Hi,
I’m ready to start experimenting now with mortise and tenon joints/ dovetail joints. I purchased a mortise gauge a few months ago. Now when it comes to purchasing small hand tools such as try squares and combination squares….Which is better..a 4″ combination square or good quality machinists square or 6″ try square for laying out mortises and dovetails?
I also need a tool that can measure inside/outside and depth measurements. Am I better off buying a Dial Caliper or a regular Vernier Caliper. I’m looking for a caliper that is easy to adjust and easy to read.
When chopping out mortices is it best to purchase a “dedicated” mortise chisel? or would regular Bench chisels perform the job just as well? I am very tempted to buy the 1/4 ” and 3/8″ Lee Valley bench chisels. The Hirsch mortise chisel was very tempting.
Wanda
Replies
Hi Wanda,
For those measuring tools with graduations on them, I probably use my 4" double square most. Next is a 6" combination square and then a 12" combination square. But I use a rule and try squares more than either.
So don't forget a good ruler or two. I use the heck out of a 6" and 12" rule. Tapes I also use. Just use the same measuring method and tool on each part which receives the same joints.
I don't use calipers much.
As for mortise chisels, they do make the work easy. The Hirsch have very hefty handles. Another option is 2-3 sizes of Ray Isles from Tools for Working Wood. But if you plan on boring out your mortises with a brace and bit, bench chisels for squareing and cleaning mortises up work just fine.
Take care, Mike
Hi guys,
Since I only have a limited amount of money to spend on tools I have to be cautious. I want to make sure I'm getting the most for my money. Better to save a little extra and buy a quality tool than to buy something cheap only to end up not using it or throwing it out.
I realize there are many ways to cut a mortise and tenons. Just have to find a technique that works for me and stick with it. Tenons I can cut on the band saw. Mortises.. my plunge router. You're absolutely right why pay out a fortune for specialized tools when you can get the job done using regular bench chisels. It's not like I'm a production shop.
Think it's time to add a few rules to my collection of measuring tools. I'll have to check out Home Depot perhaps they sell Stanley 4"/6" combination squares. I have a 12" comb/square and use it all the time. But it's a bit too clumsy for marking dovetails. 6"/ 8" try square would be great to have... Other than those hand tools... Perhaps a small trimming block plane would come in handy.
Now to find the time to start working on my next small project. I was planning on building a small wall cabinet with 2 drawers/drawer dividers. to house most of my small tools. Anything to create more space in my small basement workshop.
When building frames for cabinets should you leave them 1/16" wider than the sides of the cabinet and then trim them flush using a router once the frame is nailed in place?
Wanda
Hi Wanda,
I don't think Stanley makes the smaller squares anymore. But good and small engineers, double and combo squares and the like can be had from Lee Valley for a good cost.
For dovetails, also consider a small bevel square so it can be set for the tail and pin angles. A 4" works well for this.
I often leave a little extra as you suggest for a face frame and trim off after attaching to account for a bit of out of square. A router works, as well as a hand plane.
Take care, Mike
If you use a standard bench chisel for mortises make sure you increase the bevel angle, or you'll end up crushing the edge of the blade.That said, it does work. I chopped out all the mortises (16, 1" wide) on my workbench with a cheap modern stanley bench chisel.mark
Hi mswieg,
Think I'll be ok using a bench chisel for the mortises because most of the waste will be either routered or drilled out and then cleaned up using the chisel. I imagine it would take some time chopping out a deep mortise using a bench chisel. Have you watched the Finewoodworking video on How to cut mortises, by Franz Klause? excellent video!!!!!!!!! He makes it look so easy.
Right now I really can't justify purchasing a specialized mortising chisel.
Wanda
Wanda,
If you're using bandsaw and router to do tenons/mortises, do you need to mark them out at all?
Long ago I read an article - the author of which I can't now remember - which recommended cutting joints symmetrically so that marking out isn't needed. One of the author's points was that there is less scope to make errors, as there are less stages where information (measurements) are transcribed from one thing to another.
Basically, tenons are cut in the middle of the rail and mortises are cut in the middle of the leg (as one example).
The router straight bit diameter determines the mortise width. You can calculate the fence setting for the router by subtracting the bit diameter from the workpiece width and dividing the remainder by 2. This ensures that the mortise is in the middle of the rail.
Similarly, the bandsaw fence setting to get the matching tenon width can be obtained by taking the width of the mortise from the width of the piece to be tenoned and dividing by 2.
In fact, you can use router and bandsaw fence settings to make the joint offset from the centreline of the components, if you wish. You just have to calculate the different fence settings for the mortise and workpiece widths; and be careful about orientation. (Orientation is not an issue if all the joints are centred).
The offset of the mortise ends from the top of the workpiece (eg a leg) is set up by whatever method you use to limit the router's travel. You could just inscribe lines and route between them freehand (ie using the fence but no stops); but it's safer and easier to use a single set of stopblocks that are clamped the same way on all the legs to be routed.
Again, the top-to-bottom width of the tenon is calculated by taking the mortise top-to-bottom measurement away from the other dimension of the piece to be tenoned, dividing by 2 (or doing the offset calculation) and setting the bandsaw fence as required.
I have used this method for many years and find that, once you have got used to accurate measuring of the workpieces, the basic math and setting of fences, a perfect fit is got every time without any marking out. It does help to make a test cut until you are familiar with your fence setting scales and their accuracy. (And accurate fence scales are a "must" really).
***
To measure workpiece widths (as well as depths, heights and similar) I use a vernier with a sliding scale, as I find the dial ones too easy to misread.
Try also one of those Veritas wedges that exaggerates the measuring scale by marking it on the slope of the wedge. (Eg one tenth of a millimeter in height becomes equivalent to 10mm along the wedge). The latter tool is very good for setting accurate fence-to-blade or height-of-bit measurements. They can be got into spaces that a vernier struggles with.
***
Trying out handtools just now, as I am, it has become obvious that marking out of workpieces and their joints IS necessary, as there are no fence scales to rely on. As yet, I have insufficient experience to make any recommendations for the necessary marking out tools.
I am starting with: two steel rules; a sliding bevel-with-angle-setter; a pair of left and right beveled marking knives; one of those gauges with a movable fence on a round steel bar with a cutting wheel on the end; and a set of propelling pencils with very thin leads.
Apologies for rambling on.
Lataxe
There are always good auctions on ebay for new and used Starrett measuring tools such as 4" combination squares and double squares. Other sizes also. Good deals are available. I bought a brand new Starrett 12" combination square for less than $30, shipping in that total--I always include shipping in the total price--you are paying for it, after all. I'm not sure, but I suspect that some of the Starrett employees are selling "seconds" with cosmetic blemishes, that are brand new tools. You might want to check them out. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Lataxe me lad,
If you start out with your stock marked as to which face will show, and you have a mortise guage (marking guage with two points, independently adjustable) , you can lay out without measuring at all. Also with little regard as to whether the stock is consistant in thickness.
1) set the distance between points directly from the mortising chisel.
