The recent thread on choosing a bench was very useful to me as I am in need of one to complement a foray into the world of hand tools. I still can’t decide whether to buy or build, though. Workbench-related books are on their way from Amazon (sorry Taunton, insufficient discounts in your store). Also I have been at the catalogues. However, I know no one locally with a good bench, whom I can interrogate.
The prospect of building a bench has its attractions but I worry that it is too basic a task (I have a list of more complex stuff to build) and that I will be “wasting” the 16/4 and 12/4 wood I already have when it should be going on finer things.
I wondered if there’s a compromise – buy a decent quality bench then amend it with(say) better vices, dogs, add-ons and so forth? Maybe even alter its height, once I understand what height it should be for me?
The link below is to a UK tool seller that has a 250 llbs solid beech bench for just under $800 (£400). My question is, would it be feasible (and cost effective) to buy and amend such a bench rather than buy all the timber & bits to make one from scratch?
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=21594&name=Bench&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=4
Lataxe
Replies
The link is to a bench that looks very much like the Scandinavian one that Woodcraft carries, even to the vises. They also sell the top separately.
My dear Lataxe, (spoken with a mid-19th century English-type accent)
Of course, it's feasible to buy and modify the commercial bench....
However, given the way that your slab pine table turned out (the one you were building for your friend some months ago), why on earth would you NOT want to build your work bench??? Building it would get it exactly right for you and the way you work, and would be a daily reminder (assuming you're in your shop every day) of your abilities and skill. From there, you could only further improve..... Plus, there will be other wood appropriate for projects designed to keep you in the lady wife's good graces.... A high-quality work bench could -- in my mind's eye -- NEVER be considered a "waste" of wood.....
Another thing that may sway you toward building your bench is that it will give you an opportunity to build something of sufficient complexity to give your hand tool list(s) something of a realistic work-out, to help you determine which hand tools you REALLY need.
At any rate, the decision is, of course, completely yours, but I would think that a "adventurer" such as yourself (metaphorically speaking, that is) would jump at the opportunity to build a bench from which he would create all manner of fine furniture, wooden decoration, & c.
That Colonial trouble-making clown across the pond.... ;-)
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!
James
Now then James, lad!
There is that other concern I neglected to mention, which is that a bench building project will become a year-long obsession, requiring $500 vices, a lignum vitae deck and inlay around the edges after an C18th design requiring ivory, pearl and solid gold. In reality, I would rather the bench remained a tool and not become a piece of furniture.
Still, you have a number of telling points and no doubt Gene is right - when the various workbench books drop through the letterbox, I will be intrigued then obsessed and eventually lost to the seductive designs of various bench-masters of past and present. The Greene & Greene writing desk will be delayed another month or three.
These delays in furniture making, whilst I indulge in plane-buying, bench-building and other acts hygenic to my "new style" woodworking, will irk the ladywife, who is concerned that her retired husband, stalwart lover and talented provider of household accoutrements is buggering about shopping when there is still no proper desk (or a nice chair to go with it).
Well, now I can blame you. :-)
Lataxe, guilty as charged.
"In reality, I would rather the bench remained a tool and not become a piece of furniture."
Well said . . . up to a point. It just doesn't seem to me that 'a workbench' and 'a piece of furniture' are necessarily mutually exclusive concepts. I spend hours and hours in my workshop. I appreciate fine woodworking--duh, that's why I'm out there in the first place--and I like to live with furniture around me that I have done my very best on, regardless of whether I'm reading a novel in my living room or jointing boards in my shop.
It seems to me that, as long as you refuse to sacrifice bench utility for the sake of 'design', you can have both.
Bob
"As long as you refuse to sacrifice bench utility for the sake of 'design', you can have both"
I think that about sums it up. Forget about 'either/or' and work on both. The above statement can be true for most of what we make, except items that are 100% purely decoration. Hopefully all of the furniture we are making has not sacrificed function for form.
Matt
Well, I await the books on building benches; but the "benches" page also lies open in the Axminster catalogue. One oughn't to hurry the matter of a bench I suppose.
My shed has been bench-free since I began WW some 9 or 10 years ago, two workmates and a plywood table top having sufficed with my then "power tools-only" approach.
Green woodworking, begun last September, required me to make a shaving horse (mare), a steam box and a couple of bending jigs. In truth, I found the making of this unavoidable "bench" and other wooden "tools" rather tedious, although they are fine looking things (too fine; one gets carried away).
Power tools either come with an integral bench (eg table or bandsaw); or you can use a rather floppy workmate-thing because the power tool doesn't transfer force to the bench to the degree that planing or hand sawing does. Having been planing and chiseling a lot in the last month, I realise just how essential an immovable bench is. The TS tabletop is stable but not exactly an ideal bench and already I have grazes and bruises.
***
On another note, Mgumaer makes a good comment: "Hopefully all of the furniture we are making has not sacrificed function for form".
One reason I get only FWW magazine, despite being a Brit, is that even the "best" UK WW magazines are full of furniture that is mostly some kind of Scandi-sculpture, with functionality definitely 2nd place to a "modern look". The ladywife, when glancing through such a magazine (should I weaken and buy one from the newsagent) snorts, "Looks likes 1960s stuff to me". As ever, she gets straight to the nitty-gritty.
At least FWW keeps the best of traditional form-follows function furniture as its meat and potatoes.
Lataxe, benchless in Glagate, at the TA with salves.
Did the ladywife find my stuff a little too 1960's Lataxe?
I believe you'll find that serious examination of current British furniture designers and makers will leave you with a different impression. The range of work coming from respected craftspeople in this country is no more or less functional than the range of work you'll find coming out of America, Canada, Australia, Germany, etc.. I wonder if you took yourself down to Cheltenham to the Celebration of Craftsmanship last week, or perhaps on the same trip did you go to Westonbirt?
If you're not careful when using a broad brush you tend sweep a lot of things away that could have been worth a closer examination.
Slavishly shutting your eyes to what's going on around you, and only looking to the US for a lead through the Fine Woodworking publication limits you to the derivative and copyist stuff that FW publishes most often.
There is also the factor that American woodworkers use many woodworking practices that are generally not followed by professional UK based woodworkers. I'm not saying they are wrong practices, but they are different. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
I did rather hope my little addendum might flush you out. :-)
Of course, your view is the experienced, balanced and correct one. As you know, a number of your past designs from "Furniture and Cabinet Making" reside in my little book of future projects. I don't dismiss the skill (design-wise as well as making-wise) of every UK or European maker.
