So I’ve decided I’m going to invest in a good saw I won’t feel compelled to upgrade. Ever. So I’m moving off my initial inclination towards the Craftsman 22124, a hybrid, mostly because I’m nervous it’ll be underpowered for some tasks with thick boards, even if I wire to 220.
I don’t think I need to go all the way to 5 hp, so I can look at 3 hp saws. Here are my candidates:
Unisaw. $1850, but I’ve read some scary horror stories about table flatness and fit-and-finish issues and mis-machined tables and parts. Seems like the most satisfied Unisaw users have had ’em for over a decade. This could mean good “legs”, or it could mean the newer examples aren’t as good. Bies fence.
Powermatic 66. $2300, I’ve heard about as much good as bad. Since unsat folks talk about 10x as much as satisified, I guess this means a pretty high ratio of satisfied folks. Fence apparently very stable, a better Bies.
General 650-T50. $2000 or so. I’ve not seen a really negative report at all. Good Bies clone fence. I’m most concerned that I might not find a good dealer locally (Redmond WA).
Grizzly G1023SLX, $1300. I don’t know whether I should fear flatness issues. I could add a Bies; length of Shop Fox is 42″. Here, too, I’m concerned about finding a good local dealer.
What I’m trying to do is buy something with enough stability and power that I may accessorize until I drop dead, but I won’t need to upgrade the platform itself.
My intention is to make furniture and possibly cabinets for my own home and family, from a combination of sheet and solid stock. I’ve got my jointer and planer and DC, so the TS and BS are the only pieces of the puzzle still to go.
I’m convinced that I can do what I want to do, on any of these, though I wonder if I might want an aftermarket fence on the Grizzly (I just haven’t heard much about that fence). I’m more concerned about the difficulty in obtaining an accurate, flat work surface and correct setup.
Am I right in assuming that while the HP jump from 1 3/4 (Craftsman 22124) to 3 is significant (I’ve seen assertions that under 3 HP is underpowered for a full-kerf 10″ blade), the jump I’m not intending to take from 3 to 5 has more to do with achievable feed speeds than raw 10″ capability? I just don’t know why I’d need 5 HP.
My inclination right now is, General if I can find a good local dealer, Grizzly if I decided to take a chance, or PM if I can’t do either. I’m just too spooked by the horror stories on new Unisaws regarding mis-machining etc., and have nearly decided against the Delta. I’d welcome any comments, particularly with regard to the issue of setup, positive or negative comments on recent fit and finish on these four models, or any issues that would compromise my primary goal — eliminating the TS as a source of limits on the work I’d like to do.
Thanks!
PS I know this has generally been addressed many times. I’ve read back over a year, so I hope the specific questions I’m asking about these four models are worth addressing.
Replies
I have owned the 66 for 15 years now with out any problems at all. Back then I never heard of any body ever putting down Powermatic, it was the best money could buy aside from fully industrial saws. But as someone who has lost part of a finger on the table saw I would suggest looking at the Sawstop table saw. From what I read it is as good as any saw on the market and a hell of a lot safer.
I haven't seen anyone complain about the current PM66 either. I considered the SawStop, but several things have put me off. 1) The inventor doesn't want to continue the company, really wants to license the tech and quit manufacturing -- which means maybe no support, no brakes available in the future. 2) Wet wood can trigger a false stop, at the cost of a saw blade and brake. 3) The cost difference is more than minor; I can use that extra money for a riving knife and overblade guard for another machine.
I'm glad that machine exists but I'm not considering it myself. I am going to trust that with diligence and care I can avoid a serious shop accident, just as I trust myself to do something more dangerous every day -- drive my family on the roads!
Thanks very much for the feedback on the PM66. I hope to hear from others with recent PM66's as well, particularly with regard to setup issues / lack thereof. :)
Edited 9/12/2005 10:15 pm ET by vulcan666
vulcan666,
I don't own a SawStop (I still use a Ridgid benchtop table saw).But there is one detail in your last post that needs correction. You said that the SawStop is too expensive and, "I can use that extra money for a riving knife and overblade guard for another machine." This is untrue. You cannot add a riving knife to a table saw. It has to be designed for it, as European saws are and as the SawStop is.You can add an after-market splitter, which is very different from a riving knife.
Edited 9/13/2005 8:43 am ET by MatthewSchenker
The new powermatics have a riving knife
ron,
True, and I'm happy to see it!My point really is that you cannot add a riving knife onto a saw that doesn't come with one.Thanks for pointing that out!
Hmm, I honestly don't know the difference between a riving knife and a splitter. I'll have to look it up. Thanks for pointing that out (and not leaving my error out there to mislead others!)
I'll probably be ordering at the end of this week. I'm a little sorry I've not heard from more recent purchasers of these saws, but if I buy from a deal willing to commit to solving any problems that arise, I'm sure I can get up and running. Still listening though...
vulcan,
I'm from Kent and have dealt with Sumner Woodworker Store with outstanding results. They deal with Powermatic, General, Jet, etc. I bought the powermatic 14" band saw from them all set up, loaded it in my Bronco lying down, got home and resawed a piece of bloodwood that could darn near be used for laminate! Recently, I bought the General 50-185 contractor saw and they had set it up perfectly also. They probably won't beat the Amazon prices, but you will more than make that up with excellent service and free coffee and cookies! Good luck in your search and have fun!
