Has anyone heard of either of these brands, & if so, which would be the better quality?
Bracht
Mifer
I have an opportunity to get good deals on either, but cannot find any info on the web.
Any help is much appreciated.
Thanks
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Replies
vwalla,
you just missed a thread on chisel brands, and on the differences between German and Swedish steel. I believe the conclusion from those long and interesting threads was: If you buy any of the "serious" brands of chisels, it really doesn't make any difference. Ashley Iles, LV, LN, Two Cherries, Hirsch, and on and on and on.
Some folks don't like the fact that Hirsch and Two Cherries polish the chisels, because it rounds the edges. The only implication of that rounding is that it will take longer to flatten the backs. That is really not a big thing, but it is good to be aware of. My solution was to get the Hirsch from Lee Valley, which are polished, and then spend some time flattening the backs. I am fairly certain that Hirsch and Two Cherries differ only in their labels. I have a set of Hirsch bench chisels and a set of Two Cherry carving chisels, and am very happy with both.
I have never heard of the brands you are talking about. One should always worry about "deals". Given that you can get a nice set of serious chisels for about $100, you would have to get the off-brand for about $30 to make you think twice, and even then, the $70 savings would not make it a "deal". I'd go with "peace of mind", and go with a nice set of Hirsch for about $100.
An alternative would be to buy the expensive set from Lie Nielsen. If you don't like them, they'll take them back for about six months. Later than that, if you want to sell them, you can get virtually what you paid for them by selling them on EBay. Try doing that with Bracht or Mifer!
Enjoy,
Mel
PS - Remember that this advice is worth what you paid for it.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel-
Thanks for your input. You have helped me make a better decision.
Thanks!
vwalla,
Wow! Thank you very much. No one has ever said that to me before. Glad to help.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Just doing some looking on e-bay and came across a L-N 1/2" bronze shoulder plane and the latest bid is $227. Since I was in the market for a shoulder plane and just at the L-N web site and it has a new one for only $160. I guess I am in the wrong business. I should be selling stuff on e-bay and it seems like one could make a good living doing that. Looks like the seller is getting a lot more that he brought it for, or unless he paid toooo much for it also.
Greg
Greg,
Well said. There are three things I can't figure out:
1) women
2) how to predict the weather
3) why Lie Nielsen tools sell for so much on EBay. I am thinking of starting a business whereby I buy tools directly from Lie Nielsen, and then immediately turn around and sell them on EBay. The only plausible explanation for the high prices for LN tools on EBay is that the LN company is secretly buying up all LN tools offered on EBay just to convince people that their tools have a high resale value. Then they polish them up and sell them as new. :-) I heard this from a conspiricy theorist. I recommend that everyone buy as many LN tools as they can afford. In ten years, sell the tools at more than you paid. You'll have made more on your money than you would have by putting it in the bank, and you'll have had the sheer enjoyment of using top notch tools for a decade. Ya can't beat that with a stick.Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ah yes... the famed grassy knoll on the plane....
Mel,
As I said that I was in the market for a shoulder plane I got the medium one from Lee Valley and waiting for it to be delivered. While I was looking, there was a medium plane on e-bay and it sold for $145.00, used, and a new one is $159. I really can't see why someone would buy a used on for that price. Not too much of a savings and then you really don't know who you are dealing with.
Greg
Just the other day, I saw a LN butt mortise plane for sale on Ebay, supposedly new, starting $25 higher than LN sells them! Then add shipping on top of that. Amazing. A few weeks before this, a seller was offering several used LN planes, shoulder, rabbet, and 4 1/2 smoother. They were all well worn and had been used a good bit. I followed them for grins, and they all sold at or above the cost for a new model. There must be a cottage industry being born--reselling LN planes on Ebay! Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Maybe there's a group of wood workers out there that LN has "blacklisted" and won't sell to directly. The poor saps are left with only th used market - read eBay - to get these beauties. In their competition with one another they drive the prices well above direct purchase levels because direct purchase is not an option for them!