But....every time I buy a copy of F&C, I find myself having the same sense of frustration and disappointment that led me to stop subscribing after 5 years or so. Perhaps its just taste, or their need to support the current professionals in the UK? Whatever the reason, I find that:
* There is lots of clean-lined, palewood stuff with a very self-conscious feel of "modern". This "modern", though, seems more like post-modern - ie it references any design motif the maker felt like adopting and often looks contrived or sculptural - an exercise in self-indulgence. It's more "look at me" than "use me", even if it manages to achieve the latter as well. It's art dominating craft.
* There is never any meaningful analysis, these days, about the informing design considerations, possibly because they are vague post-modern ones and not so much to do with the functional attributes. Rather, the author often warbles in a jokey, unintelligible way about how he glued this bit to that, with no real answer to "why"? This style of article seems to have waxed in the last few years of the magazine, as I remember when articles such as yours were mostly about the informing design process (and I am not just flattering you here).
* The so-called tool tests are a joke. Nothing is measured but rather there is some bloke saying vague and uncrtical things about a £10,000 machine (with an obligatory, "that guard might be beefier" token noise); or there is a copy of an advertiser's puff portrayed as a "review" - again, entirely uncritical.
I do go to the odd furniture show, although I missed Cheltenham this year. When I do go I am elated and depressed, all at the same time, by the fabulous skills portrayed (and my painfully exposed lack of them in contrast). I have even come close to buying a piece to inspire and "copy", until the ludicrous prices are mentioned. (It's for rich folk only, is it not)?
And despite the evident skill and fair proportion of beautiful furniture, there is still that feeling of "sculpture" about. A recurring thought is, how could you put that in a room without it dominating everything else? And, "Would I dare use it"?
<edit> A further thought - my furniture, like that of FWW, is derivative. This does indicate a lack of artistic sensibilities and I confess to being clod-like on that front. But "derivative" is another way of saying "traditional".
Perhaps it is my conservative nature and exasperation with the wider manifestations of Rationalism that causes my lip to curl at the sculptures. Or maybe those traditions survive for a reason, whilst whole swathes of once modern "design" becomes merely the weird stuff we did a couple of decades ago for no reason anyone can remember now. The word "fashion" comes to mind, as we watch tele programmes about the 60s or the 80s and have a laugh at how daft we were once.
Lataxe, a Philistine
PS One definition of Rationalism (capital R) - the belief that nothing in the past is of value and that everything must be invented anew, using a hastily cobbled together idealogy of found concepts completely foreign to the subject matter of one's New Scheme. Modern politics and business are perhaps Rationalism's most virulent current form; but it is everywhere. <edit>
Edited 9/1/2006 5:59 am ET by Lataxe
Lataxe, I'm always reluctant to criticise woodworking magazines and their content. Their priorities are driven by a different drum beat than the one that drives the woodworkers that read them.
Look at all the criticism that Fine Woodworking gets from contributors to this forum. Yet the fact is that each magazine tries its darnedest to meet the needs of the perceived readership-- and crucially, they attempt to make a profit.
I suspect you're being overly critical of contemporary furniture makers in the UK. You may not like the direction many of them seem to be going, but some of the work I suspect will last and become classic or collectable.
Who'd have thought that Charles Rennie MacIntosh stuff would become a point of reference. What about Gimson and the Barnsleys'. Jings, even that old lag Chippendale must have seemed outrageous to some observers-- all that complicated carving and that fancy new wood mahogany.
Anyway, none of this has anything to do with a simple utilitarian object like a workbench, which, incidentally, I'd never waste my time building an example of--- unless I'd got nothing better to do. Hell's bells, I'm a furniture maker, not a workbench maker. A bench is just a tool to me and, in a similar vein, I'd never build myself a table saw or a handplane. It's much cheaper to buy one ready made and ready to go. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
David Charlesworth's furniture making techniques, page 8!
I prefer the simple one without the record vice on the end which is nothing more than a built in pair of sash cramps at a fixed width.
I trust you have the book?
This has served well for many years, the ability to clamp everywhere except above the leg frames and vice, is exceptionally useful. This is only possible on account of the removable tool well.
The recessed wedged tennons are entirely decorative and can be omitted. Some madness inspired by arts and crafts, very time consuming to do.
Sloped or vertical back legs, both have their problems.
If you find a good commercial bench, please let me know.
best wishes,
David Charlesworth
David,
I would have one or two of your books but my book-buying pattern has been disrupted by:
(a) handtool lust (in come books by Graham Blackburn and other toolie authors)
(b) an unfortunate occurence of shelf-fullitus, meaning I must fit yet another bookcase into the construction schedule or risk the ladywife's ire at piles of books accumulating on her neat tables and unadorned carpets.
Also, I peruse and extract useful D Charlesworth wisdom from my old copies of F&C, along with that other stuff by some bloke called Jones.
One day soon... :-)
Lataxe
Richard,
You write good sense, as ever. Perhaps I should qualify the crtiticism of the furniture makers by saying that I admire very much their skill and their inclination to be a bit adventursome. I suppose what I find irksome is an over-prevalence of that post-modernist, Rationalist meme in a lot of current work being produced at the cutting edge.
But you point out that it's hard to know what of current strange styles and fashions in furniture will become a classic form or strong tradition. This is true to a point but would you accept that virtually all classic forms contain some basic design "truths" - in furniture, an amalgam of proportion with utility?
Of course, I may be kidding myself here, especially when (as you mention) there are some pretty weird styles now considered classic. For instance, Charles Rennie M chairs are (or so I read) designed poorly in terms of both construction techniques and user comfort.
As to the bench, I swing wildly between buy and build, depending on which meme has leapt of the page or screen into my wetware last. Doh!
Lataxe, who never got over reading Edmund Burke and Michael Oakeshott.
By meme I presume you're referring to the imitation factor, or the ability for the same thing to pop up in other places, Lataxe?
In the end I think it's hard to be completely innovative in furniture design. Yes, there is usually some rationale in furniture between proportion, functionality--- and don't forget that important element, construction.
Of course, construction has changed a lot over the last several millenia. We are in what is predominantly the machine age-- machine made wood products along with actual wood, and mostly machine construction. There's still a need for hand tools. They're essential in many jobs still. But the emphasis has changed from handwork to machine work. I'm not saying one is better than the other.
Proportion is interesting. How is that furniture items made three hundred years ago are still fit for purpose? Dining chairs made in 1750 are still about the right height yet the average human is much taller. Did only the rich and well fed have dining chairs? Possibly.
Anyway, this thread is getting too far away from the original intent so I'm going to keep out of it from now on.