I'm in Redmond so Sumner's a bit further for me -- and I only have a minivan for transport. I would definitely prefer a local dealer. Have you heard anything about Eastside Saw? I'll check into Woodcraft as well.
Thanks for the ideas!
Shippy -I was aboutto advise Vulcan that the nearest General dealer was Barbo in Portland. Would that I knew there was on in Auburn. I was living in Bellevue when I bought my cabinet saw (Unisaw) but would have rather had the General if it hadn't been for Barbo being so far away.Before buying my cabinet saw (about three years ago) I looked over the General (not the General International) at a woodworking show and was really, really impressed. The finish on the table top was superb! The trunions looked like something out of a WWII tank. Everything looked and felt like first cabin.That said - with respect to my Unisaw. Yeah, Vulcan, there was an issue with the table flatness although I don't own a really good machinist straightedge to document my whining. All I can saw is it took some hefty clamps and a bit of sweat equity to get one of the table extensions lined up as near perfect as I could. But, that aside, I think we get a little over wrought over this table flatness thing. When you stop to consider that even after milling as perfectly as we can, the wood is gonna move probably more than any out-of-flatness in a decent grade table saw. Not that we should accept garbage from mfrs. these days but ..... the reality is we're not machining stainless steel here.
I just went to Eastside Saw and looked at a Unisaw. They deal in PM and Unisaw and Jet, and the Unisaw looked and felt pretty good to me. With a local dealer committed to getting me set up right, my nervousness about the Delta is much reduced. I can get it for $1918 + tax, free delivery; 50" Bies left tilt, with extension table.
I'll have to decide whether Auburn is close enough for me to consider it "local". If so, I'll go look at the General.
I didn't mind getting my jointer and planer via mail order. I saved a few bucks and I'm happy there. I think I want more support on the TS.
One more factor I'd not thought much about ... there are about a kajillion Unisaws out there, and more than a few dealers. My sons should be able to find competent repair shops and replacement parts long after I'm gone...
So now I'm swinging back toward the Unisaw. I'll be deciding by Thursday; if I get the Unisaw, I'll take delivery in a week or two.
Oh man do I have to work on clearing out space in the garage, uh, I mean shop.
Thanks everyone for giving me some good things to think about. I'll post here once I actually decide, and until then I'll monitor for any other considerations raised!
Vulcan -You definitely can't go wrong dealer wise buying from Eastside Saw! They were my primary (and for the most part only) tool dealer while I was living in Bellevue. Tell Jim Hi for me ....! I stopped in last Sat. to pick up some supplies since I was "in town" but got there a half hour after they had closed (bummer)Their customer service is second to none. I've yet to find anyone up here in Mt Vernon who can sharpen saw blades as well as they can. If you have *any* problems they will jump through hoops to help you. I don't really think you'll be sorry for choosing the Uni. Yeah, it would be nice to have that General (I think) but for the money and my skill level, my Uni will provide everything I need for the rest of my life.
I was set to buy the General after researching and comparing reviews,cost etc. until I found a Powermatic 66 on eBay in great shape for much less than the General, I have never looked back in 3 years and it runs very smoothly, the only saw that I liked better was an old Atlas a shop in Seattle I worked in had, of course it probably weighed 500# more than the 66. If you are not afraid to tinker with (replace bearings etc) a used machine, you can save a lot of money to put towards other machines (as a result I was then able to afford a new 24" Agazani Band saw). Good Luck with your search.
Actually I am not terribly knowledgeable with machine parts etc. I would probably be quite hesitant to buy, say, a PM66 for $1K if I knew it had some mech issues I was going to have to address, because I just don't know enough yet. I think I'm going to be a lot more comfortable buying new. In other words, I think you're right but I'm not ready to handle it! :)
I've had a Delta and currently a Jet. Both nice saws. If it was my money, I'd get the PM 66. I like the old look. Mind if I ask why you're not considering a Jet in the mix?
Well, the reason I've not considered a Jet is because when I scan the dozens and hundreds of threads I've read through here and on other boards, the names that keep coming up as the "prime" machines are Delta (primarily for historical reasons, near as I can tell), PM (for both historical reasons and plain ol' good quality) and General (seems to be the "good guys with good gear at a fair price" favorite). So Delta is for folks who grew up with a Delta, or whose fathers did; PM is for high-dollar fullest quality, and General is for best current value.
I put the Unisaw on the list because it's the ol' granddaddy, and it just seems disrespectful somehow not to give it due consideration. "XXX millions can't be wrong," that sort of thing. The PM is there because it seems to be the nicest I could aspire to own (though not necessarily the best value). The General is there because it's won various editor shootouts, because some passionately recommend the saw, and because I haven't seen any serious complaints about the saw or the company.
Grizzly's on my list because I have a jointer from them, which seems to me to be comparable to good midlevel gear, but cheaper. Lots cheaper. Almost Harbor Freight prices, without the stink of disdain I detect when most mention HF.
