Hi all
In the process of cleaning up some older Marples chisles, and was interested to hear of any secret or not so secret brews some of you may have tried in the past. Not sure what the handles are turned from….suspect Beech.
Thanks
John Walters
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Replies
There is no secret 'brew'. I use many THIN applications ofboiled linseed oil rubbed in over several weeks. The secret are the prayers that must be said while applying the linseed oil.
SawdustSteve.... with tongue planted FIRMLY in cheek
John,
I soak my handles in a coffee can of boiled linseed oil overnight. I use a scraper to scrape the oil the next day. An oil soaked handle stays clean- glue won't stick to it, and I like the way it feels. This is a trick from the 18th c. The story I heard was that they weighed the tool before and after the soak and charged you for the oil by the ounce.
Adam
"...This is a trick from the 18th c."...
I'd sure like to see some documentation of this. I'm not a fan of boiled linseed oil on anything one might want to last a few years. Experience tells me a boiled linseed oil finish makes wonderful medium to grow a dark staining fungus. There are some surviving wooden planes usually from the last half of the 19th Century which were soaked in boiled linseed oil. They're easy to spot, they'll appear very dark and have a heavy encrustation on the end grain.
Often you'll find old wooden planes showing signs of being stored in wet and less than ideal conditions. However, I haven't seen evidence of these storage problems in linseed oil soaked planes. I believe this is because linseed oil soaked planes stored in wet locations succumbed to fungal growth and rotted.
I'd use a good varnish, oil varnish or shellac finish on wooden tools and handles.
Regarding 18th c oil soaks:I don't recall where that tidbit came from. I don't think it came from some great primary source. That might have been from OLDTOOLS or Dunbar or someplace like that. Don may know.I am aware of the fungus story and I'm not sure where that came from either. Maybe the same place! I have a large set of firmers, mortisers, and gouges which I made new Seatonesque handles for 5 or 6 years ago. If they have some fungus eating them from the inside out, I wouldn't know it. I don't personally prefer film finishes on tools. I don't like the way it feels. Not on chisels, planes, or saw handles. I like the tooth of bare and oiled wood. I'm just recalling that I had to cut something that I had soaked. It may have been a mortiser handle. As I recall, my soak didn't penetrate more than 3/8" or so. That's all I know. One other thing- can't believe I almost forgot! I soaked my veneer hammer (used it this afternoon) and I'm glad I did. I didn't soak my cutting gauge and I wish I had. The soaked tools seem much more glue resistant. Adam
The tendency of linseed oil to promote mildew has been documented by the Forest Product Laboratory which is undoubtedly the most authoritative source for information on such topics. They had promoted, in the 50's I believe, a linseed oil based wood preservative but have moved away from that as the tendency to mildew was noted.
Edited 5/28/2007 12:37 am ET by SteveSchoene
mildew, fungus, whatever.
I live just outside Philly and have tools that are stored essentially outside year round (no climate control) and tools stored in a climate controlled area. None have developed any fungus or molds. I don't doubt that its possible- maybe its an issue in London, or Seattle- I don't know. Its just not been my experience.
Immediately after soaking tools, and maybe for some time thereafter, I've seen oil come to the surface when striking it. (we're talking chisels here). I'm wondering of the oil helps preserve the handle mechanically? It may offer shock absorption properties???? These are riven beech handles struck with maple mallets. Have you had similar experiences? (that's for Steve or anyone else)
I think there may be more to the oil soaking than meets the eye.
Adam
I don't have any documentation from 18th century, but below is an excerpt page from Woodworking for Beginner by Wheeler, 1906. It states that soaking in raw leenseed oil is recommended for wooden tools.
The full text is available on my website at http://www.wkfinetools.com/z_tDownL/art/1906-WWforBeginners/1906-WWforBeginners.asp. The file is large – 34 MB by this is a whole book.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I use this technique a lot on old tools, saw handles, etc. However, I use a mixture of 50/50 BLO and mineral spirit. Most of the old tools go into this bath before I do any cleaning or restoration. <!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
I noticed that wood becomes heavier, the sound, if knocking on it, is deeper, and in some cases small cracks shrink substantially. But also the wood becomes darker, sometimes much darker then desired. I have tools that I used this procedure on from 3-4 years back and do not see fungus. It is important to know however that I am in <!----><!----><!---->New Mexico<!----><!----> and it is very dry here. Also, after a bath for about a week, I keep the tool on the <!----><!---->New Mexico<!----><!---->'s sun for as long as needed. The tool "sweats" the mixture sometimes for 2 weeks or longer before I can conclude that it is dry.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
On the other hand, some of the storage cabinets I built and treated with BLO developed fungus in the drawers. I am convinced that this is because I didn’t wipe the oil well and didn’t wait long enough for it to dry before I begun stuffing drawers with tools.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
My observations are that the procedure is helpful for tools protection, but like many things in tools restoration the proper pace is very important.<!----><!---->
Wiktor
larry,
Perhaps this story (linseed oil in a coffee can) had its origins in Mt Vernon (- or was it the homestead of one of the Puritan elders ?), where Wallace Nutting has a tour guide in the '30's saying that the giant trees on the lawn came over from England in "little tomato cans". Then there is the apocryphal Harley Davidson story wherein Bill Harley made the carbureter for his first cycle from a tomato can...