I must though make a slight correction to an earlier statement. I have made workbenches and/or layout or assembly benches in the past. I also knock out sawhorses as needed-- quick, cheap, sturdy and purely utilitarian. Nothing fancy. If that's all I'm going to make I may as well buy one. I use an Ulmia bench. It's excellent for what I do.
I won't invest my time in building an all singing, all dancing thing with cupboards, fancy woods and so forth. I can't stand cupboards under a bench anyway. I like a simple slab with a tool well at the back, a Record type front vise, and a tail vise for the row of dogs and an open framework under. That's it. No more and no less.
I fully understand the rite of passage thing that many woodworkers like to go through, particularly amateurs, but that sort of thing leaves me stone cold, and has done for the last 25 or so years. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
This is almost as good as pins-first or tails-first; buy a bench or build a bench.
Over the last thirty-five odd yrs, I've worked at half a dozen different benches, built from mid 19th century onward, and looked at dozens more. I guess most of them were shop made, that is, made in the shop where they were first used. One was adapted from a Grand Rapids era buffet. If you aren't keen on cupboards beneath your bench, this wouln't have been your favorite. Perhaps one that I used was commercially made. I've used Record, Emmert, and home-made vises with wooden screws.
The bench I work at now is one that I built back in 1973 or 74. It is made of found materials (oak) that I salvaged from a warehouse that had been razed and was scheduled to be pushed into a pile and buried. The biggest expense was for a wooden screw for the tail vise that cost me $5 at an antique shop. My time I counted as nothing as I wasn't self employed at the time, and so setting up shop in my basement was on the order of being a hobby- if I hadn't been building the bench I'd have likely been out fishing with my buddy Peanut and sucking down a sixpack of Stroh's. Exploring what Moxon had to say about bench design seemed like fun.
Point is, I think traditionally, most shops have made their own benches, and I believe this mindset has continued to today. Also, the many different benches I've used have all performed adequately, some better than others, but none were so bad that I felt the need to build my own. It sort of happened that building a bench was the right thing to do at the time with the stuff I had. Might be 'twas a rite of passage of sorts- a traditional bench, with leg vise and tail vise (left handed, did I mention that I'm left handed) was a scarce commodity then, and a store bought scandinavian type bench was beyond my reach financially anyway.
Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention my "craft show bench". Knock down design, 4' long and 32" wide. Light enough to move around, heavy enough to work small stuff as a demo at the shows.
Now lets talk about shop stools... buy or build?
Ray
Ah, good question Ray. Table saws, planers, thicknessers, drills, routers, etc.. Buy.
Hand planes, saws, chisels, rules, squares and the like. I buy those too.
I confess to having made a panel gauge, a marking gauge, a mallet and an oilstone box or two. I can't think off hand of anything else I've made apart from tool cabinets knocked up out of ply mostly, and one made out of pine. That's about it. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
I said stools, lad, not tools. Little hard to read thru the bottom of a pint of Guinness, is it? My first shop stool had three legs. I cut it up because it kept wanting to fall over sideways (with me on it). Next one I built had four legs. It rocks, but hasn't bucked me off yet.
But your reply points up a difference betw you and me. In the tool line, I've made inlay cutters, mallets, scrapers, planes, scribes, knives, turning tools. I've a drawer full of gizmos and knick-knacks that I couldn't buy, or just thought it'd be fun to have a go at making. Recently made a folding knife from a bit of deer antler and a piece of a broken file. Wanted to see if I could forge a blade...
Cheers,
Ray
Oh Ray. I am a pillock! I should have put down at least one of the beer glasses, ha, ha.
Now I think of it, other tools I've made. Knives for marking, and a bird beak type knife out of an old hacksaw blade for transferring the profile of the tails during dovetailing, shooting boards, and probably some other stuff.
It'll come back to me when the brain is less addled. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Would you believe the first thing I made in shop as a lad in HS almost sixty years ago was a on legged stool. I used it in the barn to milk the cows. It never wobbled from one leg to the other and helped many a cow. One of the best things I ever built.
tinkerer,
I saw a picture of a one legged milking stool once. The user had it strapped to his bottom, so it followed him from cow to cow, while he used his hands to carry the buckets.
My dad took the opposite approach. His milking stool had 6 or 8 legs, slender (3/8") iron, welded to an old iron tractor seat. I guess the idea was the skinny legs would penetrate the straw and sh!t, to the solid floor. With all those legs, SOME of them would hit at the same time!
Reminds me of the poem the farmers wife submitted to carnation milk for their advertising jingle contest:
Carnation milk, the best in the land!
It comes in a little red and white can.
No tits to pull, no sh!t to pitch;
Just punch two holes in the son of a b!tch!
Regards,
Ray
Don't forget the tenoning jig Richard, or was that really purchased one Saturday morning while hitting drive-way sales with the mother-in-law? Then again, jigs would open up a whole new can of worms and fond memories. ha.. ha.... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
SARGE..
Sir!
<<There is that other concern I neglected to mention, which is that a bench building project will become a year-long obsession, requiring $500 vices, a lignum vitae deck and inlay around the edges after an C18th design requiring ivory, pearl and solid gold. >>
I fail to see the problem here, although -- short of disassembling an old piano -- I do rather expect that Ivory is becoming a bit difficult to lay hands on these days... ;-)
<<These delays in furniture making, whilst I indulge in plane-buying, bench-building and other acts hygenic to my "new style" woodworking, will irk the ladywife, who is concerned that her retired husband, stalwart lover and talented provider of household accoutrements is buggering about shopping when there is still no proper desk (or a nice chair to go with it).>>
Quite so, but one must not forget that the "buggering about shopping " is for the requisite materials and tools (including, of course, said work bench) to use in building the desk (and chair) in question; perhaps the lady wife should be gently reminded of such facts?
Might I also put forth the proposition that perhaps the lady wife should have some say in the final form of your work bench: perhaps the wood(s) chosen, the decoration, or something similar? That way she also has an interest in its eventual form and outcome (not to mention that it will be very useful for creating all those furnishings that she has commissioned you to create).....
BEGIN EDIT:
<<...a lignum vitae deck... >>
That gives new meaning to the term "solid workbench." Are ye plannin' ta to sell it to the Royal Navy, so they can land aircraft on this thing? ;-)
END EDIT
<<Well, now I can blame you. :-) >>
Please feel free to do so; in fact, I volunteer to be blamed. After all, geographical distance does have a few minor advantages in reducing the immediate effects of any of your lady wife's ire that may, at some time in the future, be directed toward me.... ;-)
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!