OK so that's a lot of pretty useless (and probably unfair) generalizing... what I really mean is, nobody has sort of forced Jet into my consciousness. Are you saying there's a model I should be considering? I have to say I've not seen many people saying how great their new Jet TS is... or, to be fair, that they've had any trouble either! It just doesn't get mentioned like the other three (remember, Grizzly's there as the low-budget banner bearer). So Jet's not come to mind. Be honest, dirtstirrer -- have you just come to make my life HARDER??? :)
Be honest, dirtstirrer -- have you just come to make my life HARDER??? :)
Yep you guessed it!
Pretty much any cabinet saw out there today is in some way a clone of the good old Unisaw. So's the Jet. Some people don't like Jet, some don't like Griz, Bridgewood, General, etc. either. I think Jets fit and finish is better then Grizzley, but not as good as PM. Functionally identical though. My advice is to get a deal on the Delta, PM or Jet. I'd by used personally. Don't worry about service. These things are simple, and you can easily fix anything that could come up. I'd bet a buck that you never need service though. BTW, Jet has I superb web site and parts system. I pulled a bonehead and broke an adjuster on my jointer. Jet shipped one to me for $10 and it took roughly 30 seconds to fix it.
Steve
I am in the same situation, and I agree with your market analysis. I'd go with the General. I can't recall seeing a negative comment about it. I think if you buy it, you'll be pleased, and it'll probably be the last TS that you'll have to buy.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
If you buy before I do, please post about your experience. I am definitely interested in recent shipments, as I won't be receiving my saw ten years ago. heh.
Old Delta or old Powermatic - 1960s or earlier.
New - General would be my choice in the price range you appear to be confined.
Grizzly is certainly cheap enough pricewise. Draw your own conclusions.
There is quite an interesting SawStop thread running around - do a search. Another poster was quite correct when he said the founder of the company would like to get out of manufacturing. He stated this explicitly in an interview.
I don't think you will go wrong with any of those brands. Even the Grizzly will be significantly smoother and more powerful than any contractor's saw you might have used.
To answer your power question: Yes, there is a big increase going from 1 3/4 hp to 3 hp. Case in point - my Jet contractor's saw bogged down often ripping thick oak or maple. My PM66 has never bogged down, period.
If you can find stores where you can look at each of the saws, just play with them. Slide the fences, crank the adjustors, press the switches, and trust your own judgment.
Good Luck,
Dan
Of course what I'd really like to do is run some wood through it, see how the power feels. :)
Thanks for the feedback on 1 3/4 vs 3 vs 5... what you guys are saying seems to confirm what I'd concluded, reading between the lines on other threads (I've not found much discussion of 3 vs 5).
I've had a PM66 for about 8-9 yrs now and love it. I adjusted everything with a dial indicator when I first set it up, and haven't needed to re-adjust anything since. I didn't have the room for the full size extension table version so I went with the 30" fence version - one way you could save some $$$ if the smaller extension table setup would work for you. 3HP is plenty for what you want to do - especially if you're used to Craftsman's flaky HP rating system. IMHO 5HP would be overkill for what you need. I've had no problem with the 3HP ripping some extremely nasty gnarly recycled pallet oak at max depth of cut, or resawing Ipe 4x4's. The saw has never once sounded like it was at the limit of it's power.
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
I believe you. My problem is that I can't buy a PM66 from 10 years ago in a factory unopened crate. I'd have to buy a saw that they manufactured in 2005, and based on what I have seen posted here and elsewhere, I have concerns regarding their current quality. General seems not to have these issues.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I've always had a soft spot for the General 650, and the #1 ranking from Wood just kind of cemented it's place on my "dream saw" pedestal. I agree with you that any of these saws should be able to do what you want to get done. Even though I'm the happy owner of a 22124, I also agree that there's a significant jump from 1-3/4hp to 3hp, although you'll rarely hear anyone complain that 3hp is underpowered. With the right blade even the 22124 is plenty stout.
You might consider adding the General International 50-260 to your list for ~ $1250. Same licensed Biese fence that's on the General, but is made in Taiwan vs Canada. Not quite as industrial strength, but more than adequate and still comes from the same great company....they're excellent to deal BTW...still family owned.
I recently, about 4 months ago, bought the Grizzly 1023slx without ever having used one. I've used the old Unisaws quite a bit and so Grizzly had a lot to live up to, and they have. I love the 1023. It was much cheaper price, the top is spot on, and the extension tables required no shimming. The melamine side table took a bit to get level, but it works great. There is plenty of power in the motor to cut even big stuff.
Scott
Slacker Extraordinaire
Specializing in nothing but knowledge in everything.
Two questions. First, what did you have to do to level the side table? And how do you think the fence stacks up to current best of breed?