2) set the fence on the guage where you want it to be. You can just eyeball this, to be at or near the center of the tenon stock. Hold the fence to the "show" face. Lay out the tenons.
3) Use the same set to lay out the mortises, referencing off the show face of that stock, if it is a flush joint. For an offset joint, table leg for instance, add whatever offset you like to the fence's setting, then mark the legs.
Any use of a rule is just for convention, with this usage, as all distances are keyed to the same refence surfaces. Variations in thickness are "pushed" to the back/inside of the joint, where they can be flushed up after assembly if necessary.
Only measuring to do is the length of stock, between tenons.
It is interesting to note that early rules were frequently shop made, and not commonly graduated finer than 1/8", often 1/4" was the smallest graduation.
Regards,
Ray
Ray,
That is useful information concerning the marking out sans ruler. I do like a method of minimum stages between setting up and cutting, as Erroneus is my middle name.
I also see that the stock thickness could vary, but old habits die hard and I'm not sure I can stop making the planks uniform in all dimensions to that 1/10mm. I suppose the 10ths might have to be abandoned, when the precision of machines is replaced by my shakey hands and bleary eyes. :-)
Lataxe
Hi Lataxe,
Take me sometime to digest all of that info. LOL I'll either be using the drill press or plunge router to do the mortises and a chisel for cleanin gup the edges of the mortise.
While we're on the subject of mortice/tenon joinery... I have a 1/4"Delta upward spiral router bit.... with a 1/4" shank. Would I be better off purchasing a 1/4" diameter bit with a 1/2" shank? or would the 1/4" shank bit be better because it gives you that extra depth? I realize 1/2 " shank is less likely to break. But then if you only take small passes I think the smaller shank would be ok. I saw a Freud 1/4" diameter 1/4" shank straight bit for sale at Home Hardware for $15.00.. I'm very tempted to pick that up. Although I have a upward sprial bit.
Wanda
Wanda,
I use two upcut spiral bits for mortising
- a solid carbide 1/2" CMT which is 4" in length with a 2" cutting length. This is a hefty, stiff bit that will plunge cut to ful depth(at either end of the mortise) and then take out 1/4" deep swipes without any bother. I prefer to use it in a woodrat, as this keeps everything straight. I dread dropping or otherwise knocking it, as solid TCT is rather brittle....and expensive.
- a 4" long 1/4"shank HSS upcut bit with an 8mm (5/16") and a cutting length of about 1"(although it can still be plunged to 2"). This works the same as the bigger bit but I am a lot more careful with the depth of swipe cuts, as such a long narrow bit seems more likely to snap easy, if pressed. The thing is, it is very handy for doing deep mortises of only 5/16" wide, even if it does require endless passes of shallow cuts.
Again, this narrower bit is safest to use in the woodrat, so there is less liklihood of bending it during the mortising operation. It was made and sold by Woodrat but is no longer available, perhaps because a few got snapped!
Logically, the longer and narrower the bit in terms of its cutting depth, the more likely it will be to inadvertently suffer enough sideways force to snap it. I suppose this is why you can't generaly find long narrow bits like that woodrat one of mine.
Lataxe
Hi Lataxe,
I have never come across a straight router bit with a 2" depth of cut. I believe the one I have is only 1" (depth) 1/4" diameter/ 1/4" shank. I must look up CMT. And yes the solid carbide are expensive. I think the longest straight router bit on the LeeValley website was only 1" depth of cut.
Wanda
Wanda,
High quality marking tools and rules are worth their weight in gold. They get used constantly with hand work and the good ones are highly readable and hold their adjustment. I use a 6" combination all the time and a 12" when required, both are Staretts(sp?).
I bought the Shop Fox wheel gauge, works well but not even close to the quality of the Veritas or LN model....its a real pain making micro adjustments on the Shop Fox. I will replace the Shop Fox.
The dial calipers are a must too.
I've been looking for used mortise chisels at a decent price, so far no luck. I do a fair amount of thru-mortises where the face side opening needs to be clean and tight around the tenon. Their are numerous issues when cutting mortises not the least of which is keeping the mortises straight and the walls square. Personally, I'm not confident enough to slam a mortise chisel...I rather take small bites with either bevel edge or firmer chisels....especially when the mortise is close to the end of the quarter sawn stock. My point is I'm not in such a big hurry for the mortise chisels.
BG, Have you checked out the Lee Valley website for mortising chisels. Sorby is a high quality chisel. Not sure if you consider their prices too expensive. If I were to purchase a mortising chisel I'd probably buy the Sorby chisel. But for now I'll just buy a 1/4" and a 3/8" Lee Valley bench chisel.
Well I must go in search of 4"-6" combo square. Lee Valley I think might have a 4" combo square. Unfortunately they don't come cheap. I phoned our local tool shop the other day inquiring about a Starett combo 6" square. I was quoted a price of $60.00 Canadian. They have to import from the states so I guess that gets passed on to the consumer.
Wanda
Wanda
Wanda,
The Sorby's are nice..but I am going a bit more primitive..
http://www.mjdtools.com/auction/graphics/a197343.htm
They had/have several sets at the auction last week...the price is their estimate as to the value.
I bought my Staretts about 3 years ago for about $54 US...
Starrett stuff is always expensive, imported or no, the cost of extreme precision.
Re: your question about bevel square v. dovetail saddle: I've not tackled dovetails yet. As mentioned above, you're sure to have your personal preference. I'd be inclined to try the dovetail saddle. No moving parts, easy to handle. But that's just me.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Wanda, Lee Valley should have everything you need, accurate and at a good price, especially since they are a Canadian company. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forest Girl,
Glad to hear you are also a fan of Lee Valley. They just opened up another store in Toronto. Wish they'd open up a store here where I live.
They do have excellent customer service and quality tools. After all it's a Canadian store!
I was just wondering if one of those specialized gadgets.. think they call them dovetail saddles... anyways they're used for marking out tails and pins for dovetails... I was thinking on purchasing those instead of the more expensive marking tool (4" bevel Square). If I use the bevel square I'm going to have to need a protractor to mark the correct angle usually around 80 degrees. What would you suggest?
Wanda
A vernier caliper isn't easy to read. A dial caliper is inexpensive from places like http://www.use-enco.com or http://www.wttool.com About $15 for a 6" caliper. I don't recommend the ones in fractions. It's better to learn to read decimals. I use them in metal working and wood and find them very handy.
Wanda,
You often ask which tool or which technique is best. Everyone I know does mortises and tenons differently, including the layout. Everyone does dovetails differently. There is no universal "best" set of tools or techniques.
So I recommend not worrying too much about getting the best square or marking gauge. If you try to use a square of any sort that is too big, you'll figure that out pretty quick. So a smaller square of any type is just fine. A four inch or a six inch is fine for most. A 12 inch for the bigger work.
About chisels. If you are going to chop hundreds of mortises, then by all means, get a nice set of chisels which are specialized for mortising. If you are wealthy, don't even think about it. Just buy one of each of expensive stuff. You cant take the money with you when you die. Might as well buy and use nice tools.