James
Edited 8/31/2006 10:56 am by pzgren
Edited 8/31/2006 10:57 am by pzgren
Edited 8/31/2006 2:46 pm by pzgren
No disrespect to the fine folks at Taunton, but I'm intrigued by this bench, based on the classic Roubo design (which will no doubt be referenced in one or more of the books you have on order).
http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/backissue.asp?issuedate=9/1/2005
Lat, How in blazes did you make that beautiful table without a workbench? Or are you simply wanting to improve yours?
There is another thread on this subject under "Workshop" here at Knots. You may find some of those comments food for thought. (Of course, I contributed.)
I built my current bench from scraps. Large scraps. I used steel vises which saved a lot of time. I made a storage cabinet beneath which is a totally separate part. That way I finished a bench & built the cabinet later. The most difficult part is building the top. You can get around that with a commercial maple slab which are generally available -- at least on this side of the pond.
Cadiddlehopper
It won't be long before pictures of beautiful homemade benches will start to show up. The problem is that most of them won't have much in the way of functionality. A bench is a tool, basically a big clamp. I want to be able to bang, drill, screw, gouge, clamp, spill, bleed and generally abuse my bench. One bench is never enough. A good workbench is hardly a non-complex piece of work. I don't get paid for making a bench and any time I spent making one, could be spent making money on something else. To match some of the prices for a ready built bench, I'd have to build one in a day. I'd also have to find lumber, the hardware, vices, etc. at a big discount.
There is a difference between a woodworking bench and a horizontal surface to work on. The woodworking bench is mandatory if you are hand planing rough stock. Weight isn't as important as stability. The bolts on the stretchers of manufactured benches are very nice since joinery will succumb to shrinkage and racking. A quick tightening of the bolts will return the stability. Something I would include on a homemade bench. A bought bench will give you something to work off while building your own, if you choose to do so. It can be sold or used for other purposes later. I'd hate to spend many hours building a bench, only to find that it didn't work to hold, what I needed it to hold. With inexpensive benches, the compromise is often the vices and screws. I'd rather spend a bit more and get a bench with a good traditional L tail vice. The typical end vices with screws, single or double, just don't have the strength and versatility for what I do, but that's something personal.
There are a lot of benches to look at on this site.
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/bench.html
Once you've read the Londis and Schleining books then you'll be itching to build your own. I did. It took ages and cost a lot more then $800. But it got an ash base, maple top, a Vertias twin screen end vice, an Axminster patternmaker's side vice, dog hole just where I want them, a central tool tray that lifts out and I love it to bits. And visitors admire it in a ferkinell! way.
Tim,
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Yes, the books have arrived and I downloaded all the bench stuff from this FWW site too (getting’ me $14.95 worth). It is tempting to build an 18 foot Shaker bench, with pink cupboards, a motorised boardjack and a tame dancing girl that will pop out of a hatch in the top during the lull between sawing and planing.
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It’s also easy to resist that temptation and consider something like the (Ian) Kirby bench – straightforward and utilitarian with no gizmos that may or may not be of use some time or other.
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The original question was - is it feasible to buy a good basic bench then add bits as you find you need them? (Like a pattern-maker’s vice). I still don’t know.
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Richard,
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Apologies for the distraction re design issues. Those sort of matters seem unanswerable at bottom and we must all follow our own taste. Happily my taste is mundane so there will always be plenty similarly mundane folk who find the pieces inoffensive or even “nice”. Rebellion is too tiring and also I have neither cause nor even a flag to wave.
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As to your sentiments concerning benches and other necessary stuff to make the pieces, I feel rather as you: making furniture is what I want to do rather than tools, jigs or other necessary stuff that shops sell. The trouble is, a bench could easily become “shed furniture”, as could that stool; this is when the Pink Shaker whispers, “Make me”.
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But if I do make the bench, it will be a simple, heavy thing with space underneath for the mare and the steambox, which are cluttering up the shed.
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Ray,
<!----><!---->
Perhaps your way is the path – I like to use found-stuff so maybe a homemade, utilitarian bench will be constructed of various otherwise redundant lumps of wood in my store. This would mean a multi-hued thing, with even legs of different shades (ie timbers) as well as all the other parts. It might even have a stripy top!
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I draw the line at rummaging about car boots and other junk sales for a vice, though. If this bench is a homemade effort, this will be the excuse to go mad with the catalogues on the vice front. I will have saved money, you see, so by the usual “logic” that means I can spend twice as much on summick else.
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But really, I wish a bench would just appear in the shed and then I could make something, instead of reorganising the place and reading all these shed books.
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Lataxe, board (geddit?) with benches now.
Lataxe,
All this design and build, or shop and buy is a bit of a sticky hedgehog, init? What to do, what to do? And the consequences are earth shattering. ;-) I bet whatever the outcome of your quest for a bench, the results will be satisfactory, or at least usable.
And there are those who'd say that rummaging in car boots and hanging about junk sales is a vice in itself, so that problem is solved. Would that my vices stayed on the bench where they belong; they tend to follow me around, nasty little....
Adam C will tell you, there's no need for a vice anyhow. Just a couple holdfasts, a benchhook, and a pinchdog or two. Roubo (or was it Diderot?) don't need no steenking vice!
Regards,
Ray
Lataxe,
I must say it's kinda hard to imagine you building all those fine pieces without having a workbench to rely on. For most of us the inclusion of a workbench into the workspace changes everything, it means we're not dependant on power tools for the final fit and finish. Personally, I took great solace from "Bob's Workbench" treatise which said..." you'll build five workbenches over a life time". To me this meant relax, eventually you'll get it right...and recycle what you can to keep cost down as you move forward.
I think you already understand you can look at the workbench as three seperate pieces: top, base, vises. The base get modified the least unless you go from a 5' to 8-9' workbench. The vises are the most expensive...with a couple of wood clamps and a vise you can hold stock in just about any position. A Veritas is nice..but I find a small workbench on top of the big bench with a couple of screws that they use for lamination presses works even better...cutting dovetails in panels, etc. So your left with the most expensive element, the top...which is not that expensive any how.
So the message is ..just build it from the perspective of four more to go....
Ray,
Mmmmmm - sticky hedgehog.
After reading the many bench books now littering the pink leather sofa, as well as Bob's PDF and various other bench-related PDFs from this Taunton site, I decided to build a bench. Actually, it was the discovery of a number of hefty pieces in the woodstore that did it. These are the kind of pieces that are, each by themselves, insufficient to make a decent sized piece of furniture.
