought a larger size, maybe an inch or larger, for paring. If you use a mortising machine the heavier duty chisels work much better for cleaning out the slots, especially the small 1/4inch ones. If you use a router to cut out slots you won't need one.
The blades need very little work out of the box, and hold an edge, of course.
The LNs fit nicely into dovetails. The handles are very hard and can take hammering with a wooden mallet, though I tend to use a small LV brass one. The handles can, however, be a source of irritation, as they're friction fit and tend to come loose when the weather changes. I personally find the handles uncomfortably small, but you can order the larger paring handles instead (or as well). If you can get to a store to try them out for comfort it would help. In all honesty I can't say that my work has improved by using them. I got by for years with lesser tools. They do make life much easier, though, and they retain their value.
Jim
My suggestion would be to buy one or two of each. Work with them. It won't take long until you know for sure which your hands (and work) like best. That's what I did, and the LN's are so much my favorite, like good pair of gloves, I rarely put a hand on the others.
I wish I was taking the course. Keep in mind that if you decide on the LN chisels, you can purchase them at their shop/office/manufacturing plant in Warren. Warren is a 10 minute or so drive from where your courses are taught. You get a 10% discount on any tools you buy at the shop. Enjoy the 12 weeks.
Kieran
Oh by the way, I love my LN chisels!
Edited 3/23/2008 1:20 pm ET by ktkamm
Jack
I was given, by my wonderful wife, a set of the Nishiki dovetail chisels from tools for working wood. It was an $800.00 set of 6. This was 5 years ago. I used them, and they were great. The steel, which was Kamaji, kept an edge longer than any chisel I've ever used. However, I never took the time to set the hoops, and they would frequently go skiddering across the shop floor, when they fell off in use. My bad.
2 years ago, due to my absolute love for everything made by LN, I bought the set of bench chisels from them. I loved them so much, I bought an additional set with the longer cocobolo handles for paring, and reground them for paring use. I dovetail with them, chop with them, pare with them, and I'd eat with them if I could. They feel great in my hands, and are terrific all around chisels. They are ground so that dovetailing is easily done.
I sold my Nishiki set last month. I was never using them anymore. The LN's are easier to sharpen, and the hornbeam handles are indestructable to normal woodworking use. My mallet is a hardwood cherry mallet that I made myself, and I can wack the living $hit out of the hornbeam, and it doesn't leave so much as a blemish.
My highest recommendation for the LN set. Until two months ago, I was using them every day. I work in inches, not metric, and the Nishiki's were always just a wee bit off (as they should, since they are metric) whereas the LN set is spot on accurately ground to 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 etc..........
Jeff
Edited 3/23/2008 1:51 pm ET by JeffHeath
Thanks to all who have responded........ It has been most helpful. I am so happy to have a place like this with access to so much experience and knowledge!!Thank you all !!!!!!!!
I do not like Japanese chisels because they have a radiused back and it is very difficult to pare a straight line with a chisel that is wider than what you are paring.
I like Hirsch, Greenlee, and Henry Taylor chisels. Some of the older Stanley chisels are good too.
I have the LN set and the buggers keep falling out of their sockets. It aint pretty, and I recommend the kids keep their ears closed every time this occurs (which is often). Good tool steel, but I'd never buy them again. I've taken to epoxying some of them into their sockets.
There are a ton of good chisel brands out there, and when speaking amongst good names, I sometimes think we are splitting hairs in rating one above the other. It's probably five times more important to get them fettled correctly.
I acquired a set of LN chisels recently, and very quickly got in the habit of tapping the end of the handle on the bench so that the handle is well seated when I start using the chisel. It's become a minor ritual (somethat like a baseball player knocking the sides of his shoes with the bat before stepping up to hit) and I hardly think about it. One of these days I'm going to order a longer paring handle to try so I won't glue the handle in.
Well, I do the same, and still they pop out on me. I've epoxyied the worst offenders.
If you take a piece of 60 = 80 grit and spin the end of the handle a couple of times ,then spiral a piece around the taper, place it in the socket and turn it a couple times,this will lightly score the mating faces with mating paralell rings and they will hold for all but the most extreme humidity swings.