No doubt linseed oil has been put on many a handle. My dad liked it for hoe handles on the farm. But linseed oil has gotten a pretty bad reputation of late from museum personnel who have observed its harmful effects on the furniture in their collections. It never really dries, gets darker and darker, collects dirt, and apparently is a tasty treat for fungi. Oh, and you can't really wash it off after it sets up.
As far as a period source, Rob't Mussey's Dover reprint of the little 1812 finishing guide has a reference to an oil varnish made by boiling linseed oil and rosin together for half an hour on the stove (don't try this at home), as a good product for cheapness, for window sash.
Me, I like shellac for handles. Easy to apply, (esp when the handle is still in the lathe), a coat or two is all you need, attractive, fast, feels good in the hand. After it's dry, that is.
Ray
Ray,At times people ask for linseed oil soaked finishes from us. We don't do it but I've had some relatively knowledgeable people say they heard it was an 18th Century practice. I've been looking for some reliable source for that. I haven't found one. I've looked at a lot of 18th Century tools and looked for any indication they were soaked in linseed oil. I do see some linseed oil soaked planes from the last half of the 19th Century and some that are from the early 20th Century. I have a few 19th Century planes that were treated this way. I've just never seen an 18th Century plane with any sign it was soaked in linseed oil. It's possible it was done in the 18th Century and the planes didn't survive. If the practice was documented anywhere from the 18th Century, I'd like to know about it.I do have personal experience with linseed oil that proved to me I don't need to mess with it again. It's a long story and I'm not up for typing it out tonight. I did post about it years ago on the "oldtools" mailing list but I couldn't find it in the archives. Perhaps it's what Adam remembers but I think it was a few years before Adam was participating there.
No doubt linseed oil has been put on many a handle. .... It never really dries, gets darker and darker..... I like shellac for handles. Easy to apply, (esp when the handle is still in the lathe), a coat or two is all you need, attractive, fast, feels good in the hand. After it's dry, that is.
Ray, that is a good summary of my own thoughts.
I quite like BLO and wax for the feel it imparts to wood. I only give the handle two coats of BLO, and this is over about 24 hours. They are thinish coats and appear to dry. I then rub in wax with 0000 steel wool, and finally with a cloth. The result is silky smooth, an absolute delight in the hand.
Just do not try this with (Stanley) Rosewood as it will darken the wood and it will begin to resemble Ebony. In other words, BLO does tend to darken wood, which may not be the effect one wishes.
Now shellac is nearly a no-brainer. Easy to apply, dries quickly, and also a treat when waxed. The downside is that it is not very durable.
I have mentioned this before, but no harm in plugging a good Aussie product that really produces the goods - have you tried Shellawax? It is available from Lee Valley. This is a mix of shellac and wax that set when burnished (the heat from friction sets it off). It has the depth of a shellac finish, with the durability/waterproofness of a varnish, and the softness of wax. Rub it with 0000 to take of the gloss. Easiest to apply on a lathe. Alternately, I burnish with a stitched cloth wheel on a drill press.
Regards from Perth
Derek
hi derek,
I agree that shellac is a no brainer. Maybe that is why it has such appeal to me and frenchy? ;-)))) har-de-har
I'd disagree that shellac is not durable. I have a shellac finish on several hand tools (rosewood handled try square, dovetail square, copingsaw handle, multiple chisel handles) that get regular use in my shop, and have needed no upkeep or repair whatsoever, for up to 30 yrs. My father in law, a painter by trade, had a beautiful shellac finish on his livingroom floor that was 20 some odd yrs old, when I started dating his daughter in the 60's...durable enuf for me. Mebbe it's that Aussie shellywax that isn't up to par? Don't you have to brush it left- to right, instead of right to left, down there in the antipodes????
:-)
Ray
Hi John,
I don't have any refinishing advice, just an observation. After seeing your picture, I would say the wood was not beech. Actually it looks like cherry to me.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
The little black flecks rule out cherry. Beech is a good guess.
Jeff
Red birch?
Could be. It's hard to say without seeing it in person, at least for me. It's not cherry, though.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
You could be right, however, I have a small sample of beech and cherry here in front of me, and I still think it looks more like the cherry sample. So, that's my story and I am stick'n to it! Actually, it would be kind of fun to find out for sure, and should you turn out to be correct, I would humbly admit defeat and hang my head in shame. It really is very difficult to tell from a photo, but its a fun challenge!