So, what design of bench? At present I favour a Frenchy. I like that French hook and thick top. I like also the Ian Kirky pop-up bench dogs. Simple stuff - to start
The "hefty pieces" are mostly Sapele with some iroko - sufficient for 16/4 X 16/4 legs with 8/4 thick stretchers and aprons. However, I don't have enough bits for a 3 inch (or thicker) top. On Friday I am going to my friend, the Large Built-In Furniture Maker. I will make pitiful noises until he sells me (very cheap) a number of his "offcuts" which often include 3" thick maple, iroko and other planks of 6 foot or more.
If I do not rescue them, they end up heating his huge stone workshop - a Terrible Sin Against Nature and all woodworkers everywhere, especially Scroogish ones like moi!
I take BG's point concerning the vices and the evolution of a bench via 5 iterations. There will be simple and cheap work holders until experience tells me what kind of vice(s) to get.
Meanwhile, I would be pleased if you would regale us all with further stories and ditties, especially ones with lots of rude words. You remind me of my Uncle Cornelius, who taught me many such pithy rhymes, from the age when I could first speak. It amused him to hear his innocent nephew recite the Suspect Verse or Prose in front of shockable folk, such as his sister and her friends.
Lataxe, bench-distracted.
Lataxe,
Thorry if you don't rethpect my vertheth. Didn't have to call them pithy though.
Knowing ditties with naughty words is an unfortunate byproduct of being a scout leader. It kept the boys entertained.
I have reservations about a bench with all those furrin woods in it. How will it understand what you are saying when you curse those tearouts?
Rather than 5 iterations, I preferred to get it right the first time; as the wife tells all and sundry, I never discard anything.
Regards,
Ray
Ray,
"Right First Time"! This a phrase beloved by consultants, managers, politicians and other creatures who have never had to deal with Reality. I am suprised to hear you quote it.
I like, "Rightish after a lot of buggerin' about". This allows me to be (a) imperfect (my natural state) and (b) allows buggerin' about (what we are all here for, even you, an Artist of The First Water). Also, I can change my mind (several times).
Lataxe, Not Much Good
Lataxe old knot,
All depends on your standards. I work to very high standards, then lower them according to need, after the job is done. Works every time. Ha ha
Edit: But seriously, what are the requirements for a useful bench? Sized to accomodate your space if it's limited. Heavy enough top to stand up under chopping, flat enough to support stock being planed. A vice, (yes Adam), on the front to hold stock being worked, another on the end. A dog on the end vice, and another dog that will fit in holes down the length, to hold stock being surfaced. Drawer/s and or shelves only if you are so inclined. Why will you need to replace it? If you have to build a smallish bench due to space constraints, and later move to bigger digs; or vice versa-- ooh who let that pun in here?
Ray
Edited 9/7/2006 5:30 pm ET by joinerswork
I built the Klausz bench several years ago, it was the most rewarding project ever. I am planning on building a roubo type bench this winter for my son, and just because its fun.
Ray's right I am going to tell you you don't need no stinking vises!
I think its okay to buy a bench. But it won't do what you need- It'll hold you back with your hand tools and it won't be easy to modify. If you really want to work with hand tools you need a bench designed for that work. That instantly lets out everything manufacturerd for sale for the last 150 years.
So for example- the bench you linked to has no provisions for edge work. How would you support an 8' table top, that's 3' wide?
Next, how would you work with a plow plane? Where would the stop have to be (3' from the end?) to keep its fence from hitting the face vise.
How do you cross cut with that tail vise in the way? You wil soon find the tail vise is useless for planing. It simply doesn't do what is needed. Its a nice strong vise for other stuff, but pinching boards doesn't work and isn't helpful.
The problem with "The Workbench Book" and others like it is that no one in those books (except Rob Tarule) builds stuff entirely with hand tools. So they don't know their benches don't work for stuff. And because they don't know, they can't very well explain to you what you won't be able to do. They sure are pretty benches though.
So you can pick my brain because I actually do the work by hand- no excuses. But I have my opinions and you may not share them and I'm only one man. Or you can just turn back the hands of time to a time when pros, all pros, built good stuff with hand tools. Surprise, surprise there were two dominant bench designs (okay three). The English bench (ala Nicholson) which is a good, cheap bench designed for 2 or 3 by construction lumber, the French bench (ala Felebien/Moxon) which is no more than a table with a massively thick top and the German bench which is basically like the French bench but it incorporates a sliding tail vise (which I think is overrated and certainly unnecessary). That bench is illustrated in Roubo.
If you could buy one of these 3 benches, I would say do it. But you can't. So I think you have to build IF you are serious about building stuff with hand tools. (BTW, don't feel bad if you're NOT serious and you just want to noodle around. In that case, any bench will work and don't let anybody tell you any different. This is all supposed to be fun. When I want to build stuff and my tools let me down, that's when my fun stops and I don't wish that on anyone- thus my post. Its a warning, really. Modern benches generally don't work with hand tools.)
Adam
PS, Chris Schwarz, who wrote that article Gene mentioned (make sure you read it) has added some info about that bench in his blog (you should be able to google it). Chris did a pretty fine job researching and understanding that bench before he built it. The editor at the time insisted that he "dumb down" some of the joinery. I would never have done that or recommended it be done. That said, he did a fantastic job at simplifying the joinery. Don't miss that article! Its a bench that's guaranteed to work and Chris made it simple to build. I'd like to see him do the same for English bench.
The first time I saw Tage Frid 'pinch' the pin board in a tail vice for a set of dovetails at exactly the perfect angle for sawing I instantly knew what one was for. Or at least one of the things.
They work great for holding certain workpieces for carving, too. Hell, I could not possibly list the different ways I've used mine for tasks other than board planing (a relatively small part of building a project with hand tools by the way and totally overemphasized). My son could handle virtually all the planing tasks for any given furniture project by the time he was 12. It's a teentsie part of the process. There's not a lot of skill in it. It was a task literally relegated to children by all of your woodworking heroes of yesteryear. And rightfully so. It's necessary, but easy. If you spent more than a few weeks figuring it out, you took too long.
You make the same mistake most amateurs make - you think all this type of vice is for is helping hold a board for face planing. It has vastly more uses than that for the hand tool woodworker.
Boss,
You opine: "you think all this type of vice is for is helping hold a board for face planing. It has vastly more uses than that for the hand tool woodworker".
I could be persuaded. But why be obscure? List the uses, s'il vous plais; and less of that boasting - it is a faux pas par excellence.
Lataxe, a willing student albeit a Francophile (bench-wise).
You can saw dovetails, tenons, hold cabriole legs for carving, mould edges on short(er) workpieces (every workpiece isn't 8 feet long), hold a myriad of other workpieces for carving and moulding, saw pin sockets on table legs for apron to leg joinery(again, the leg can be held at the optimum angle for sawing like the pin board for a set of half-blind dovetails can).