Gene
Well, that's a new one. Makes sense, too. I'll give it a try.
Basically, a chisel is going to be used for chopping or paring. How well a chisel does at these tasks depends primarily on how the chisel fits in your hand. I'd repeat the advise given to get 1 or 2 chisels from the makers you're interested in and seeing how they work for you.
As for me, I pretty much only use Japanese chisels. Mine are Fujihiro white steel chisels made by Chutaru Imai, available from Hida Tool (http://www.hidatool.com). Budget-wise, they are very close to Lie-Nielsen, and I just love using them. They take a very sharp edge, they sharpen easily, and the edge lasts for a long time.
Although the regular Japanese chisels can be used for paring and chopping, there are specialized Japanese paring chisels, which are considerably longer than their regular counterpart. The difference in length between a Japanese paring and Japanese bench chisel is more than the difference in length between the Lie-Nielsen paring and bench chisels.
I haven't found the need for specific "dovetail" chisels yet, but then again, I don't make dovetails with super skinny pins or tails, and I haven't tried half-blind dovetails yet, which are the two situations that you would need a true bevel on the side. In the meantime, I've been able to use a 3 mm chisel to get into all the corners I've needed to so far.
As far as the metric vs. inch discrepancy issue goes, there really is no issue. If a set of plans calls for a 1/4" mortise, and you have a 6 mm or a 7.5 mm mortise chisel, make a 6 mm or 7.5 mm mortise. The piece you're making won't mind.
The LN are the most ergonomic chisels that I have used. The balance, with the hornbeam handles, is outstanding, and often commented on in this forum. Regarding the tendency of the handles to come loose from the socket - don't worry about it. One solid wack with your mallet, and they are seated for another month or two. It's only with the change in seasons that some become a little loose. I can't comment on the cocobolo though. I like mine even better now that I have hollow ground the bevel at 22 degrees, regular bevel at 30, micro at 31. I think there is more of a wedging action than before, when they were factory ground at 25 (flat ground) and honed at 30. Edge retention (which is excellent) seems the same. And no hoops to deal with. BTW, I really like the Glen-Drake brass mallet (#3) for dovetails.
John
Jack -
I recently got the LN chisel set. They are very well balanced and hold an edge extremely well.
I found this blog entry from Chris Schwarz to be interesting.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/LNChisel/LN_chisel1.asp
Josh
Regarding your new chisels--Please be sure to keep them protected from rust. An emergency two year absence from my workshop kept me from protecting some tools from the seasonal humidity in the shop. My dear set of chisels was rusted.
Best, DRF
I am sorry.. But just me. Just a old man that has used many quality and junk tools..
Old USA Army guy here that was a mechanis and sure I have used one of them $1200.00 hammers and others!
I have used tools that I could not afford in a lifetime. And alot of junk that worked for what I wanted to do.. All in All, a toss up for the length of time I used them.. Over time I am SURE it will be a VERY DIFFERENT outcome..
A set of QUALITY as you describe for $500.00.. What size set? How many blades?
Lets just say you want a 12-1/2" Maboroshi no Meito Yanagiba Sushi Knife -
About $1200 for one knife.. Is that bad or good? I have no idea . I hate eating fish!
However I'd bet it was quality AND THEN SOME! I hear some VERY well selling knives like that sell for over 5 grand each! And I'd bet they are well worth the price if you need it for EVERY DAY WORK..
I have several sets of 'Good to expensive chisels'.. All I ever see different is the length of time between sharpenings! That may be a REAL issue to a production worker! Not to me though..
My Japanese chisels do not need sharpening THAT often BUT I still have to sharpen them! Not that much hard steel to sharpen! My good set of (OLDER) Blue handles do a good job for me and I'd bet I can sharpen them to about 1 inch from the handle if I live that long.. I have NO idea how long the quality Japanese chisels can be sharpened until I run of of the good steel..
Just my thoughts.. I'd feed the wife and children first if you have them and worry about the tools after they are all fat and happy!
