chisels: which is more important, able to take a razor sharp edge, or to hold a working edge for long.
I’ve been working with hand tools and lurking on woodworking forums for a few y ears now.
Recently I started buying old hand tools on ebay. From ebay I have bought a few lots of chisels and an old Stanley plane, the #45, third generation from 1888.
Anyway, on to kicking a hornets net here. How often do you sharpen your chisels?
In the past I have used the scary sharp method, and the Veritas MK II sharpening jig. I came to the conclusion that I was spending too much money on sand paper, and too much time setting up the jig. Now I have a set of 5 wet stones and do all my sharpening by hand, except when I have a large nick to take out of and edge and need to go through a fair amount of steel to do it, then I’ll break out and use the MK II.
Before i started buying on ebay I bout a set of Veritas bench chisels in O1 steel. Before doing that did a lot of research on what chisels people thought were best and why.
THe most common quality looked for in chisels was the ability to hold an edge for a long time. Not necesarily, how sharp they would get. This seemed strange since people online often obsess over the scary sharp method and how flat their granit or glass is.
So, what I’m wonding here, is two things. Which is more important to you, the abilty for a chisel to take a razor edge, or its ability to hold a working edge?
And, then how often do you sharpen your chisels? Every time you pick them up, or once every few months when they won’t cut jello anymore?
Replies
Both issues are important. Chisels can be very sensitive to the sharpening angle. With lower or steeper angles, like 25 degrees, many chisel edges will fold but that same chisel will act completely different at a 35 degree sharpening. If you were to buy the large set of Sorby chisels, that info would come with the chisels which are sold at a 25 degree bevel. It's up to the owner to hone them at a secondary angle of 30-35 degrees depending on whether working hard or soft woods. Those angles are great for chopping but many of us would prefer the lower angle for paring work. This same info is on the LN site regarding their two choices in tool steel.
I bought a 3 piece set of Sorby's about a year ago, wanting to up grade from the wide assortment of modern and antique chisels I had that wouldn't hold an edge at 25 degrees. I sharpened them to a razors edge, made a couple paring cuts and found the edge to be gone, just like the others. I wasn't happy and contacted the company, they straightened me out. At the 25 angle I would have to sharpen throughout the day, at 35, they lasted a month depending on the abuse I gave them. There are some vintage chisels that will hold a paring angle better than others but I'm not talking, they are rare and coveted. Sharp is sharp regardless of the bevel, it's not about that.
Different cutting angles for different blades
That is interesting about the Sorby's holding a great edge at 35 degrees, but terribly at 25 degrees. I guess that is why bench chisels are sold as "bench chisels" and not "pairing chisels."
There is more to it than the way the end user decides to sharpen and use them, such things as the type of tool steel used, and thickness of the blade play an important role too.
WOW ! Have You Ever Started With a Bang !
I've been working with hand tools and lurking on woodworking forums for a few y ears now.
Just started posting here myself. Great to hear from you and I hope you're here often. Evidently this used to be a great place. I hope it can be great again and I hope you're part of it. There are old threads here on sharpening that are tough to get to and nothing seems to excite folks as much as how, how often, and how fine to sharpen an edge.
Seems to me it depends on what you do and how you view sharpening. I'll offer what I do. I used to make violins & violas. Also made miniatures. Made real furniture only when Her Majesty insisted.
Anyway, on to kicking a hornets net here. How often do you sharpen your chisels?
Mortise Chisels: Have a set of good (not great) Japanese chisels. Sharpen them only when they begin to distort the wood or won't hold a reasonably true line.
Bench Chisels: Have a set of Narex (sp?) good (not great) chisels. Keep these pretty sharp and hone as I use them. Keep a stone at the bench and sharpen as necessary by hand. Usually done in less than 30 seconds.
Paring Chisels: Have one left and one right skewed flexible blade outstanding chisels that I seem to recall are Swiss. Bought them fifty years ago or so. The maker's mark has long been ground off. :>) Today those are very short and I'm looking for replacements. I keep those two chisels chillingly sharp. They visit the black Arkansas oil stone I keep on the bench the split second I feel meaningful resistance. I love to sharpen them and always by hand.
In the past I have used the scary sharp method, and the Veritas MK II sharpening jig. I came to the conclusion that I was spending too much money on sand paper, and too much time setting up the jig. Now I have a set of 5 wet stones and do all my sharpening by hand, except when I have a large nick to take out of and edge and need to go through a fair amount of steel to do it, then I'll break out and use the MK II.
Before i started buying on ebay I bout a set of Veritas bench chisels in O1 steel. Before doing that did a lot of research on what chisels people thought were best and why.
THe most common quality looked for in chisels was the ability to hold an edge for a long time. Not necesarily, how sharp they would get. This seemed strange since people online often obsess over the scary sharp method and how flat their granit or glass is.
So, what I'm wonding here, is two things. Which is more important to you, the abilty for a chisel to take a razor edge, or its ability to hold a working edge?
And, then how often do you sharpen your chisels? Every time you pick them up, or once every few months when they won't cut jello anymore?
Three things to know:
1) I prefer hollow ground on everything but mortise chisels and paring chisels.
2) I use a Tormek
3) I love to sharpen
Except for paring chisels and razor knives I do all sharpening on water stones. Unless an edge gets damaged I can keep edges going three months or so. Then I drag everything out and have a sharpening session. I listen to baseball or opera and stay in the zone. I enjoy it.