Do you by any chance ever carve in the round? Ever carve flame or pineapple finials or add carved detail to an already-turned leg?
The good folks over at Popular Woodworking, a fairly likable bunch, are currently smitten with Roubo (I guess they just got around to reading this work) and the plank-on-legs worbench concept (Kirby, et al.) that's fine but a proclamation that the evolution of the bench stopped in 18th century France is the height of something (absurdity or your other adjective of choice). You can do fine work on a Roubo bench. You'll become an expert user of the iron holdfast and that's not necessarily a problem, but other woodworking traditions have found ways to hold work that works surprisingly well too. And you can still use an iron holdfast if you wish.
If you build a Roubo bench, do not compromise on the leg to top joinery as was done in the PW version. In the long run, I don't think that construction will hold up. Look at Plate Whatever in Roubo and notice how that joinery was accomplished and again, don't compromise. That joint is crucial but not easily accomplished by the average woodworker and the 'old' way is objectively the best way.
It's easy, and I suppose natural, to advance a theory about workbench construction when it meshes with one's technical ability to pull the project off. If you have the technical skills to build any style bench you wish (and I believe you probably do) then the world becomes a much bigger place than France.
I'm not particulary fond of rough crosscuts at workbench height as Adam apparently is. I'm not sure what "joinery" crosscuts he's doing at the end of a bench that require the stock to hang off the end. And end vice or a shoulder vice certainly do not get in the way of the simple benchhook, which is where I usually do my "joinery crosscuts."
A set of shortish saw horses will work fine for rough crosscuts. Why lift a large plank for a rough crosscut all the way to bench height? I move a set of short horses over to the wood pile for these. And certainly if you have a woodshed, it pays to knock the pieces down before carting them in to the workshop. I also don't like the sound of waste pieces falling from bench height, and I don't always feel like doing the reach-over-and-hold manoeuver either, or finishing a crosscut with my off-hand.
You need a bench to hold things, not function as a sawhorse on steroids.
Edited 9/8/2006 2:19 pm ET by BossCrunk
Adam,
Ah were waitin' for yer post....
But are you reading mine? I am making a bench, not buying, partly for the reasons you list. It will be A Hefter made of odd bits of Large Spare Timber from the depths of my woodstore. Perhaps I will post a photo or two of the parts, should anyone really be interested. (I suspect not). You are right, I think, that a Real Bench cannot be bought today. Then again, a real bench would cost real money - in the thousands perhaps.
No one but thingybob builds entirely with handtools, you say. Me neither. I use all the tools I can get (and hope to become proficient with) including, now, those queer old fashioned planes, chisels and saws. I have been spending too much on getting good quality ones of late, for reasons I forget (something to do with The Boss's admonition to be proficient at every WW skill).
In which case, perhaps a vice or two may be useful. How can a vice get in the way, especially if I have that Francais bench hook? I do not want to ban this or that bench-aid in the name of "purity" (purity of what)?
Still, you have a point about the basics. I will start with a Roubo-like bench - basic and heavy; but I do expect to add vices, dog holes and other aids as my handtool experience informs me of what might be useful. I just don't know what's "right" at the moment (lacking experience) so I will start "primitive".
I can't ignore those other experienced woodworkers out there who list the advantages of their favourite bench design. Is Klaus a WW idiot or Tage a WW ingenue? I think not.
I will read the Chris Scwartz article, as you recommend, though.
Just explain the "purity" thing to me, if you have the inclination. It sounds like a religion (having a religion is against my religion, incidentally). :-)
Lataxe, a reluctant disciple who is probably a noodle (.....?)
Edited 9/7/2006 7:01 pm ET by Lataxe
"In which case, perhaps a vice or two may be useful. How can a vice get in the way, especially if I have that Francais bench hook? I do not want to ban this or that bench-aid in the name of "purity" (purity of what)?"If you are working thin stock or working a deep feature (groove, or molding) the plane's fence may dip below the bottom surface of the board. In this case you've only got a few choices. Lift the piece up or place it flush with the edge of the bench. The latter is generally easier, but the face vise or crochet can get in the way of the plane's fence. If you can't have a perfectly flat front on your bench (removing a face vise's jaw would work fine) make sure your vise jaw/crochet is under flush with the top.The right end is prime real estate for sawing joints. The end vise there makes this difficult. Again, its better to have a flat end. The activities Boss mentioned can be accomplished elsewhere. (I agree by the way, not with his example, but that the physics of the end vise makes it a very good strong vise. I think I'd be happier with it were it on the left end.)Starting primitive is a great idea. Depending on what you are doing- make it long for cabinetry. 8-9' Doesn't need to be real wide. Also make it a tad lower than you think it should be. I'll pass on continuing the purism discussion. Email me offline if you are interested.Good luck with the bench. Designing a good'un is tricky business, I think.Adam
The right end is prime real estate for sawing joints. The end vise there makes this difficult.
It absolutely does not get in the way. And as I mentioned it is the perfect location for sawing out dovetails (and tenons for that matter). Other than that, everything is flush with the top and with the end. So, please tell us, exactly what part of it is 'in the way.'
There is nothing about an end vice, shoulder vice, etc. that gets in the way of doing a simple crosscut at the end of the bench - a claim you've made in some of the articles you've written. Nothing, nada. Pop a couple of bench dogs in that end of the bench, push the stock to be crosscut against said dogs, hang waste over end of bench and saw. But there are better places to crosscut lumber than at one's main bench.
I would dearly have loved to see you make these claims with Tage Frid in the room. Jesus, it would have been a site to see. He would have come unglued.
Edited 9/8/2006 9:37 am ET by BossCrunk
Adam,
You argue against a front vise by saying it gets in the way of a plane's fence. I'd ask how often that occurs, versus how often you need to hold a piece of stock endwise or edgewise to chop, pare, saw, or plane? In my shop, I'm using the front vise dozens of times every day; it rarely gets in the way. In your example, I'd clamp a temporary stop on the bench to hold the stock back from it.
Likewise your argument against an endvise. My solution to the rare occasions where I need to work off the "off end" of the bench, is a pair of sawhorses, or the assembly table in front of the bench. Mostly, I either open the vise a few inches to get the clearance needed, or use a bench hook and work off that. The end vise gets used a lot more for holding stock to faceplane, than it gets in the way.
Granted, it does make a difference what you mostly work on. If you are working mostly on architectural elements, paneling and long moldings, you will want a different setup. But there is a reason the cabinetmaker's bench had front and end vises by the time furniture styles (and hand woodworking technology) had reached their golden age. If you are working relatively small pieces of wood on all sides, you will want a way to easily move and grip them. It's called a vise.