Either that or plain 'ol ignorance. Ocam's razor suggests ignorance I suppose.
It's really fascinating in a "shake your head" kind of way. It's got to be collectors buying them, because anyone who remotely knows woodworking knows LN and can buy directly from the manufacturer. I've bought one LN block plane from Fine Tool Journal because they offer a discount. I saved $15 on the LN low angle adjustable mouth block plane. Shipping was decent; about the only downside was it took about 2 weeks for the plane to arrive. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Metod,
I am jealous. You understand everything.
Mel
PS - this world of human behavior is an interesting one. IMHO, you are correct about the thrill of being the highest bidder on EBay. It is either that or sheer ignorance about how to look around for a better deal. A good example is in the area of books. I often see books go on EBay that are much much higher than you can buy them for on Amazon. Don't people know about Amazon books? You mentioned the role of collectors in the LN price wars. I can't imagine collecting LN tools without trying to become expert in the history and functioning of the company. (Same with Stanley planes, or anything else.) LN is an easy place to call. They are a lot of fun to talk to, and they are very knowledgeable and helpful. So I guess we are talking about a group of collectors who don't know how to find the best prices of the things that they collect, and that don't know enough to contact the company that manufactures the tools. My God! What is the world coming to. Pretty soon they will be putting flouride in the drinking water. After that, it is all downhill.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
<<...My God! What is the world coming to. Pretty soon they will be putting flouride in the drinking water. After that, it is all downhill.>>
Not only that, but they'll be holdin' elections where they let everyone vote and goin' on about democracy and the Rights of Man and all that. Next thing ya know, they'll be sayin' there ought ta be a TV and a telephone in every house and a car in every driveway. Things are just getting totally out of hand.....
;-)Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Mel, pzgren, GW52, nazard, Metod, et al,
You guys are all being logical. That's what the problem is. I tried reality once a number of years ago. Believe me, it isn't what it is cracked up to be.
Being logical is simply a waste of time. The world has clearly rejected it so I quit hanging on to it.
And with that, I am going to go glue some sawdust together.
Alan - planesaw
The reason some items sell for more on eBay than brand new, is very simple. It's a good way to convince the spouse that you had a good deal, "Got it used on eBay, must be worth a lot more brand new"
Let me see if I got this right. I should buy a tool from some chump that I don't know for $227.00 and who might not have a return policy, OR I can go to the man who makes it, has a great reputation, return policy and and is selling the same thing for less. I guess I must have watched toooooo much Star Trek growing up and some of Spock wore off on me because I do not see the logic in this.
Greg
You got that right, i agree with you, thats pretty dumb.
However i want to point out that i know someone who bought a LN plane on ebay. cheaper than the regular price, and there was something wrong with it, LN fixed it at no cost, even if he was not the original owner
However i want to point out that i know someone who bought a LN plane on ebay. cheaper than the regular price, and there was something wrong with it, LN fixed it at no cost, even if he was not the original owner
That happened to me! A while back I noted a LA #60 1/2 block plane - NOS from one retailer - came up on the Aussie eBay. I set my cut off point for bidding, which I made at the last minute ... and was actually the only bidder. So I won it for about 2/3 the new price. The only difference between mine and a new one was the blade, which was O1 rather than A2.
When it arrived home the adjuster was slightly bent, with the result that the blade could not be moved forward or back. I emailed LN with all the details (including the details of purchase) and Thomas LN wrote back offering (a) advice on a fix, and (b) a free part if this did not work. He then followed this up later to check all was well. Really crappy service, don't you think! :) Needless to say, all that was needed was a slight adjustment to the blade holder (straightened with finger pressure).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Now that's customer service and a person who stands behind their product! Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Derek,
I have purchased several tools from Lee Valley and had a chance to see their retail store in Ottawa, Canada while living in upstate New York. One of the few stores that had displays of what they sell and you could hold and feel the tools before you brought them. Their quality is one of the highest along with Lie- Nielsen. Last year I purchased a dovetail saw from L-N and it is wonderful dealing with a reputable companies who stands behind what they make and sell. Now if they could only fix my habit of not cutting on the lines that I mark...