Ok not that FAT.... BUT REALLY HAPPY! I for one started with QUALITY tools but I was in the military then.. They seem to have our tax dollars to work with?
I guess I am saying there is NO perfect tool! Just the best you can afford AT THE TIME..
Why not get a (small set) set for your common woodworking tasks?? Three or four at most.. And do not forget that 'skinni' chisel ( the fifth ).. I do not have one but sure wish I did many times!
In line with the comment about buying one or two to try out I would look at the Ashley Ilses chisels sold at Tools for Working Wood.Try the ones with the normal handle- not the short ones. They are in the 25 dollar range and are excellent. Joel ( not a relative! ) is a pleasure to deal with.
Not that what you posted is wrong in any way. I like short handles. I seem to get better control. Again, just the way I work.
I tend to over correct position with long handles. Maybe just these old eyes!
To each his own!
When I was looking for my first set of quality chisels, I narrowed it down to about three different brands went to see Joel at Tools for Working Wood in NYC (I happened to be in town). He gave me the simplest and best advice. He said any of them would do everything I would ask of it then handed me one of each brand and asked me how each handle felt in my hand. The Two Cherries seemed to fit my hand most comfortably so I bought those and haven't regretted it.
Norman
Edited 3/28/2008 1:01 pm ET by nboucher
I have both LN chisels and Matsumura chisels, as well as some Fujihiro and Masashige chisels.
- LNs for general work 1/8" - 3/4"
- Matsumura timber chisels 1" and larger for larger pairing/chopping cuts such as mortise sides, dowels, etc
- A couple Masashige dovetail chisels from Hida Tools for cleaning dovetails - they fit between the tails to get at those pesky corners great. And, they are stronger than traditional dovetail chisels so they can withstand mortising.
- Some Fujihiro long handled pairing chisels. Fujihiro are wonderful chisels. Although, I would agree with one post that pairing with Japanese chisels with the hollow grind on the back can sometimes be tricky if the wood is slightly narrower than the chisel.
- A couple Ray Isles pig stickers for heavy duty mortising.
If you only buy one set of chisels you can't go wrong with the LN's. I like the fact that they come in 1/16 inch increments. Note that I do intend to make my own larger handles at some time similar to the Blue Spruce design. Also, A-2 steel seems to be chippy, especially at low cutting angles. I would seek out a chisel or 2 with high carbon steel for ultra fine pairing cuts with a low cutting angle (either Japanese or quality western).
The Matsumura chisels I have are all timber chisels 1" and greater - which I use a lot and really like. While they are timber chisels, they are not too large as some timber chisels may be. They work well for furniture making. I assume that they use the same steel as their bench chisels. I once had some Japanese bench chisels over 1" at one time but I sold them in favor of the timber chisels. The larger size bench chisels would tend to skate and skip over the wood when pairing. On the other hand, the Matsumura timber chisels handle such cuts with ease (for example, the sides of mortises, etc).
I do a lot of hand work and I find myself using the specialty chisels a lot. Traditional bench chisels are great for general work but they also tend to be a compromise design - similar to a traditional #4 bench plane with a 45 deg frog. While one can certainly do everything with such a plane, other planes such as jointers, block, and rabbet planes, etc, definitely makes things easier.
I purchased a complete set of Masamura "white steel" chisels about three years ago from Japan Woodworker.
I spent a lot of time setting their steel hoops, flattening them and honing them on Harris's "glass-stones" (to 16,000 grit) and storing them, lovingly, in a Lie Neilsen leather chisel roll. From time to time I take one out, admire myself in the mirror polish, and put it back in the roll.
In my experience, these are wonderful chisels for working soft woods, but their edges are very fragile, and they don't hold up when pounding them into hardwoods -- even cherry. I have tried to use them for dovetailing duty, and they do well if you've removed the lion's share of the waste with a coping/band saw, and are simply paring away a thin layer of wood to your gauge baseline. They're wonderful when working softwoods and can go days without sharpening, when asking them to perform that sort of duty.
i used my largest Matsamura (2") to work on an orange osage stave (making a bow with my son-in-law) over the weekend, and the edge of the chisel was very quicly reduced to a series of very fine serrations. The tool was still razor sharp, but you could hold the edge up to the light, and see numerous missing "chips" of steel where the super-hard edge had chipped away.