Thanks!
fence,side tableThe side table is bolted into place with 8 bolts, 4 front, 4 on the back. It takes 2 people to do the changes, that's the real issue. If you have a good helper, this shouldn't be a problem. I was stuck doing it solo which was quite difficult and time consuming.The Shop Fox fence is decent. I admit that I prefer an aftermarket beis that we had on the Unisaw. The Shop Fox fence needed some shimming in the center to make it perfectly flat. It was off by .015" in the middle. This is rare from what I've heard. The deflection of the end of the fence is terrific, very little play. It's also an easy fence to tune, and the one that I'm using still. Building jigs and add ons for the fence is also cake. Scott
Slacker Extraordinaire
Specializing in nothing but knowledge in everything.
I "suffer" with a jet contractors saw but at the Laney college shop they have 1 powermatic and 4 unisaws and I have used them all and these saws take a lot of abuse. They all seem to work well even with a limited maintanace budget. My father has a newer unisaw and has been very happy with it. I don't think you could go wrong with either of these saws.
Troy
vulcan666
You won't get any objective answers here either.. For example.. I used to own a Delta but that thing was sooooo terrible I bought a Grizzly. My Grizzly has been like the other Grizzley tools I've owned near flawless but then since I'm such a happy Grizzly owner I'm not very objective..
Most of those who post on here will have the same bias.. they bought brand X, it worked well and therefore anyother brand is inferior.
Now I need a 12 inch saw with a 5 Hp motor since I routinely work with 4x material.. but if all you ever work with is the skinny 1 inch stuff heck a 10 inch 3 hp should get you by, well except that sometimes working with long lengths of maple can pinch the blade back enough that 3 hp isn't enough grunt..
I agree nobody can really tell me which will be right for me, or be able to predict whether one or another manufacturer might ship me a lemon... Still I've gotten a lot from the conversation. Even when you've nearly made up your mind, it's still worthwhile to float your ideas, in the hope that if you're just dead wrong on something someone will clue you in.
I take your point on the long maple, but I don't think I'm likely to do the heavy-duty work you're doing. Funny how there's always something a few hundred dollars away that opens horizons just that little bit more.
Heck, first I was thinking about a bench saw, then realized it simply wouldn't be up to some of the tasks I wanted to do without great difficulty. So I considered a contractor's saw, but eventually rejected because I didn't need portability, badly wanted stability and a big work surface, and wanted a good DC solution. So I looked at the hybrids, and was very close to buying a Craftsman 22124, but decided in the end I'd possibly regret the 1 3/4 HP power limitation. I still think the work surface and fence etc. would have been sufficient. I do think I've crept as far up the scale as I need to, or am likely to unless I retire from my day job and do production-level wood work! :) STOP TEMPTING ME. (just kidding, I really appreciate the comments)
vulcan666,
long maple shouldn't be dismissed as unlikely, While I first found out about the problem with that #@^!^^%$)*(&**^$###$ delta saw. I also found out that I really needed the extra grunt when I made my raised panels from only six foot long pieces.. it didn't happen a lot with just 6 footers but it happened enough that a three Hp would have been marginal.. by the time I worked with the 8, 10 and evan 18 foot long pieces it would happen enough to be a real pain in the butt..
Seems a shame to have to cut a board just because your equipment isn't up to the task..
Well, honestly, I wasn't going to consider a 5 hp, but I found the 5 hp 50" LT Unisaw available for $1900, free shipping, no tax, plus free mobile base. With the $100 rebate, that's $1800 for a terribly powerful, capable machine. If I add the Uniguard, that should give me a very safe, dependable setup.
I am leaning away from buying local. This deal comes because the saw's shipped straight from Delta. At the local shop, they want $1918 (just up this week from $1849) plus tax for the 3 HP (with no mobile base), so that'd be $2086, call it $2250 with mobile base. That's about $450 more, and for the 3 HP vs 5 HP.
For about the same money, here's what I can do:
Local: 3 HP Unisaw, mobile base. Warranty service through local dealer. Saw's not in stock, so shipped from Delta to dealer, then unopened boxes trucked to me.
Internet: 5 HP Unisaw, mobile base, Uniguard w/Bies plate. Warranty service through local dealer. Saw's shipped direct from Delta to my garage.
The half hour I spent talking with the good guys at Eastside Saw wasn't $450 worth... I'll buy some blades and other supplies or tools there as appreciation, but it just doesn't make sense to pay that price for the big iron.
I have not found a situation where too much horsepower was a problem. Go for the higher if you can afford it.
I have not found a situation where too much horsepower was a problem.UNTILL I payed the Electric bill!