Regards,
Ray
Ray,You raise some excellent points. We talked about the distinction between styles of woodworking. Here we go again: Since I do ALL of my work by hand, I actually end up doing the things I'm discussing quite a bit. Think about how you do simple half lap joints for backer boards, rabbets in the back of a carcass, the grooves (or rabbets) in drawer sides, simple moldings etc etc etc etc. So to answer your question- When I'm busy doing case work, the face vise is off my bench more than on. For edge work (which I similarly do quite a lot of) I prefer to use a peg (in the twin screw vise hole) and two supporting holdfasts.Because I cut all my joinery by hand and because my joinery and molding planes generally don't handle knots or reversing grain well, I prefer to rough plane first- find the bad spots, then cross cut. So the stock is on the bench (and my shop is small) so I'll just go ahead and cross cut there. Many times, this is a final cut and final surface. For moldings (which I find deceptively time consuming) I prefer to stick in one piece, then cross cut it into the pieces I need. As I've written for a 3' wide carcass, I need roughly 8 linear feet of molding (thus the long bench- but there are other reasons).In general, I think its good to have direct support- directly behind your effort or as close as possible. When working with a bench hook, I prefer to saw if not on the hook, then within one or two inches of it. Otherwise you have to support the far end. When the workpiece is short- this can be tricky. So the work must be cantilevered beyond the tail vise, beyond its screw, so you don't saw the screw accidentally. I don't use the miter saw horizontal sawing technique- but even then you still risk hitting the screw.Realize that I have a tail vise on my home bench now. So I'm familiar with its advantages, continusously experiencing what I don't like about it, and finding that I can still complete projects in a timely manner. At the museum I have a French bench with a twin screw face vise (and no end vise). Its a perfectly suitable bench, lacking nothing. Every job Boss mentioned can be handled in other ways - but to be fair- that's always the case. Its just a matter of what is more advantageous for your work.In the coming year, I'd like to take one project and show how I built it with hand tools in exhaustive detail in my column. Not to give awaythe ending, but I think folks who are interested in working with hand tools but who haven't worked 100% by hand will be surpirsed to learn what tools I find I spend the most time with, which tools efffect the project the most etc. I really don't use basic surfacing planes for example all that much- even tho I do all my surfacing by hand. Its the other things, other tools that take the time. I think you can kinda see that in the points of view in this thread.Regards,Adam
Lataxe,
I built a bench several months ago. It was my second bench, and is essentially a version of the Fortune/Nelson design from the Landis book. If you have any specific questions about the bench or the building process, I'd be happy to provide detailed responses. Here are some pics of the finished product (it's not work of art or "furniture" as some have quipped above), but it's not a slap together either):
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=7063.4
I've been very happy using it. It has feet that adjust with an Allen wrench from above for leveling on my concrete shop floor. I have it in the middle of the room (center of the shop) so I can work on it from all sides. FWIW, this eliminates Adam's problem with a tail vise handle interfering with cross cutting (which is only an issue if you puch teh bench against a wall). I work with both power and hand tools, and have yet to do any project where one or both of these vises was not a well appreciated contributor to the process.
FWIW height adjustments are not much to worry about (on any bench in my experience) as making risers to fit under the feet is easy (even part of the Fortune/Nelson plan in the book) if it is too low and building a platform to stand on at the front of the bench is also easy if it is too high.
Samson,
Thanks for your offer of help. which I will immediately take up with a few questions. To give some context, my bench will be around 6 - 7 ft long and 24" wide. It will be located against a wall with only one long side and one end (right hand end) accessible to me. I am 5 ft 11".
1) Do you find a single-jawed tail vice sufficient? I was thinking that one of those dual screw Veritas tail vices, with 2 - 4 rows of parallel dog holes along the bench top, might be more versatile....? But perhaps all those holes is overkill?
2) Is there an advantage in having square dog holes over round ones? I can't find a definitive argument for either, in any of the reading I've done so far.
3) Would an apron on the long edge of the bench, that is deeper than the thickness of the bench top, be an aid or a hinderence, do you think? Without a vice, I was thinking that an apron would allow quick-clamps to be used to clamp a workpiece vertically for sawing DTs and such. I would use a holdfast through the benchtop, or (eventually, maybe) a tailvice+dogs, to hold work flat on the bench.
4) Do you alter the bench height for every operation or is there basically a "high" and a "low" position you tend to favour? (I was thinking of making a separate assembly bench, for instance). A height-adjustment mechanism would over-complicate things for me. At the moment, I plan to make the workbench 34" high.....?
Thanks in anticipation.
Lataxe
PS Gorgeous bench!
I'd like to offer my answers to your questions as wellas samsons:1) The fortune tail vise is vastly superior to just about all other vises structurally. Its jaw is very stiff and can easily produce a wood crushing pressure. I have one.2) I think too much is made of the dog hole debate. There are minor pluses and minuses, more involving manufacturing than use. I have both kinds of holes in my bench. I prefer a planing stop that doesn't rotate.3) I think the apron is a disadvantage. It lends some stiffness, but a modest apron doesn't provide enough for a thin top and offers little to a thick one. The problem with them is that they interfere with clamping to the top. I think that's the disadvantage of the Nicholson bench.4) Different operations benefit from different heights, but I don't change my bench. I do sometimes sit on a saw horse tho. The old rule of thumb was that a bench should be palm height. My bench is now about 1" under that and I like it that way. It can be hard on one's back, however.looking forward to other answers
Adam
Lataxe, let me start with a disclaimer. I do not claim to be an expert. Rather, I consider myself an intermediate woodworker. What I do have, I guess is recent first hand experience with this particular issue: thinking through and building a bench.
Second, the answer to most questions about bench characteristic isues is: "It depends." It always depends first and formost on the type of work you plan to be doing - what tools you'll be using - and what operations you'll be performing. Because each thing you do has optimal requirements (bench height, dog layout, etc) that can differ rather drastically, a bench's characteristics are inevitably a compromise to encompass as many at as close to optimal as possible FOR YOU, YOUR WORK, and YOUR TOOLS OF CHOICE for performing various operations. There are no ultimate answers to any of this and no optimal bench for every one in every situation.
To give some context, my bench will be around 6 - 7 ft long and 24" wide. It will be located against a wall with only one long side and one end (right hand end) accessible to me. I am 5 ft 11".
That is almost precisely the size of my bench. I've been happy with it. Longer might have been okay, if I had room (I really don't). I think the two foot range in width is good because it acomodates most panels you're likely to work and yet is not placing things at the rear edge too far from you during other operations. I too am around 5' 11", FWIW.