BUT if you are limited in funds, then you can use your bench chisels for everything including mortising. This is especially true if you are only going to chop 10 mortises a year.
The best way to learn what is "Best" for you is to try out a few different ways and different tools. Do this by visiting other woodworkers and trying their tools.
After you buy chisels, you are probably going to ask which way is best to sharpen them. There are a thousand ways. All of them work best for someone. Use any of them, then use another. If the second way doesnt work better, then go back to the first.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
My 2 cents
I like a small square and I really don't like machinists' squares. I don't like the way they feel. I much prefer my shop made wooden squares or old stanley's. You could make a metal square with a wooden handle- that'd be a fun project. Otherwise, a 4" square is a nice size for M&T joinery.
I recommend finding an antique 5/16" mortiser or a new Ray Illes chisel from toolsforworkingwood.com Don't use bench chisels for mortises.
Adam
I would say a 4" and a 12" is my choice..
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfromZR9QQfromZR9QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQfstypeZ1QQsassZ513zagQQsspagenameZSTRKQ3aMEFSRCHQ3aSRCH
Check this seller on eBay he is low now but has some great deals on Starrett tools like the 12" combo square blades for $9 he also has some great deals on 6" scales..
I have a 12" Mitutoyo square head LN I would part with for 1/2 of new that would fit the Starrett rule..
You can contact me at http://www.rexmill.com
Hope it is ok to post this here, I am sorry if it is not..
Johnny K.
Hello Rarebear,
I was just looking at that link you sent me. Can the starett square head ($21.25) fit the Starett combination 6" blade rule($10.95) ? or does that only fit on the 12" combo square?
Wanda
The 4" and 6" and 12" combo square take different size blades..
The 6" DOUBLE Square fits a 12" combo square blade and that is about all that can be swapped :)
Wanda,
Since I cut all of my mortises by hand, my recommendation, naturally, will be to go the mortise chisel route. You really only need a couple (1/4 or 3/8 & 1/2 or 5/8 inch will probably cover 90%+ of your mortising needs); you can always add additional sizes as you need them. Mortise chisels will work (much) better than bench chisels simply because they're designed to cut mortises: thicker, square-sided, more durable bevel geometry, and equipped with handles that are meant to be beaten on with a mallet.
I've done M&T with a drill-press-mounted hollow square chisel and bit, by using a (usually) forstner bit followed by bench chisel clean up, and just plain mortise chisel. The only results I really like are with the mortise chisel.
Cutting them by hand allows you to get them just right, without a lot of expensive machinery, jigs, etc. It's also a lot quieter, generates less saw dust, etc. It is also harder to make a catastrophic mistake when chopping mortises by hand (you can, but it's been my experience that you have to try REALLY hard to mess them up....)
For laying out mortises, my recommendation would be a quality combination square (Starrett) and a good mortising gauge (knife type, rather than pin type -- or if you get the pin type, grind the pins into a knife-like shape); the combination square size needed mainly depends on the size of projects you're doing: either the 6 inch or the 12 inch would be the most versatile.
Dovetails? Unless you want to do some type of special dovetails or use unusual angles, the simplest way is to get a pair of LV's dovetail saddles. Quick, easy, and consistent. If you want to go a more traditional way, then a good combination square (12 inch is probably more useful in this case), a sharp thin-bladed marking knife, and a quality bevel gauge.
Hope that this is of some use to you.
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!
James
Wie geht es Ihnen?
Vielen Dank. One of these days I will get around to making dovetails. I have a mortise gauge. (pin style) Now I need a pair of Veritas dovetail markers from Lee Valley. Then I don't have to buy an expensive combo/ double square, protractor (for setting the bevel angle for the dovetail 1:6) or a 4" bevel. So many great woodworking "gadgets" at Lee Valley. I just received their 2006/7 catalog in the mail today. Wow! One thing I will definitely buy is a good 12"cabinetmaker"s rule and a 6" engineer's square. What do you think about their 3-1 brass making gauge? Can a mortise gauge be used for laying out dovetails as well as mortises? or do I need to buy a wheel gauge? The Veritas bevel setter looks interesting but If I buy the dovetail markers I won't be needing that but it would come in handy for other projects. Setting various angle is supposed to be easier and more accurate with this tool than a regular protractor.
Haven't decided on what chisels to purchase. I was thinking about purchasing a Lee Valley bench chisel but they aren't the best for cutting out dovetails. I would love to splurge and invest in a good 1/4" Hirsch mortising chisel. The handles are thicker than the ones on the Sorbey chisels. Now to find a quality dovetail chisel 3/8". I think the Hirsch Firmer chiesl might be ok for cutting out the waste for dovetails and for cleaning up the sides of a mortise (good for light duty mortising and heavey -duty paring) Think that takes care of most of my needs right now. I suppose I can cut the dovetails on the bandsaw. Otherwise I'd be out more money.. I'd have to buy one of those Japenese Dozuki saws. Could always just stick to joining drawers together with rabbit and dado joinery. But for some reason I'm fixated on dovetails. :)
So many choices... It's overwhelming. Now I have to decide what method I'm going to use.. traditional hand method or machine (plunge router). Um Himmels Willen!
Grüße auf Newfoundland James,
Wanda
Sehr geehrte Wanda!
Es geht mir ganz gut, danke! Und Ihnen? Mit einer Deutschsprechenderin ist es immer gut miteinander eine Rede halten!
<<Vielen Dank. One of these days I will get around....>> Bitte, sehr!
The LV catalogue.....one of my four favorite toy catalogues!! They have way too much nifty stuff....
If your mortise gauge can (be set up to) cut a single line, then you can certainly use it for marking the shoulders of your dovetails. Have never used one, but the 3-in-1 looks pretty versatile, and the price is certainly right.
Go for the dovetails!!! They're a lot of fun to cut (by hand), look great, and, of course, are very strong. For cleaning out the waste down in the "corner" of your dovetails, you need a chisel with a thinner side profile than you're likely to get with most firmer chisels; take a look at the Japanese style chisels, as well as the LNs, Ashley Iles, etc. You don't really need a specialised dovetail chisel; a bench chisel works pretty well, unless you're cutting tiny dovetails. Dovetail saws: IME a dozuki works pretty well, but I've found that a purpose-made dovetail saw is a real joy to use !!! Mine's an LN, but the Adria, or one of Mike Wenz's custom saws would also be great choices.
<<Grüße auf Newfoundland James>> You live up there where it gets REAL cold in the winter......
Hope this is of some help in your quest for good tools!Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!
James
Guten Abend,
So ein Sau Wetter! Heute es war sehr kalt! Usually the fall is quite pleasant. Great for hiking. The winters are more moderate than the rest of Canada. At least it is not as cold as out west during the winter months.