A couple of things to remember here, we aren't machining metal and with the inherent instability of wood, absolute accuracy isn't possible to achieve. If a tabletop has a little more than .003" variation across its length or width, you'll never know it. If anyone here has never cut a piece of wood that was a bit warped, cupped, bowed or twisted, I would be absolutely amazed. Re: the 18' maple boards, is it realistic to think that the first cut on a piece this long would be the finish cut? Maybe a more agressive blade would have been better for this, followed by a finer one. Yes, it takes another operation, but there wouldn't be any binding or burning. Most of these saws, including the Delta, are made in the same plant, by the same people. The fit and finish is based on the importer's specifications and the price point they want to hit. Looking around these forums and the various threads about TS, I have seen issues with all of the brands listed. Some have definitely been major and they weren't only from the ones that were shipped across the country. My G1023S came to Milwaukee from Springfield, IL around 4 years ago and there were no problems at all. I haven't adjusted anything in a year and a half, when I installed the 7' rails. I made my kitchen cabinets with it and am a freak when it comes to accuracy. Last weekend, I made a storage cabinet for my garage and when I set the fence to a dimension and measure it after, it's right there. This said, the Delta with a 5HP motor for $1800 is a smokin' deal. It's being shipped a pretty fair distance, but if the Delta name gives you peace of mind, go for it. If it really doesn't truly make a difference, look objectively at some of the others and make your decision. Either way, you'll be doing the same things, regardless of the saw's name plate and if the operator's technique, overall skill level, the materials are equal and the saws are set up properly, they'll all do the job.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
I found that when I ripped 18 foot long maple it would often pinch back on the blade enough to drag the motor down.. the shorter the boards the less it happens and if all you make is little bric brack then you won't ever need to worry about the power..
If you ever get a chance to build large stuff please do so. It is a real challenge and requires a whole new approach to wood working especially when you do this by yourself..
I do make larger things. That's the reason my saw has a 3 HP motor. The internal stress of the wood is hard to fight, but I'd like to know if 18' was the finish length of what that board was used for. Were you using a splitter? If it was the one that came with the saw, maybe making one specifically for long boards might help, something that extends deeper and takes the pressure off of the blade. Wouldn't want to hear about the boards kicking back. Why would you make a comment about making bric-a-brac when you don't have a clue about what I make? If the comment wasn't directed toward me, no problem. If it was,...I rarely have a helper when I'm making anything. Not that I have the ultimate setup, but I am equipped to cut long stock without problems.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
Yes. I use the splitter that came with the saw (when I use a splitter) my smart azzed comment about bric brack is intended as an insult to those who use their table saw for making small little boxes etc.. (my brother-in-law for example spends 90% of the families decrestionary capital on tools and stuff for his shop and the biggest stuff I see him make is 12" x12" He does it on a $5000 saw and has every jig/ fixture/ and option made for it..
The fact that I don't know enough about you to know if that is the case is my failing and I apologize..
Yes 18 feet is often the length of boards used in my home although the longest I've worked with have been 24 feet.. It's nice to make stuff without having to splice it especially on the outside!
Will George,
Too expensive to run a 5 Hp over a 3? Heck you must use your equipment a whole lot more than I do.. Now I use the equipment all of the time to help me build my double timberframe. and it's not uncommon for me to plane/ joint/ edge/ and sand 3 or three thousand bd.ft. a week and yet my electric bills never get over $40.00 a month. It'd be a lot cheaper but my wife uses an electric stove and we sure have plenty of electric gadgets...
I will say that before I changed my power lines from aluminum to Copper the bills were over $80 a month but there was a lot of corrsion in the terminals and I'm sure that added a lot of resistance to the load..
Now having said this I doubt that I draw enough currant most of the time to be anywhere near the five hp.. while I'm sure a 3 hp motor would draw even less right up to the point where the three hp would appraoch stall and currant draw would be at maximum..
Edited 9/14/2005 11:53 pm ET by frenchy
vulcan 666,
My comments about buying local vs. the internet..
Local guys get paid to sell their product.. when is the last time you went into a store and the salesman there told you, hey don't buy mine it's not real great and it's overpriced? I bought my Delta localy and for all the help those guys were I may as well have bought it from Mars..
Have you considered the Grizzley option? I don't have the catalog available right here but I suspect that Grizzley is several hundreds of dollars cheaper, I'm going off right now to see. I'll be back. Grizzley.com
The G1023ZX is about $1150 plus I think they get $85 to ship it to you.. that's a 5 hp saw with a 10 inch blade.. I think what i would have had to pay for local sales tax would have been greater than the cost of shipping it to me..
Now I bought the G5959 because I need to work with much bigger timbers.. but you indicated you didn't need a 12 inch blade. Part of the reason I used the 12 inch was because the blades in my sliding compound mitresaw are 12 inches so I already had several blades...
Edited 9/14/2005 11:32 pm ET by frenchy
I initially started leaning a bit towards the Grizzly, and had essentially all but eliminated the Delta. I have a Grizzly jointer that I think was a great deal. If I tart the Grizz up with a Bies fence (maybe I'd want to, maybe not) -- and given that I live in WA and would have to pay sales tax -- I don't pay much extra for the 5 HP Unisaw, which includes the mobile base.
So between these two, I see almost a financial wash. I don't have any particular indication that the Unisaw is better or worse for day to day operation. But I feel pretty confident that in 20 years I will be able to get spare parts and accessories specific to the Unisaw, and that I'll have a dealer reasonably close no matter where I am. This investment is almost three times what I paid for the jointer, and so I'm a bit more risk-averse regarding its longevity.
I'm not settled in, and were I more of a machinist type person, I think I'd be more likely to go grizz... but I'm not. As someone else said (maybe in another thread), I'd rather make sawdust than filings...
Man you guys are generous with your experiences and ideas! I feel like I've really gotten to forge my thoughts before jumping!
I'll post here when I order... quite possibly tomorrow. And the decision's not made until the credit card's out... :)
Just passin' by, but I'll toss in a few cents while I'm here.