We were not doing any pounding, but merely working the chisel into the wood and removing layers of wood, which is what you do when shaping a native-american bow from a billet of orange osage.
Osage is extremely hard, fibrous wood, but I was disappointed that the white steel lamination didn't hold up better than it did.
In today's dollars, I probably have close to $800 invested in Japanese chisels, plus I have a full set of Ashley Isles chisels; they were also a disappointment, as they represent the opposite end of the hardness spectrum, and are little better than my old, blue Marples chisels.
I have noticed that many of FWW's contributing editors (the ones who give "how tos" on bench chisel use) have resisted my approach. instead of buying a complete set of bench chisels from one maker, they've accumulated a bastardized set of "mutts," over a long period of time, and each chisel has a "sweet-spot" for the task it's being asked to perform.
I think this is the right approach.
Is the Lie Neilsen set of bench chisels the "be-all end-all" of sets? Who knows. I love LN tools and admire the craftsmanship, but they don't make a full range of sizes (nothing bigger than 1"), so you'd still need to purchase other chisels to round out your set.
I've learned on thing, painfully, and that is that spending a lot of money on hand-tools doesn't always net the return ( in the shop) that you hope it will.
Just a suggestion, if you decide that you want to give your Japanese chisels another try:I wouldn't paint all Japanese chisels with the "chips easily in hardwoods" brush, any more than I would decide that all western planes are poor quality by using a Groz bench plane. As a point of comparison, most of my chisels are made by Imai, which are also white steel, and I never really had an issue with chipping. I have a few Matsumura chisels, and once I got past the brand new edge, they behaved much better.Many Japanese chisels get better as you use them, especially when it comes to the chipping issue. For a new Japanese chisel, once you get past the first 1/8" or so, the chipping issue usually becomes nonexistent.If this interests you, try grabbing one of your Matsumura chisels that is a common size, like a 1/4" or 1/2", and stick with it for an 1/8" of sharpening. But I agree that the way to go with chisels is to get a few at a time. Right now I'm happy enough with the Imai chisels that I really wouldn't look for another maker, but a lot of that has to do with how the chisel feels in my hand, which does vary a lot from blacksmith to blacksmith.
Edited 3/31/2008 5:43 pm ET by wilburpan
I had no idea that Japanese chisels possessed those characteristics.That's very interesting and also a great relief. Although, it may be a long time before I remove an eighth of an inch of steel by sharpening on my Shapton GlassStones.I will certainly follow your advice.Thanks for the encouragement.
My Matsumura timber chisels that I have seem to hold their edge well - at least for American hardwoods. I haven't tried really tough tropical woods with the timber chisels. Besides trying different brands one could also try different types. For example, I think I would be quite happy without the LN cabinet chisels in favor of the beefier LN mortise chisels along with some Japanese or older western pairing chisels, a dovetail chisel or two and one or 2 of the beefy Ray Isles pig stickers.
I agree.I've been watching the FWW videos featuring guys who have much more hand tool experience than I do. Most of the contributing editors have thoughtfully assembled collections of chisels in the manner you describe -- a chisel or two at a time -- and mostly to suit a specific project need. They don't seem to be slaved to any one maker or style.I don't have a lot of time to experiment with different hand tools, since retirement is still some years off. I've been trying to read up (in "knots") on the best tools, then save up 'till I can afford them. It's been hit and miss, so far. Sometimes I'm pleased with a purchase and sometimes not.I really like the weight and feel of my Japanese chisels. I've ground their bevels to 30 degrees, and I then take them to the Shapton stones and hone to 16,000. I have been worried that the edge brittleness that I've experienced may have come from my getting them too hot on the Veritas sharpening platter, but I don't think so.Another possibility is that Harrelson Stanley's side-sharpening method may not mate well with Japanese laminated steel technology.I dunno. I've read that side-sharpening can produce a fragile edge, but I don't know.