I was researching chisels today and came to the same opinion as you did. No need to buy a specialized chisel for dovetailing. I will buy the LeeValley 3/8" bench chisel for dovetailing and the Hirsch Mortising chisel. Think that will do for now. I did take a peak at those Japenese dovetailing chisels. But they are a bit pricey. I'm on a budget. I do like that 3-1 and the price is good! I should put that on my LeeValley wishlist. :)
As for dovetail saws.. think I'll invest in a dozuki.
Tschüss
Wanda
Grüß Gott Wanda!
<<So ein Sau Wetter!>> Sind Sie ein Schwab? ;-) (In Schwabenland ist alles immer Sau gut, Sau schlimm, Sau usw.....) Es tut mir leid, daß Ihre Wetter gestern so schlimm war. Irgendwann Sie schöneres Wetter möchten, dann nach das Land der Rio Grande besuchen. Normalerweise bleibt das Temperatur im Sommer zwischen 85° F und 95° F (ungefähr 29° C und 35° C), aber ist die relative Feuchtigkeit nur 10% bis 15%. Sehr schön und sehr bequem! Im Winter ist das Temperatur normalerweise zwischen 0° F und 45° F (ungefähr -18° C und +7° C); relative Feuchtigkeit bleibt in der Nahe von 10% bis 15%. Auch sehr schön und sehr bequem!
Glad that you've decided on your chisels. You'll find cutting mortices and tenons by hand is great fun. Dozukis make pretty decent dovetails saws (and are really useful for lots of other cutting jobs, too). Have fun!Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Guten Abend James,
Was machen Sie diese Abend? Im moment bin Ich eine beschäftige Frau.. Trying to catch up on all my e-mail. So many things to read. Not enough hrs in a day.
I suppose I could always... Veilleicht, müss Ich Rio Grande besuchen. However I would melt. View Image Gestern... 10 Celsius. Was für einen schrechliche Tag! Im Summer die Temperaturen ist normalerweise zwishchen 18 und 23 Celsius. Feuchtigkeit (60% bis 75%). LOL
Bin ich ein Schwab... Nein! Ö
So many choices when it comes to purchasing tools. I'm sure I will enjoy learning to cut dovetails by hand rather than paying an arm and leg for one of those fancy dovetailing jigs.
Tja, ich muss jetzt leider gehen
WandaView Image
Edited 9/19/2006 7:57 pm by Wanda200
Grüß Gott Wanda!
Gestern Abend: zuerst habe ich eine Fleischsoße für Spaghetti gekocht. Diese Soße war die „schnelle“ Soße: nur 2 Stunden Kochzeit. (Für die „normale“ Fleischsoße, die ich meistens nur am Wochende oder Feiertage koche, ist die Kochzeit rund um 5 bis 6 Stunden.) Nach Abendessen habe ich etwas gelesen und Musik gehört.
Wenn Sie die Rio Grande besuchen, vielleicht ist es am Besten im Monat Oktober zu besuchen: Die Temperaturen sind etwa kühler. Während der ersten Wochen Oktobers, gibt es unser jährliches Ballonfest. Sehr schön!
<< However I would melt.>> Wie Schokolade? Dann müßen Sie ganz süß sein!!! :-) [Es tut mir schrecklich leid: das war gar ein furchtbares Wortspiel....]
Tools....toys....not a lot of difference there.....
Dovetails by hand is a lot of fun and a bit of a challenge to get them "perfect" (or at least close). Another one of those things where you quickly realize that the more you learn, the more there is still to learn. Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Morgen!
Gestern haben Sie Fleishchsoße gekocht... ummmmm! LOL Diese Morgen kocht ich eine Fleishschsoße... I will use it to make a lasagne for Friday's supper. Am wochenende ich gerne NFL Fußball fernsehen.. no time to cook on Sunday!
Nach abendessen ich gehe das Park spazieren. Es ist 7 minuten zu Fuß von hier. Nice to be able to get the dog out for a walk...run after supper now that the evening are becoming shorter.
The fall is a great time to travel.. Kühler Temperaturen.. for sure! eine Ballonfest im Oktober.. wow Wie Schokolade? Dann müßen Sie ganz süß sein!!! :-) Beleive me I am not sweet!!! LOL
I guess I will soon find out whether I can successfully cut dovetails.. Have to get the sawing techinique down first. Think that will be the most difficult part .. Wouldn't it be great to travel to Kelly Mahler's woodworking school. Where you could spend the weekend doing nothing but cutting dovetails. :) .
Bis dann
Wanda
Grüß Gott Wanda,
Lasagna per il pasto serale alla venerdi? Sounds like you'll be having a great dinner; hope you have a good Chianti or Valpollacella to go with it. Buon Appetito! (ein bißele früh)
NFL football, eh? What's your team(s)?
<<Wie Schokolade? Dann müßen Sie ganz süß sein!!! :-) Beleive me I am not sweet!!! LOL >> Yeah, Yeah, Yeah....that's what they all say..... ;-)
<<Nice to be able to get the dog out for a walk...run after supper now that the evening are becoming shorter. >> Dog walks, you run??? LOL Was für Hund haben Sie?
Sawing technique: best way I know of is to use a scrap of wood, draw a bunch of straight lines perpendicular to one of the edges, and start sawing to the lines. After some number of cuts, you'll find yourself sawing along/to the lines almost automatically.
You'll be surprised at how fast you pick up the technique. Probably the most important thing is to relax: let the tool do the work. (If you've studied martial arts, you want that kind of relaxed....) You can also experiment with small/subtle changes: as an example, a slight change in the horizontal and/or vertical angle of your sawing arm relative to the saw and the piece of wood can make a surprisingly large difference in the accuracy and amount of work you have to do when sawing. Changing the position of your feet can also make a substantial difference. If you're using a Western style saw, use a three-fingered grip and let your index finger "point" (along the side of the handle) where you want the saw to go; with a slight modification to your grip, this technique also works with Japanese saws.
If you find that your saw wanders to one side consistently, then the set is probably not quite what it should be. Run that side (if it pulls to the right, run the right side of the teeth -- as you look at it when holding it in sawing position; you're holding the "flat" of the blade, on the appropriate side, parallel to the the top surface of the stone, with the teeth on the stone), ONE STROKE AT A TIME, with gentle downward pressure, over a diamond or oil stone [water stones are generally too soft to do this without horribly gouging the stones]. Then try another cut. Repeat until the saw stops wandering to that side. If you over-do it, you may be able to run the opposite side over the stone to correct it or you may end up having to re-set the saw.
Anyway, once you can reliably and consistently saw to a line, you will then be able to do all of this (and more) with a hand saw: dovetails, tenons, dados, grooves, rebates, sliding dovetails, rip cuts, cross-cuts....... All with minimal waste and good accuracy. And, as a sort of bonus, if you're only making a couple of cuts, it's often faster to use a hand saw than to turn on and set up an electron-munching machine, maybe having to build a special jig in the process, etc.....Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Hallo,
Thank you for all the tips. I just finished reading an article on Half dovetails by Carl Swensson. (Finewoodworking Aug. 2006). Now after reading that very informative article I have only 1 ? remaining concerning dovetails. Say I'm using a 1X6 piece of wood for the sides and front of my drawers.. How do I determine the number of tails (width)? Marking the length is no problem.. that's usually 2/3rds the thickness of the material.