1) Do you find a single-jawed tail vice sufficient? I was thinking that one of those dual screw Veritas tail vices, with 2 - 4 rows of parallel dog holes along the bench top, might be more versatile....? But perhaps all those holes is overkill?
I have no personal experience with the Veritas end vise, but it looks like a great product. Query though, if your bench will be agains the wall, will adjustment and use of that back potion of the jaws, be convenient and practical? I have found the tail vise full capable, with a three dog congiuration of holding large panels. If you are not going to have a front vise due the inability to work at the left end, perhaps the veritas is a better choice because it can be used like a front vise when you stand at the right end (the right end in essence becomes the "front" of a bench 24" wide and 7 feet deep if you get my meaning).
2) Is there an advantage in having square dog holes over round ones? I can't find a definitive argument for either, in any of the reading I've done so far.
It's personal preference I think. Round may be nice as they might accomodate wonder dogs and holdfasts more readily. The round ones might also be better for clamping non-rectangular shaped panels as the faces can pivot. With a square dog, you might have to put in some blocking. Round ones also might be easier to make, though the square ones where not very difficult with a router or dado set in the TS.
3) Would an apron on the long edge of the bench, that is deeper than the thickness of the bench top, be an aid or a hinderence, do you think? Without a vice, I was thinking that an apron would allow quick-clamps to be used to clamp a workpiece vertically for sawing DTs and such. I would use a holdfast through the benchtop, or (eventually, maybe) a tailvice+dogs, to hold work flat on the bench.
I avoided an apron, because I agree with Adam that it interfers with clamping things to the top (including running bar clamps under the top for certain operations), and provides little benefit for other operations. I see you point about clamping to an apron as a vise substitute, however. I think that will get old quick. I'd urge you to try to get a vice on the bench somwhere that could accomplish this.
4) Do you alter the bench height for every operation or is there basically a "high" and a "low" position you tend to favour? (I was thinking of making a separate assembly bench, for instance). A height-adjustment mechanism would over-complicate things for me. At the moment, I plan to make the workbench 34" high.....?
No. Since I built it, I have not altered the height in any way. Unlike Adam, for my working style and personal preference, I like the bench a tad high rather than a tad low (for many of the reasons stated in the Fortune/nelson chapter of the Landis book). IIRC, 34" is about the height of my bench. I do not recall ever thinking much about "this is too high" or "I wish this was 3 inches lower" etc. as I've worked on it.
Boss, Adam, Ray & Samson,
I am very grateful for this detailed discussion and the wisdom it contains. There is such a lot to consider in these posts so I have saved them for printing out, to peruse and ponder at length.
Boss - this is one of the longest and most helpful replies I have seen from you, vindicating my long-held theory that there is much wisdom under all that growling. It is good to have that wisdom, I value it and I am impressed by the arguments.
Adam - you are possibly a rather mad hatter, compared to most workers of wood hereabouts; but I value your very different perspective, not least because it gets the little grey cells to enquire more vigorously of many "assumed truths." Even if I end up thinking, "That way is not for me" in some instances, your perspective is very stimulating. Sometimes I think, "He's right".
Ray - although you are a naughty man, you too offer up sound, experience-based wisdom, often with a merry quip. I think of you as the Knots Voice of Common Sense (even though you are quite uncommon, in some ways). :-)
Samson - your immediately recent experience in building a bench, along with a willingness to let me pick your brains and bounce ideas off you, is just what I need. I have no one local to discuss bench-making with (they all twiddle their digits and suddenly remember a crucial need to wash their hair) so a one-to-one with an interested and experienced bench builder is just great.
***
This afternoon I bought 6 cubic feet of hard maple from my friend who makes the Large Furniture. It is about 50% more timber than I need for the top, but it were cheap (being his offcuts).
There is one 10 foot X 12" X 3" plank, albeit with 3 big knots that I can cut around; another 10 footer half it's width; and several 10 - 12 footers of 3" X 3" or 2" X 3". This stuff will form my bench top of around 11/4 thick, when I have cut and planed out the knots, bends, kerf marks and so forth. The Plano press is going to busy.
So, the wood pile for the bench is now complete. All I have to do now is decide exactly what design to make and then make it. It will be a bit of a two-tone bench.
And then comes the Great Vice Question....
I go to ponder your wisdom,
Lataxe, your diligent student
"I think of you as the Knots Voice of Common Sense"
Lataxe, I guess I'll have to settle for being the Knots Voice of Uncommon Sense.
However, I'd rather work with a vise on my bench than a vice, ha, ha. I've plenty of the latter------- and none of them are attached to my store bought bench: a few hundred quid, half an hour assembly, and off to the races so to speak. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Gamblin' is a sin and can also result in sore personal regions, when you fail to meet the interest rates. However, I have a list of less pernicious vices that I can recommend, should you feel the need for something novel, in a moment of jadedness. Many are free, if you don't get caught. Of course, not everyone enjoys the smell of lanolin.
You ARE the voice of sense, common and the other stuff that requires a syllogism or two in evidence. I would have bought a bench, if only they didn't have them skinny legs (I am a Fatima Whitbread fan, you know) and I wasn't saving for a Very Posh plane. Also, I have been carried away with bench-enthusiasm.
Lataxe, probably now condemned to make jigs.
Adam...Sometimes I think, "He's right"...
I wouldn't be surprised to know that after these moments you have An Urge To Lie Down and indeed you probably should.
Taun-Ton Macoute, M.D.
Edited 9/8/2006 4:37 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Doctor,
As you may know, The Mad Hatter actually made some startlingly original bonnets, before he put the dormouse into the teapot.
Meanwhile, I will have 2 of your chicken claws and one of them shrunken heads.
Lataxe, your patient.
Lataxe,
This is a great thread, you seem to have the ability to draw out great responses from the talent here. One aspect of your workbench design seems to have slipped past their view and, for me, it is a major issue; your 24x84ish workbench will be up against the back wall and side wall. I think your going to run into a lot of issues with a bench that is closed on two sides....but I'd love to hear what they have to say.
I'm in a similar situation. I can in theory get at both sides of the bench but often the space on one side is full of stuff. The far end is pretty close to a wall. I'm the same height as you and left-handed. I fitted a Veritas twin-screw vice, with four rows of dog holes and it's good. My only moan is that the knobs keep coming off the ends of the crappy wooden handles. I also fitted a side vice - an Axminster patternmaker's vice - with a row of holes in the side apron. This works well for edge planing, assembling frames etc.
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