It's not likely to cost any more to operate a 5 hp saw over a 3 hp, or for that matter, a 1.5 hp. In fact, a 5 hp Baldor L3608T is more efficient operating at 60% power (3 hp) than the similar L3606T 3 hp at 100% power (also 3 hp). As a general rule, motors only use as much power (from the utility) as they need to do the work imposed on them. The only difference of any real significance is that the larger motor can do the same work (cut the same thickness over the same length) in less time than the smaller one, and I suppose for certain operations/blades/woods, do it without burning by allowing a fast enough feed. Feeding faster works the motor harder, draws more power from the wall, but you're done in less time. It's all the same, essentially.
Some motors are more efficient than others, like 3 hp WEGs and Marathons (with run capacitors) being more efficient than 3 hp Baldors, which in turn are more efficient than Grizzly's motors, but unless you're production ripping heavy stock all day long, I doubt you'd notice the difference in the bill.
As far as which saw is 'better', I've used PM66's and Unisaws many moons ago when I worked in a cabinet shop, and once you slap a full 4x8 sheet of 3/4 veneer on it, and can no longer see the paint color or degree of polish on the top (long gone after daily use, by the way), I'll be damned if I could tell the saws apart. Unisaws have been around, with only relatively minor changes to the guts, since the late 30's. PM66's have been around decades, too, but I don't know how long (I think they evolved from 65's). They're all good saws (including Grizzly, General, Jet, etc.), and they'll all outlive you. They all weigh a ton, you'll never notice a 0.005" cup in the table when actually cutting wood on them, they have nice, big handwheels and good fences, and they're all stable, even on a mobile base.
Ignore the marketing hype, like the PM2000 CI base for "more stability" - more stable than what? I walk into my Uni all the time, and haven't tipped it over yet. I can't feel it wiggling when I cut, and it's on a mobile base, even. Larger arbor and bearings on the 66? They have to be, it's a cantilevered design - the radial load on the bearing closest to the sheave is about 4 times as high as on the Uni/Jet/Grizz bearings, all other things being equal.
I'm not knocking PM, by the way, or any other brand. Just don't pay as much attention to the hype as to your common sense. If I had it to do all over, I don't know which saw I'd get. But I guarantee nobody will be able to tell from the finished product what kind of saw was used, including hand saws.
I'm done. Carry on.Be seeing you...
Well, the credit card has come out, been drained (it's debit, not credit), and put away again.
I started off considering four saws: The General 650, the Grizzly 1023SLX, the Powermatic 66, and the Delta Unisaw.
I eliminated the PM based on price, being several hundred more than comparable saws (though, by most accounts, worth it on fit and finish).
I eliminated the General due to lack of close dealer, coupled with no significant price or functional advantage.
So it was Grizzly and the Unisaw. I essentially concluded that they're comparably functional machines, and that they would both do all I'd need to do (forestgirl's grin notwithstanding :) ). So there were two factors left: price, and support.
Price wasn't as much Advantage Grizzly as you'd think. If I decided to match the Delta 5 HP, which for $1800 includes a mobile base, good blade, free shipping, no tax, 50" Bies fence and full-rails extension table, I could go two routes with the Grizzly. The G1023SLX at $1300 needs the blade, mobile base+extension, shipping and tax added, to the tune of about $480, so it comes to only $20 cheaper than the Unisaw... plus it's 3 HP rather than 5 HP.
If I decide to go with Grizzly 5 HP (not a hard requirement), I spend more on the Grizzly than on the Delta, once I've got the extension rails and table, blade, mobile base+extension, shipping and tax figured in.
When it comes to support, I did fine with Grizzly on my jointer (though I've been waiting a while for the right knives to show up). But there's no local dealer, and if I should move somewhere else I have to give the advantage there to Delta. Plus there are about a jillion Unisaws out there, and sometimes there is safety and convenience in numbers.
There were a couple minor factors for the Unisaw. I intend to add a Uniguard, and feel it will be functional and safer. There are many other accessories as well, including sliding tables (my wife may curse you, forestgirl).
There was one advantage for Grizzly too. The Unisaw will be shipped to a freight terminal 15 miles away and I'll have to pick it up (ship to home costs $180 extra), while the Grizzly would be shipped to my garage.
In the end, the power edge (5 HP at the price of 3 HP) goes to Delta, along with the minor support advantage. Price was a toss-up or went to Delta. Quality of machine was a wash, as was what I felt I could do with it.
I think it's obvious what I did. I ordered the Delta 5 HP Unisaw for $1899, and it should be delivered next Friday, or early the next week. When I send in the form for the $100 rebate, I'll be down to $1799 total paid, including freight, mobile base, a good blade, and the full extension table. This is a HUGE step-up in price (double) and capability from the Craftsman 22124 I was going to buy, but I feel it'll be worth it over the life of the saw.
So I'm psyched.
I want to thank everyone who chipped in on this thread. I feel very confident about my purchase, and appreciate very much everyone's generosity in sharing their experiences.
Now to go install that 220 line!