I haven' t purchased any dovetail markers from Lee Valley yet.. so how do I mark the dovetail angle using a bevel? softwoods 6:1 hardwoods 8:1 so how do I copy a 6:1 on a scrap piece of wood to set the bevel? Do I draw a baseline on a piece of scrap and then come in 1" from the side and make a mark 6" up the edge of the board and connect up the 2 lines. Then lay the edge of the bevel on the baseline and set the bevel gauge to the line drawn on the scrap piece of wood.
Now to answer your ?'s.. Was für hund habe ich? Ich habe ein Dachshund.
Are you a big time football fan? I'm a big fan of NFL football. besonderes Montag Abend Fußball. Lieblings.... Tennis, F1, Füßball und Hockey. Treiben Sie Sport? I love skiing and Hiking. Walking the dog keeps me in shape. :)
Wanda
Do I draw a baseline on a piece of scrap and then come in 1" from the side and make a mark 6" up the edge of the board and connect up the 2 lines. Then lay the edge of the bevel on the baseline and set the bevel gauge to the line drawn on the scrap piece of wood.
Draw a line 90 degrees up from say the middle of a board. Measure up 6" and over one. Set the bevel square to touch both points.
I typically use 1:7 or 1:8 and sometimes higher in really hard wood, but it's all the same principle.
fwiw, the end of my bench has scribed witness lines for the above angles so I can just set the bevel square and go.
Take care--have fun and don't worry about the result. Just keep trying.
Take care, Mike
Grüß Gott Wanda!
<<...I have only 1 ? remaining concerning dovetails. Say I'm using a 1X6 piece of wood for the sides and front of my drawers.. How do I determine the number of tails (width)? ...>>
There really is no set "rule." It largely depends on what you want them to look like. Modern furniture styles seem to favour tiny, intricate dovetails, whereas more traditional furniture's dovetails tend to be a bit larger. Beyond the obvious requirement of having enough dovetails of sufficient size to join the two pieces of wood together, the size and number is mostly a matter of matching the style of furniture being built and personal taste. (BTW, if you don't already know this, for best appearance, when you make drawers, the sides should be between 1/3 and 2/3 of the thickness of the drawer front.) (Ian Kirby's book, The Complete Dovetail, is very detailed and useful.) (Frank Klause did an article on laying out dovetails a couple of months ago in, IIRC, either FWW or PWW; it might be useful to you.)
Try this link for lots of good information on sharpening, sawing, dovetailing, M & T'ing, and hand planing: http://www.amgron.clara.net/
These also have some good info:
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer0.html
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/DovetailDrawer0.html
http://home.nj.rr.com/afoust/dovetails.html
http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm
_____
There was an interesting editorial by Chris Schwartz, in a recent issue of a competing woodworking magazine (PWW), in which he asserted that there really are very few absolute "rules" in woodworking. He also asserted, in agreement with another famous woodworker (Mike Dunbar), that having hard and fast "rules" can have the effect of reducing the actual amount of knowledge available to woodworkers, because way too many tend to go "Oh, that's the rule. OK." and give the subject no more thought (that's a bit of an over-simplification on my part, but it gets the gist across in a couple of sentences, instead of using most of a page). I tend to agree with him on both points. One of his examples was a question of which way to rest a hand plane on the bench: on the sole or on the side? The "rule" is on the side, but -- according to the editorial -- the general historical practice has been on the sole. My point in mentioning this is that you should not to get too wrapped around the axle about what the "right " way to do something is; there are usually many "right" ways. The real question is: Which one of them do you like best, have the tools for, are able to master, is safe, and gives you the results you're looking for? Mike (mwenz) also made the same point by stating that he uses several dovetail slope ratios, depending on the wood he is working with.
For woodworkers with less experience, perhaps a set of "rules" is useful -- at least at the beginning of their woodworking careers -- but, as one gains more skill and knowledge, it's been my experience that it becomes increasingly obvious that the "rules" are usually nothing more than a very useful set of general guidelines, based on what has worked in the past. Quite often, one of the problems with rules is that many of them conflict not only with each other, but also with actual practice. IME/IMO, once you understand the principle behind the rule, then you can "violate" that rule (adapt/apply variations of it to a specific situation) at will, to accomplish what you're trying to do; it's the principle behind the rule that's important, not necessarily the rule itself.... (This, of course, also applies to many other things in life....)
An example: what is the "right" way to do M & T joints? Well....you can use (1) a dedicated mortising machine, (2) a freehand (plunge) router, (3) a router set up horizontally on a router table, (3) a horizontal boring machine, (4) a drill press with a hollow square chisel and bit, (5) a drill press with a forstner bit and clean-up with a bench/paring chisel, (6) a drill press with a standard drill bit and clean-up with a bench/paring chisel, (7) a bit brace and an auger (centre, spoon, etc.) bit and clean-up with a bench/paring chisel, (8) an egg-beater hand drill and a bit and clean-up with a bench/paring chisel, (9) a portable electric hand drill and a bit and clean-up with a bench/paring chisel, (10) a mortise chisel and a mallet, (11) and probably several other techniques that I either don't know about or just haven't thought of at the moment. Which one of those 10+ techniques is the "right" one? They all are, depending on one's skill, available equipment, time requirements, etc.
So...continue to...read a lot, ask a lot of questions, attend classes whenever possible, and practice...practice...practice. You've been around this forum long enough to know that if you ask a question -- and ten people answer -- you'll get at least ten different answers.... Pick through the info and use what applies to you, your situation/project, your tools, and your skills. As long as the end result is what you were looking for, you enjoyed doing it, and it's safe, does it really matter how you got there?
_____
"Sports fanatic" is a term that most definitely does not apply to me. I'm a casual football fan (my favorite team hasn't done too well for the past couple of years....); always watch the Super Bowl, and most of the play-off games. I also like to (casually) watch F-1 racing (Ferrari fan since the middle 70s), cricket, rugby, ice hockey, and a couple of other sports. The only sports I "do" these days are running, cross-country skiing (in season), some weight lifting (mostly to control an old shoulder injury), and some Aikido (not sure that Aikido really qualifies as a "sport," more like a mental/physical discipline training activity.....). Anyway.... a good portion of my free time is spent abusing perfectly good wood, reading, cooking, listening to music, and on all the "stuff" ya gotta do in every day life.
Got a bit philosophical there for a while; hope that it didn't bore you too much.
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
...[Message truncated]
Edited 9/22/2006 2:07 pm by pzgren
Hi James,
I just wanted to mention your response is a wonderful one. Detailed, yet non-specific enough to allow lattitude in approach and methods. Enough information to get started but not so much as to push someone to paralysis by analysis. References to pique the curosity and to find out more if interested.
Thank you, James.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Thank you for the kind words. I try (not always successfully) to keep my posts to the point and to stay away from being dogmatic.