Actually, the Veritas sharpening machine (I'm assuming you mean the one with a turntable that you put sandpaper on) could get a Japanese blade hot enough to cause problems. Japanese steel, once it's made, hardened, and tempered, tends to be more sensitive to heat. The only motorized sharpening tool I would use on a Japanese tool would be a Tormek or some other motorized waterstone machine.If you're looking for a quick way to get rid of the front edge of your Japanese chisels, try a coarse diamond stone. I use the Shapton Professional waterstones for sharpening, and love how they work. But the one problem with waterstones, Shaptons included, is that as you get down to the coarser grits the waterstone tends to dish more easily. A 220 grit waterstone will get rid of a lot of steel fairly easily, but you'll wind up with a face that's not exactly flat. Using a coarse grit diamond stone eliminates that problem.A coarse grit diamond stone was the last stone I bought when I was putting together a sharpening system. I can't believe that I didn't get one sooner.Coarse sandpaper on a granite, glass, or any other really flat surface, will work as well, but I never really liked the whole Scary Sharp method.The side sharpening method should work just fine with Japanese tools, especially since Harrelson Stanley uses and sells Japanese tools. I tend to sharpen with the tool on a skew, but for completely different reasons than worrying about the edge chipping.Hope this helps!
Edited 4/1/2008 10:24 am ET by wilburpan
What you say makes a lot of sense -- especially about Harrelson's sharpening techniques (since he sells Japanese chisels) being fine for use with the chisels he sells.I don't think I've overheated the metal, because I keep my finger tips on the backs of the chisels as they're being ground, and I'm quick to lift up when I feel them getting warm.I have the Tormek grinding setup, too, but was advised not to grind a hollow into Japanese chisels because of the engineering of their laminations. I was advised that the resulting hollow behind the hardened steel layer weakens it.Anyway, the coarsest GlassStone I have is the 1000 grit, but I also have the GlassStone lapping plate to flatten my stones, so "dishing" isn't much of a concern. I would like to have one of the coarser Shapton stones, but i have three DMT 11.5" "Dia-Sharp" stones that I've embedded in a jointed 2x4, keep at my bench, and use for sharpening my card scrapers. When I want to put a quick edge on one of my Marples Blue Chips (paint-can-openers) I will run them over the coarsest of the three DIa-Sharps, and that removes the steel pretty fast.I will experiment with the Japanese white steel chisels, and see if (maybe using the 1/2" chisel) some further grinding and honing will firm up the edge.Thanks for the suggestion.
Just to beat the overheating thing a little more :@) remember that the very tip of the chisel is pretty thin. Because it's so thin, it can heat up considerably before the main body of the chisel, where you finger would be, gets warm.Go ahead and use your coarse diamond stones on your Matsumuras. My coarsest Shapton is also the 1000, but for anything coarser I use a diamond stone.I also have a Tormek, but I mainly use that on my Japanese chisels when I needed to change the bevel angle, when I really needed to get rid of a lot of steel (think chipped Japanese chisel when I dropped one once), or when initially rehabbing a used Japanese chisel. The radius of the wheel on the Tormek is large enough that the hollow made isn't very deep at all, especially compared to the hollow left by a 8" or 6" grinder wheel. So I've never worried much about the hollow that the Tormek leaves, since the support lost is pretty minimal. Besides, if you are really worried, since the hollow left by the Tormek is so shallow, it only takes a minimal amount of grinding the bevel on waterstones to get rid of it.
I bought the Lie Nielsen set a few years ago and have nothing but good things to say about them. They're of course incredibly well made and feel good in the hand, and require a bare minimum of tune up to use. I know there are fundemental differences between Western and Japanese chisels, so it might be a little bit like comparing apples to oranges. I spent some time at Lie Nielsen talking with them about how best to sharpen them, and they advise against creating a hollow bevel on them. I took their advise and have had great results.
BTW - I'm a grad of the 12-week CFC program - you'll be thrilled with the experience. Peter Korn teaches the first 2 weeks of the class and suggests that everyone hollow grind their chisels, so try to have that decision made before you go.
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