I think that on most commercially produced chisels, beech would be a more logical choice for the application, however, someone could have made replacement handles at some point. Just a thought. Having fun!
Bob, Tupper lake, NY
Cherry can have black pitch pockets - especially the Cherry that grows in the southernmost portion of its range.
From a veneer supplier:
"Cherry veneer is primarily used in cabinets, however, Adams Face Veneer supplies cherry faces for residential furniture, architectual uses and office furniture.
Cherry is found in the eastern USA primarily in the Mid-Atlantic regions. Cherry is easy to work with, laminates very well and finishes very well. Cherry is rich in color being reddish-brown. It also has characteristics of gum pockets and streaks of pitch throughout the veneer."
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 5/28/2007 6:45 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Hi Bob
The handles are without doubt the originals as many still had the remnants of the original Maples transfer. I don't see a lot of Cherry here in New Zealand so I don't have a good comparison. the flecking is certainly predominant through the entire set.
regards
John
sal,
Maybe it's my monitor, but that looks more like (1) hickory, or (2) ash to me, than either cherry, beech, or birch. I know, it's crazy to think of anyone making a handle from hickory (or ash), but...
Ray
Bob, for sure that is not any Cherry, but I don't know how it may appear on your screen. On my screen that looks like Ash to me, and I have several Marples chisels with Ash handles.
John- I suggest you either re-finish that handle like it was , with a clear varnish or just rub in some shellac, rub it down with steel wool and then wax it.
When you can use some hard smooth dense woods , preferably oily ones, then they soon acquire a nice finish if you use them enough. I rubbed in some shellac on those you see there-all are oily except for the pale one, whcih is African Wild Gardenia.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Thanks for that, nice collection of tools. I think your right on the Ash call, it would apear that marples used Ash frequently on handles.
i've had some problems with the cutting edge chipping on the paring chisles, I hollow ground them at 20 degrees and then honed a micro bevel on them, any ideas?
Thanks
John
John, 20 degrees hollow grind leaves the edge quite delicate-you would have to be careful with very hard woods. What woods are you working when you get chipped edges? Is it actually chipped or is the edge flaking back?Philip Marcou
Phillip
Mostly Rimu, paring dovetails. The cutting edge is closer to 25 degrees with the microbevel, but i guess theres not much "meat" to support the edge with the hollow grind. The failures appear as a very small nick just enough to catch if you drag it across your finger nail. They are nice and sharp for a short while though!
Sunny day in Hawkes bay how's the Coromandal?
Cheers
John
Sunny-ish....I wonder by how much longer winter is to be delayed.
Maybe you should try the more standard angle of grinding at 25 and honing at 30.Is it swamp Kauri? Could be that there is grit in it-wouldn't think that Kauri is nearly hard enough to cause damage to edges. Ofcourse the un-thinkable is that the steel is not well, but all the Marples chisels I have had have been quite alright.Philip Marcou
No Rimu, will give the steeper angle ago.
thanks for the comments.
John
Phillip,
one of the finishes I put on a hammer handle and an axc haft that worked well was a softened wax. All I did was 'disolve' some raw beeswax in turpentine and apply as a paste. it dried off satisfactorily and with a bit of sweat and dirt has remained a serviceable handle for 6or7 years so far.
Dave
Does anyone know what Lie-Nielsen uses on their chisel handles for a finish?
The last hand tool I made was an osage orange spokeshave. I tried something new and finished it by sanding-in a few coats of poly gel.
The finish protects the wood, isn't slippery, has a nice feel during use, and it neither looks nor feels like a plasticy coating - probably because most of the finish is in the wood, instead of sitting in a thick layer on the surface.
Hasn't been exposed to glue, so I can't speak to that issue. But it got favorable reviews from both peers and students when I used it at school.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
How about the sweat from your hands inevitably mixed with a little of the oil you use on your oilstones.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 5/28/2007 10:27 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Formerly,
A very refined southern lady once rebuked me, when I wiped my brow after carrying a piece of furniture up the stairs in her home and said, "That popped the sweat out on me". " Young Man," she said severely, " Horses sweat. Men perspire." "And how about a lady, like yourself? I don't suppose you 'perspire', do you, ma'am?" She allowed herself a slight smile. "Ladies glow."
If your handle was finished with the residue from your Japanese waterstones, followed by shellac applied with a linen pad with just a drop of oil, wouldn't it be a "Slurry, with a French on top"?
Cheers,
Ray
As, I believe you are being coy, now-you omitted the third ingredient of that "recipe".To what do we owe this sudden turn?Philip Marcou
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