Anyway, there are many people on this forum whose posts have greatly increased my woodworking knowledge -- including you: your posts are always interesting and informative, and I've learned much from them; thank you. I'm just trying to return the favour in some small way by passing on what little I know to others.
_____
One of these days, I'm going to have to order one (or two or...) of those lovely saws you make. It's like being a kid in a candy store: I just can't decide which one(s) yet.....
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Hi guys (pzgren/mwenz
Thank you both for your very informative posts. Talk about LONG winded!!!!! only kidding. I really enjoy reading your posts. I've learned so much since I've become a member of the Finewoodworking Forum. I'm a big fan of the magazine.
Now I've got to find the time to tinker with my "toys". Right now I'm in the middle of adjusting my jointer. Discovered that the fence isn't exactly square to the tables. I checked the fence to make sure it's flat. No problem there. And the knives appear to be in the correct position. Be kind of neat to own one of those Multi gauges. That way I could be 100% sure the knives are set up properly. I took a level to check to make sure the beds are level. Didn't notice any gaps. across the width or length of the beds. What I really need are 2 framing squares to test for level. The men who delivered and put together the jointer should have made sure the jointer was set up properly. I just assumed the fence was square to the tables. perhaps I should test the pulleys.. make sure they're in alignment.. Can't take anything for granted. I have yet to turn on the jointer. I have it plugged in but I have yet to turn it on and run a piece of board through it. Guess I better get to it.
Lately I've been doing more reading about handtools, fine tuning the table saw/band saw and jointer not to mention various woodworking techniques than actual woodworking... It's time to make some woodchips.. Übung macht den Meister! Mein Gott! I have turned into an "armchair" woodworker. Procrastination is a terrible thing. :)
I have to sit down now and write up a materials list for my next small project (night stand)
Wanda
Hi Mike,
Thanks for getting back to me about the dovetail saws. The only saws I've ever had experience with have been large cross cutting and rip saws. the kind used to cut rough lumber (2X4's ect) I couldn't cut a straight line with a saw if my life depended on it. I have a litte experience using a coping saw (coping baseboard and cove molding). I've never used a dovetail saw.. well that isn't exactly true.. I did use a Sandvik dovetail saw but with little success. Probably more my techique than the saw itself. I think it had 16teeth per inch. Not sure if it was a rip dovetail saw or a crosscut dovetail saw.
I am more comfortable cutting on the Pull rather than the push. I intend to use the saw for cutting poplar, oak, birch, maple and pine. How many teeth per inch should I be looking for? I think the rounded handle on a "gentleman's saw or duzuki would be more comfortable than an open handled saw(pistel grip). That's why the Japanese saws are very appealing. ( I have a small grip)
Wanda
Hi Wanda--you're welcome.
I cannot remember if I or another mentioned it in this thread or the dovetail saw thread, but for a pull saw for joinery, you cannot go wrong with the Odate saws from Tools for Working Wood.
Take care, Mike
"I think the rounded handle on a "gentleman's saw or duzuki would be more comfortable than an open handled saw(pistol grip). That's why the Japanese saws are very appealing. ( I have a small grip)"Don't let me dissuade you, but I'm fairly certain your logic is backwards. The japanese handles and gent's saw handles require a tight grip and therefore produce more hand fatigue. You'd probably have better luck with a western saw that you can push with your palm. I tore up my index finger playing basketball and lost some motion and much of my hand strength. My hands used to ache when I used a gent's saw for more than an hour. I found western saws easier to use.Altho I now prefer western saws, I have and use japanese saws. I think their chief advantage is that they don't require a bench or horses to use. So I bring these when I do any kind of site work. Otherwise, I think once you learn to saw, you can saw with anything. Good luck with your saws, whatever you choose.Adam
Adam
I totally with you here. I also have and use both Western and Japanese saws. My experience is that the long, straight and rounded grip of a Japanese saw is better suited to being pulled, while the Western pistol grip is better suited to being pushed.
I am sure that the style of sawing (pushing vs pulling) did not develop independently from the design of the handle. While I will use a gent dovetail saw (the same Crown I believe you have), this is reserved for delicate, shallow cuts since it will otherwise cause fatigue. Pulling a Japanese saw is fairly effortless (thin blade and a natural motion), and it is a relaxed motion as a result. My inclination is to want to also pull the gent saw, and pushing it requires a firmer grip since it wants to twist in my hand (even though I have my fore finger running supporting the side). Pushing a pistol grip is also natural since the pressure is placed on the palm.
Hey, I think that there is an article here for you - the evolution of Western and Eastern grip (no, we are not talking tennis raquets). :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
I guess I think the japanese saw handle is pretty primitive. I mean, it seems fine for some tiny joint and I think that's what most woodworkers do with their saws, regardless of their origin. And that's probably fine for Wanda and advantageous for site work as I said.For me, not having power tools, I have ripping and cross cutting of stock to do and the japanese saws seem ill suited to this. When pulling on an untapered stick, a tight grip is required. So fatigue is inevitable. I think I'm fairly safe in saying japanese saws are they way they are because steel was so very precious in Japan. If we look at continental Europe, ditto, steel was precious so they used frame saws. But England invented the rolling mill, and steel production was fairly advanced there. Likewise, English markets and industries were fairly huge (by comparison) which spurred further production. Unlike the Japanese, this allowed the English to take a second look at saw and saw handle design and, make changes which they did do sometime in the 17th century.I think folks love using japanese saws and that's really the bottom line. But I guess I just object to the notion that the japanese saws are somehow a more advanced design than western saws. Tage Frid fostered this sentiment regarding his beloved frame saws. I think in both cases, woodworkers didn't have really well sharpened western saws to compare with. Now with the likes of Mike Wenz, who's reproducing some of the best western saws ever made, we should be re-examining those comparisons.Adam
Personally Adam, I find Japanese style saws a complete pain in the arse to use. The handle is too long and whacks up against my elbow at the end of every pull-- this causes the saw (in my hands anyway) to drift off-line. The blade is too thin and if you set off in the direction or go off line a hair for whatever reason you can't correct it-- somehow the first sentence suggests I'm always going off line using these things, and that's what happens.
Now a western style saw suits me down to the ground. A pistol grip right up close with the business end. If you start drifting off line, a bit of judicious twisting and side cutting and all is as it should be.
Personal preference-- or personal prejudice? Definitely. I grew up on western style saws. I've been using them all my working life. Japanese saws to me are flimsy, pernickety, the handle's too long and, although I've tried a few, I wouldn't thank you for one as a gift.
On the other hand I know many workers that swear by them. They somehow can get them to work in a way that suits them. As far as I'm concerned, whatever works is fine-- but please just don't ask me to use Japanese saws to demonstrate sawing. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
although I've tried a few, I wouldn't thank you for one as a gift.
Well geez. And here I was thinking about making one for you as a gift that would fit the hand well and not be thinner than 18 thou....
Ok, teasing aside, we do well with that which works for us. Sometimes, a person begins using a particular type of saw and "it" clicks. Like Richard said, use what works.