I contend folks should sharpen only to the extent that the edge gets the job done, and the process annoys them the least or pleases them the most. I'd say you've arrived at your system and it works. Anything else is esoteric.
That said, I love the the arguments (not the sniping). I've changed how I do stuff to try out others' ideas. And perhaps most importantly, from time-to-time my system won't work for me and I'll remember a trick somebody else uses. I'll use it for the moment if it will get me through a rough spot. How things work can change like magic and for no apparent reason. Perhaps the phase of the moon...... whatever the case, I willingly steal other folks ideas.
Interestingly I'm about to make a major change. My hands don't hold blades like they used to. :>(
Going to go buy the Mark II jig you've abandoned and I'm going to all diamond stones. I'm sick and tired of buckets of water. Will keep the black stone. It's still part of me. Bought one of those huge CMT (that right?) XX-fine diamond plates. It's going on the bench. Funny, it seems like just a smooth piece of steel. I'll know in a couple of years how the new system works.
Watch a major league baseball game. Every single batter holds the bat differently. Every single one is in the major leagues.
Thanks for a great reply!!! I got a lot out of that.
Be careful with the MK II when setting up your chisels on the fence/depth stop that comes with it. It is set at a perfect 90 degrees to the rollers, but many of my chisels have tapered blades wider at the tip than at the handle, Sometimes that taper is not visible to the eye, only 2mm wider at the cutting edge, but it has a noticeable effect when using the MK II . Running a tapered chisel edge tight against the MK II's 90 degree depth stop/guide (removed when sharpening) is enough to put a skewed edge on the tip of the chisel when you don't want one.
Other than that, the MK II is a great jig and I'm glad I have one.
That's not sharp. THIS is sharp.
In the '70s, I bought a set of Japanese chisels (unknown maker) and a full set of water stones from Japan Woodworker. Once each chisel had been politely introduced to each of the water stones (with Japanese temple music playing on the stereo), I found that they were so sharp, I didn't actually have to use them. I just shake them menacingly at the wood, and the waste runs off in fear, making a noise somewhere between a creaking floor board and fingernails on a blackboard. Wearing the appropriate Samurai clothing (Keikogi [Jacket] and Hakama [Pants] ) helps, of course, so the wood knows I'm really serious. With harder woods, a gutteral "Hah!" may be required. ;-)
With my American-made chisels, I sharpen as necessary, depending on use. A couple of swipes on the strop can often extend that time. Maximum sharpness and edge longevity are equally important to me.
There's a lot behind the original question that's not been addressed. With water hardening or oil hardening steels the properties depend on heat treating and tempering. The manufacturer or heat treater controls the trade-off between hard and brittle or soft and though. In old chisels this can be seen if one has much experience with sharpening and using a variety different makers' chisels. For example, a Whitherby chisel will be on the hard and brittle side while an old Buck Brothers bench chisel will be on the soft and tough side. The steel used is the same but the tempering is different. The uniformity in this is something I found pretty amazing over the years.
Yes, I've found a few chisels that weren't what I expected but those that didn't show evidence of being tampered with were pretty much unused and in almost new condition. It could be they were sold as seconds or that these were set to go back through the heat treating process when factories closed and all the old stock was sold off--I just don't know for sure. From what I've seen, all these mis-heat treated tools are from the period where early batch heat treating was being used. Before that, each tool was individually handled by the heat treater and are very uniform. If one reads Ashley Iles' Memories of a Sheffield Tool Maker, they'll learn that a single run of poorly heat treated tools can and did put companies out of business.
More alloyed steels like A-2 don't give the manufacturer much control over final properties. Basically, it is what it is. This is where another issue, grain size, comes into play. Grain in steel is really it's crystalline structure of the quenched steel. Like all crystals, these grow in size as long as they're in an environment that causes crystals to form. In heat treating water or oil hardening steels the finest grain comes from just bringing the steel to critical temperature, where the crystalline structure forms and quenching. A-2 and D-2 are alloyed so that they have carbide inclusions that form during heat treating. Inclusions are impurities in the steel and they're not structurally attached, like rocks in ice. Forming these carbide inclusions requires going above critical temperature and holding this for a relatively long soak. The inevitable result is that the steel surrounding the carbides is coarse grained and there's just no way around this. Carbides in these steels that end up on the cutting edge are very prone to just falling out which is why some makers suggest more obtuse bevel angles in an attempt to encapsulate those carbides. I think it also may be why some find a little success with back bevels like those that result from the "ruler trick."
If you go back and find the Fine Woodworking article where chisels were evaluated and the results were followed by fracture tests, you'll see where fine grain directly correlates to edge quality and viability.
That said, let's go to your questions. I like my chisels tempered more like what Whitherby did than like what Buck Brothers did. I sharpen when ever the edge isn't performing like I want and this may even be a few times during a given task. It's not a problem, sharp is never more than a minute or two away.
I have a number of old chisels readily available at my bench but most often use my old Buck Brothers over the harder ones like Whitherby or Swan. It's not because I'm saving the harder chisels for anything it's because of some things missed in the options given by the OP. I prefer tanged chisels over socketed because tanged chisels tend to be lighter and give better feed-back. I also like the thin cross section of the old Buck Brothers. The balance, control, comfort and feed-back of a chisel is just as important as edge holding as long as the steel is decent.
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