I have the Grizzly 1023slx and can't be happier. Grizzly's tolerances are tight on flatness. mine was dead on. You would not need to add the Biess fence. The saw comes with a clone of that fence that is fine. It has all the power you could need. If you have any specific questions about the saw let me know. I did a review of my purchase here. If you want the link to the thread I'll dig it up.
I found it.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=18897.1
Edited 9/13/2005 8:25 pm ET by bones
"So I've decided I'm going to invest in a good saw I won't feel compelled to upgrade"
If you look at the Sawstop I think you'll find it is the state of the art in table saws and is loaded with features you won't find on any of the other products. The downside is it's about $2700.00.
I echo those who recommended looking at the SawStop. I bought the cabinet saw for the safety aspects, but I must say that the performance and manufacturing is fantastic in every regard I've noticed. Even the 66 doesn't rival it in my opinion. Just feel how smoothly the blade height and tilt mechanisms work and you'll see what I mean.
If the price is too high, SawStop is manufacturing a contractor saw for release sometime this winter, I think. If the difference in manufacturing quality that exists between SawStop and others in the cabinet saw category holds true with the contractor saw, it will be a fantastic contractor saw.
Now for an important caveat. I am not a professional woodworker or an engineer; I am an average-at-best woodworker on the long journey of trying to fill my house with my own furniture (and that built by my grandfather and great-grandfather). With that said, I would encourage anyone to look seriously at the real-life safety the SawStop offers.
All the saws you posted are 'good' saws''
I just have a sort of new BIG BOX saw and I'm SURE I can make anything cept fer' probably Lonny Bird stuff! I can't carve!
Now that I'm through chuckling at your first paragraph (sorry, but it was terribly funny), I'll suggest if you want to never, ever upgrade why not buy a European saw with a sliding table?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
It's a good skill, to be able to laugh at someone without giving offense. Well done. :)
What I really meant was, I didn't want to buy a saw that would be limiting or unsatisfactory in the foreseeable future. I'd no aspiration to own the "best saw in the world" -- I just wanted one I could use for decades without kicking myself for one or another serious limitation.
I may accessorize, I will certainly add other machines, but for what I want to do, I think this can be the cornerstone of my shop until I drop dead.
You're a sport, Vulc! OK, seriously now -- and keeping in mind I didn't take the time to read the other responses -- for the amount of cabinet work you're contemplating, the option of a sliding table would be wonderful if it fits the budget. BTW, there's an excellent General dealer in Sumner. A friend of mine bought his General contractors saw from them, and they placed it fully assembled and crated into the back of his truck, with the sweetest mobile base I've ever seen. When he unloaded it and checked it out, it was set up perfectly. He was quite pleased with the service, and he's not a pushover. I believe they're called, simply, Sumner Woodworking.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'd heard of Sumner (thanks to the folks in this forum!) but don't consider it close enough to be really "local." I really didn't reject General because there's anything wrong with it, it just didn't have any particular advantages for me, so the relatively minor inconvenience of a distant dealer was enough make it less appealing.
The sliding table thing, well, it may be something I develop a taste for way in the future, but I have a long ways to go I think, and besides if I eventually need one I've seen them sold for the Unisaw. :) I've got about a half dozen projects half-planned already, and won't need sliding tables for any of those. But in a few projects I'm gonna need a band saw... so that's next.
Hey, you're from around here... where's a good place to buy dried, rough cherry and maple? I've got a joiner and planer, so I'd rather not pay dimensioned prices. The ones I've spotted are Crosscut and Redmond Hardwood Supply, and the bits they have laid in at Rockler. Any advice there?
Thanks!
I buy mainly at Crosscut, I really like their layout and selection (not that I'm all that picky) and the staff is extremely helpful. With a resale license I get a bit of a discount. There's Compton (I think?) which is in the same area. For some reason, their place just didn't click with me. And their prices were higher. If you get out toward Port Townsend, check out Edensaw, it's very fun, huuuuuggggge warehouse. There's one other place I've heard of (would have to dig up the name) but they seem to sell almost exclusively in large, large lots.
I love my bandsaw ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I upgraded from an old Delta contractor's saw to a new 3HP Delta Unisaw a couple of years ago and have absolutely no complaints. When I tested the Delta Unisaw and PM 66 at a local dealer, I didn't see enough difference to make it worth paying extra for the PM. The dealer provided delivery to my shop (garage) but setup would have cost extra. It took about half of a day to setup the saw - and I went very slowly and carefully. Other than a slight tweak to the 45 and 90 degree stops, no other adjustments were required. One small surprise bonus: My crosscut sled from the old saw works just as well on the new saw.
Like I said - maybe I'm just lucky.
Good luck,
Richard Baker
I have owned my General for over 12 years, at the time I compared the Unisaw and the General and went with the General even though the price was about $200.00 higher. Even back then I paid over $ 2000.00 for the saw. The instruction manuals that came with the saw were poorly written and did not contain much usefull information. Based on my experience, I can highly recommend the General.
Thanks for your comments about your General cabinet saw. I just purchased the General 650 and am waiting on delivery. I also paid more for it than what I could have gotten a PM or others for, but I looked at the 650 very carefully and think it is worth the money for what I want.