As someone who grew up using western open and closed handles, I find it difficult to use Japanese saws over much distance well, and even gent's saws I find difficult without what I consider undo attention. Like Richard, I know people for whom neither of those imediments exist.
So I'll stick with the kind for which it does not take much mental energy to use. God only knows I need it for the other aspects of making furniture!
Take care, Mike
".....thinking about making one for you as a gift............ fit the hand ......not be thinner than 18 thou"
Ha, ha. Send it on over Mike when you get it done. I'll test drive it for you. Will you want it back? Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 9/24/2006 6:30 pm by SgianDubh
Well, ya just never know.
And nope, if I made one as a gift, a gift it would be! Need to find several tuits though. There's a list of things [the wife's list not withstanding...] that will use up a few tuits.
Take care, Mike
Hi,
I've been reading a lot lately about saws. LeeValley has a number of high quality saws to choose from. I'm not looking for a tenoning saw. I prefer to do tenons on the router table/table saw. What I need is a decent dovetail ripping saw.
So many to choose from... PAX vs Japenese Duzuki dovetail saws. I'm still undecided. I see the Japenese saws pictured in many of the woodworking mags. Some people say they are more controllable because they cut on the pullstroke as the cut keeps the blade in tention. But just as many people prefer using the western stlye saw. (pistol grip)
Shame I don't have a friend that owns hand saws.. that way I could try them out and compare. I don't have the funds right not to invest in 2 saws. So if you could only afford 1 dovetail saw.... which one would you choose. Japanese dovetail or Western d/tail ? The Pax saw pictured in the LeeValley catalog ($96.00) is tempting. After all they have been in the business of making hand saws for centuries.
I should check out tools for working wood to see how much the Odate saws cost. No doubt they are more expensive than the Pax dovetail saw. I know price is not always an indicator of quality but how much would you expect to pay for a good hand saw?
PS....Need your advice on bench chisels...I've decided I'm probably better off purchasing a set of bench chisels rather than buying them seperately. I thought I might buy a 4 pc set of Marple chisels. (1/4", 1/2, 3/4 and 1 inch) think that would cover most woodworking work I'd be doing. since that set doesn't come with a 3/8" chisel I'll order a 3/8" bench chisel from leeValley. Would you recommend the Marple chisels?
Wanda
Hi Wanda--the Odate at the link below is only $48 and is 7" in blade length:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS340.XX&Category_Code=TSJ
This one is 9" in blade length:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS320&Category_Code=TSJ
Both of those are superior to the LV Pax, but they are pull saws. So if that is an issue, there are other alternatives, though they cost more. Right now, Tools for Working Wood is selling the Adria for a small discount. Cheaper than buying one of mine, but they are vastly superior to the Pax.
As well, Clarance at Fine Tool Journal is selling the Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw a little less than Joel is selling the Adria [most likely in response], and usually includes free shipping:
http://www.finetoolj.com/LN/saws.html
Both are great saws and will last you your life and then some with care. But they are about $30 more than the Pax.
As for the chisels, the Blue Chip Marples have served many people well. If you get them, hone a slightly steeper angle on the blade and the edge retention will be better. They certainly will work just fine but require more sharpening than a more costly chisel, but sharpening isn't arduous. And it would allow perhaps a few more dollars in your saw budget. Not a bad thing in itself.
Take care, Mike
HI,
I am overwhelmed by the amount of information I've read during the past week. So the PAX saw by LV isn't up to snuff. So that leaves me with 2 other alternatives to choose from. The price you quoted is in US funds no doubt. Problem is I would have to pay customs and other hidden costs (brokerage fee) If I ordered from the States. That's why I usually like to order from LV.
How often do you have to replace the blades on the Japanese saw? Now I know that depends on how much ripping you're doing or the type of wood being sawn. But on average how long would you estimate? ( I certainly wouldn't want to be spending a lot of time sharpening the saw.. or having to pay to have it sharpened. Perhaps the LN or Adria would be worth the higher cost.
I don't have any preferences really when it comes to pull or push saws. Although in some of the articles I've read many novices prefered the Japanese saws which didn't require as much muscle. I am looking for a reasonably priced saw that will last for yrs and doesn't require a great deal of sharpening. Just out of curiosity how would you compare your saws to the LN and Adria?????
As far as chisels go........ Could you recommend a good bench chisel that retains its sharp edge.(the less sharpening the better.) I was planning on purchasing a 3/8" bench chisel from LV. Because the set of Marples doesn't come with a 3/8" chisel. I haven't ruled out the Marple chisels but if there is a better bench chisel I might consider saving up more money and purchasing the more expensive bench chisel, especially if it retains it edge longer. I don't have to buy them all at once.
Purchasing a good quality saw is my #1 priority. Can't make dovetails without a decent rip saw. well that's not exactly true because you can always use a bandsaw. I'd prefer to use hand tools to cut dovetails. Much quieter!
Wanda
Hi Wanda,
Well, I didn't say the Pax *from* LV won't work. There are just better saws. You are in Canada. Shipping there isn't a costly thing, though I do not know what my customers have needed to pay for duties and taxes.
But, both Adria and the LN are available in Canada direct. With the Adria being made there. I believe the LN are available via Rob Cosman as he is their Canadian distributor: http://www.robcosman.ca/
I don't know where one buys an Adria in Canada.
As for comparative issues, I'll respectfully leave that for others. We all build nice saws and you cannot go wrong with any of them.
For chisels, the Ashley Iles [AI] from Tools for Working Wood are reputedly very good chisels without costing two arms and a leg. Vintage chisels abound which are as good or better, but takes time and sometimes effort to get the sizes you want.
Available form LV are the Hirsch and they are also said to be decent chisels, for a little less than the AIs.
Take care, Mike
Hi Mike
Thanks you for sending me that link. I know where to find an Adria saw. :) They are made right here in Canada.. All the way out west. British Columbia. They sell for $139.00 Canadian. (approx. $125 US) Is that more expensive than the saws you make?
The Adria dovetail rip saw is specifically made to cut dovetails although it can be used to crosscut tenons as well. Claims to be very durable. Takes a lot to blunt the Adria.. so the website claims. 15tpi Says it cuts rapidly. You don't have to worry about the saw wandering. If what they claim is truthful then the Adria might be the saw for me.
" As for comparative issues, I'll respectfully leave that for others. We all build nice saws and you cannot go wrong with any of them".. (very diplomatic reply!) :)
I sent off an e-mail inquiring about the LN dovetail rip saw. Have to wait to hear back. I had no idea they were made in Canada in the province of Newbrunswich. Not sure how much they cost. Hopefully I'll hear back from their sales dept soon.
Now to check out those hirsch bench chisels.. I remember seeing hirsch mortise chisels in the Lv catalog but I don't remember seeing Hirsch bench chisels. I'll have to thumb through the catalog once again.