Greg
good call on the habit of not cutting on the lines! we need a quick fix.
also greg
??? You are supposed to cut on the lines--specifically I was taught to split the knife lines down the middle. Otherwise you are mostly paring. (Easier said than done, of course.)
All,
Re: standing behind your products:
MyDad once bought a manure spreader from a farm equipment dealer. He refused to stand behind it.
Ray
Since this started out as a question about chisels, and then turned into a LN/LV discussion, the complete interview with Tom Lie-Nielsen might be of interest. It's available as an "audio slideshow" on this page:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ProjectsAndDesign/ProjectsAndDesignArticle.aspx?id=27723
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/AudioSlideshow/27723/index.asp?slideshow=27723
He mentions that early in the production of the chisels they had some which were "not correct", and they now have them heat treated outside. He also said 100% of the chisels are tested on wood to ensure quality.
E-bay really has altered the real world. It used to be that even at a real auction you could find some good deals on tools now there are all these fly by night resellers that show up and either run the bidding way up or pay way too much for stuff just in hopes of turning a profit on e-bay. I almost don't bother hitting the auctions any more just do to a couple of local sellers. These guys would bid on stuff for a couple of turns then when it got out of their profit margin they drop it causing everyone else to pay extra for their lack of knowledge. I have had some ugly words with one guy over this and he learned his lesson when I turned the tables on him and started running some of his bids up. I am more than willing to bid fairly against either a collector or another woodworker but these guys are really a pain.
The last school auction I attended had quite a bit of woodworking equipment in it, I was bidding on some clamps at one point.My usual habit is to top out at 1/3 of retail, when I hit that point, the guy next to me overbid me by $15. I pointed out to him that the clamps were available new for less than he just bid. He looked surprised and replied "But these are ANTIQUES."Takes all kinds, eh?
Leon
Bouboubomber
I love it. You got it. But, all you need to do is buy it from L-N, then tell your spouse you got it even cheaper than ebay!
Alan - planesaw
Metod,
Remote? From the business end, yes. Two levers at the front of the spreader, one for the conveyer chains in the bed, one for the egg-beaters that fling the $hit. Ahh the good old days.
Ray
Hi Ray,Flinging that stuff AND getting paid to do it.Sounds like an ideal job.Cheers,eddie
(who grew up in rural Australia and has seen them at work.)
Well, Eddie,
The job is best if you have a head cold while doing it. Frankly there are more fun things to do in my world than shoveling the stuff onto the spreader, which is how I did it as a kid. Nowadays they have "Bobcats", little front end loaders, to do the lifting. An improvement no doubt.
Every time I think I have it bad earning a living as a woodworker, I think about farming. Things immediately look brighter.
Ray
Hi Ray,Yes, here farming's a 16 hour day, 7 days per week, to earn $15000 per year for the last three years or so. There's no government assistance programmes/subsidies/supplemental income in any form here as in Europe or the US (or just about all other countries, for that matter, our farmers have to stand on their own feet.)I've still got pleasant(?) memories of cleaning out the chicken run in the middle of summer as a 9 year old, when it was 40C/110F on a hot tin roof above. That was the chore that fell to the troublesome ones.Cheers,eddie(who's amazed at how this thread has gone from talking about chisels to a literally talking about shovelling chicken 5H!t.)
Edited 11/18/2006 4:52 pm by eddiefromAustralia
when that stuff gets hard you need a chisel to remove it!
If the proper spelling of miter is mitre, why shouldn't chisel be chisle?
Malcolm
Malcolm,
The other spelling is from a "down under" point of view. :-)>
Alan - planesaw
Edited 11/21/2006 10:25 pm ET by Planesaw
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