Wanda
Wanda
Wanda. the mortise chisles are built to a 90 degree side wall to best do a mortise, much heavier and a bit stronger so you can pound on them (also more $$) . Look on lee valley.com , open the left side woodworking index to chisles and gouges. Read it all and then look at the Hirsch firmer chisles for $109 or the Narex in the beveled listing for less .Ya gets what ya pays for but even the LV set isn't a bad set. I would do the Hirsch. Pat
Hi,
Yes, usually you get what you pay for.. for sure. You're suggesting I'd be better off in the long run to invest in a set of Hirsch firmer chisels rather than LV bench chisels. Obviously they are a step up from the LV bench chisels. As long as the chisel can straighten up the edges of mortises, sides of tenons, and chop out the waste between pins and tails..
ARe there only minor differences between the LV vs Hirsch Firmer chisels. I know they both come under the category of Bench chisel. What can the firmer chisel do better than the bench chisel? I guess that's what I'm really trying to get at.
Wanda
Wanda, IMHO the forged Hirsch set is a little longer, hardened to a higher Rockwell# (a little harder to hone but will keep an edge longer), are a little more robust. Have a very good fit and finish and have traditional hooped hornbeam handles that you would find much better in the hand than the plastic like types. In short a better tool that you would use for a looong time. A set like these forms chisel central in your tool crib. You will probably later pick up a few mortise and a few specialty types like a left and right skew for cleaning out corners or a fine paring chisel for delicate fits but the bench set you will reach for 90% of the time. All the best, Pat
Hi Wanda--the Lie-Nielsens are made in Maine, USA, but Rob Cosman is the LN Canadian representitive. That's the Canadian connection.
The Adria will serve you very well, as will the LN. All 3 of us are at or about the same price, so it's a wash on a cost basis.
My feeling is Eddie [Adria] makes his saws in Canada and so in that regard you would be supporting a Canadian company directly. Same with the LN via Rob Cosman in that he lives and works there.
With Rob Cosman, also check out his video selections on joinery--or consider a class from him. Very good teacher.
Take care, Mike
"The Adria will serve you very well, as will the LN. All 3 of us are at or about the same price, so it's a wash on a cost basis.My feeling is Eddie [Adria] makes his saws in Canada and so in that regard you would be supporting a Canadian company directly. Same with the LN via Rob Cosman in that he lives and works there"Mike's saws weren't rated in FWW recent dt saw review, but the Adria was. The reviewer found the Adria a bit aggressive as I recall- I think he liked that, but mentioned (or should have) that saws with low rakes are difficult to start- especially so for beginners.Mike Wenz custom files saws- so he could make you a saw that would be easy for you to learn on. You could probably talk him into resharpening that saw for a small fee into a killer as your skills progress.I think its great that you want to buy locally. But if I were you, I would buy a saw from someone who went out of their way to help you. Someone who understands exactly what you are looking for. LN or Adria reps could surf here and help people. But they don't.Adam
HI Mike,
I have checked out his site throughly. I previewed all his dvd's last night. Might order the dvd on covetails for Christmas.
Unfortunately, I don't live in Toronto. Otherwise I would consider taking a course from him. That would be a dream come true to be able to take a 5 day instructional course on how to cut dovetails. Shame travel costs so darn much. I'd end up dishing out almost $2000 dollars. (cost of airline ticket, accomodations and tuition)
Good thing there are so many experts here at the forum I can turn to for instruction.
The LN saw that Robcosman sells.. total price $158.00 that includes all taxes and shipping. ($12.00 less than the Adria saw) Have no idea why he charges $4.00 more for shipping than Eddie Adria who is all the way out west.
Now I have to make my final decision and decide which saw to purchase.
Thanks again for your help and expertise.
Wanda
Wanda200,
Just a couple of thoughts. It took me about 30 seconds to destroy my dozuki saw on some 1/4" hard board...half the teeth were removed. Before that event I had used it on maple, oak and poplar. I'm not sure it would stand up to some of the exotics from So. America. but it did work well while it lasted.
At any rate, that was my third or fourth attempt at a cheap dovetail saw..so I broke down and bought a good one. The good ones require they be held properly to function well. Properly holding the saw has you pushing from the shoulder muscle with the wrist locked in position...your pushing with the fat part of your palm. I believe, every saw you pick up(crosscut, panel), if properly designed, will require the same motion. The angle of the handle to blade changes with the saw purpose. So the bottom line is much of the learning on one saw is transferable to other saws...muscle memory.
I could probably pick up any saw and do well now...but it's a lot more fun picking up something I know and trust...worth the investment.
Hi BG,
So you've given up on the Japanese saws and have swithed to the western style saws hey?
I'm checking out the cost of the LN and Adria saws. Hopefully it won't cost me an arm and a leg. LOL
Wanda
Wanda200,
"So you've given up on the Japanese saws and have swithed to the western style saws hey?"Yes, and I picked up a used Disston crosscut saw, made in Toronto, at a tage sale for $5....
Dovetail angles need to be consistently transferred between tails and pins (generally done by direct transfer), rather than precisely measured against a standard. But, having a reasonably consistent angle looks better when seeing two sets together - say when two drawers are open at the same time.
Take a rule and make two marks 1" apart on the edge of a board. Run a line square to the edge through one of the marks and mark 6" and 8" from the edge. Connect these two marks to the second mark on the board edge. You now have reference angles for 1:6 &1:8 to set your bevel guage.
Mine are on the front edge of my Bench Hook.
Dont spend too much on all of this, and have fun
David.
Hi Patto,
Thanks for the tip on how to set the bevel angles.
Wanda
Wanda,
A few years ago, I bought the Hirsch chisel set from Lee Valley. They work great for me. I use them for everything, including dovetails. They come off the same line at the Two Cherries.There are some hand tool afficianados who look down upon chisels that have been mirror-polished by the manufacturer. Didn't bother me much. The first thing I did was flatten the backs. So much for the mirror finish. There is an interesting way about thinking about hand tools such as chisels and hand planes. It seems to me that the cheapest approach to them is to buy Lie Nielsen. They are expensive to begin with. They are top quality. And if you ever tire of them, you can sell them on EBay for almost as much as you paid for them. That is not true for other brands. So if you think about life-cycle costs, rather than initial outlay, LN is the only way to go. I wish I had thought of that earlier. Go chop some dovetails. Relax. Use cheap wood. Then cut some more. In a few tries, you will be amazed at what you can do. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I still have my machinist vernier calipers and use them extensively in doing wood working. I recently purchased a dial caliper in fractions and love it. It's much easier than converting decimals all the time.
Look into Incra rules - I use them all the time for Mortice and Tenon layouts.
I know I am setting myself up for hoots and haws, but the fat, black handled Sears chisels work really well for mortising. Tough and cheap, the steel can take alot of punishment. The blades are too thick for paring or dovetailing. Work more like firmer chisels that bench chisels. Get a 3/8, hone it a try it.
You cant have enough marking and measuring tools.I set up multiple tools to the measurements of the job, then there is no worry about returning to the same mark on the next board. I also use tools to adjust tools. Rather than use the scale on my mortise gauge I use the chisel to select width.
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