The floor model that I looked at had the manual with it, and I can tell you that the maunal is still very limited in detail. However, as I am sure you know, the saw is a tank, built exceptionally well with precision construction and response, very impressive cast iron tables , as well as very heavy duty internal components and framework. I also spent time comparing the fence on the General 650 with some others and prefered the Geneal version of the Biesemeyer design. It was the machine that I felt most comfortable with, althought the Delta and PM are fine saws as well. I am really anxious to get it in my shop.
You will be very happy with the General, it is a great saw. I can remember ripping 2 1/2" maple, it cut like butter. One of the reason the General is so good, is that the run-out on the arbor is so low; makes it feel like there is more HP there than there actually is.
Keep us informed- I'd be interested in your impressions of setup and your initial use of the saw.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Vulcan, I have not seen the question on right or left tilting, Hilmar
Well, freight delays mean the saw's not here today, but it's en route and I should be picking it up Tuesday. Now to figure out how to muscle the thing into my garage (not too hard, thanks to an excellent thread on the topic from last year). I'll post once I've got it eating wood.
Thanks again to everyone who helped me make this decision. I'm going to have to live with it for many years, and I'm now quite confident I made a good purchase that will serve for a long, long time.
Since the saw and accessories will be in different cartons, if you have a couple of 2x12's or other ramps and a pickup, it's pretty easy. Especially if there's another person there to help. When I picked mine up(I couldn't guarantee that I would be home when they could deliver it), I put it in the back of my P/U and used ratchet straps to hold it in place. I laid the 2x's on the gate and carefully tipped the main box on its side with the bottom toward the back. I slid it down the ramps and when i got it to the garage floor, I righted it and unpacked everything. I have the Grizzly 1023S and I suspect that most of the brands will be packed similarly, so unless it has been dropped I doubt that it will have any major damage. IIRC, you're getting the long rails. If this is the case, make sure you have something supporting the right side(like the legs) before you assemble everything. It can tip with the extra weight outside of the base.This main carton will probably be very top-heavy, so be careful.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
IF YOU HAVEN'T RECEIVED YOUR NEW UNISAW YET- PAY ATTENTION TO THE SIDEBAR IN THE ASSEMBLY INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT MOUNTING THE LEGS FOR THE EXTENSION TABLE-IF YOU PLAN TO USE THE MOBILE BASE WHICH IS GREAT BY THE WAY -ROLL IT AROUND ONE HANDED- THE EXTENSION LEGS ARE MOUNTED DIFFERENTLY - AND IF YOU ARE LIKE ME AND RUSHED THRU TO CUT SOMETHING YOU WILL GET TO DISASSEMBLE RAILS AND OTHER CRAP- EASY AN HOUR OVERSIGHT
I wonder if I can assemble without the rails first, because I do want to cut something but my mobile base has not yet arrived (and won't for a week or more). Then I can assemble per the "with mobile" instructions...
That is an excellent heads-up, thanks!
all you need to do is install the legs for the mobile base - it will not effect the operation or the stability of the saw without the mobile base - i am sure you can slip the base under later- enjoy
So if installing the legs in a configuration compatible with the mobile base works without the mobile base... why do they have both configurations? Seems simpler to just have one. Do you know what the difference is?
Thanks!
you know my mind asked the same question after my post - but my recollection is the only real difference is the original location has the legs attached to the end of the extension and the legs are attached to the sides of the extension and alittle closer to the saw- i'm guessing the original is probably more sound and i don't remember exactly but guessing easier to originally install?-look at the instructions and tell me what you see -now i'm curious- but i am sure that i got to install them both ways!!
Honestly I don't think it's going to be very easy to put the saw onto the mobile base with the extension already attached... I'd be concerned I'll torque those rails far more than I want to if they're involved in the lifting process. So I think I'm going to see about a minimal assembly until the base arrives.
i looked at my saw and remembered correctly- with the mobile base the legs are moved in from attaching to the end of my 50" ext table to the next closest cross brace andboth legs move into the center -closer to fit into the mobile base- also the instuctions for the mobile base start after the saw is completely assembled- look at your instuctions -you will find the leg sidebar or note - so it isn't necessary to wait-i'm sure others have assembled one lately and can chime in.....
Well the saw was available for pickup last night. So I rented a U-haul open trailer, picked up the saw, and hauled my quarter ton of new steel down the highway home at 35 MPH. No way I would have done that at rush hour... 9 pm wasn't a bad time at all.
I've got it partially uncrated and wow it's a lot of heavy steel and machinery.
So I read all the instructions and saw the alternate leg placement instructions, thanks for the heads-up. Now I have to decide whether I'll set up the saw on my shop floor and try to pry it onto the mobile base when it arrives, or wait until the base arrives to set up the saw. But I want to make some sawdust!
I guess I'll distract myself by taking time to put in the 220 circuit, and wait patiently for the base. Hard to do, though.
CONGRATS- I KNOW THAT I LOVE MY SAW- LAST WORD OF ADVISE I UPGRADES FROM A LOT LESS POWERFUL SAW AND LEARNED THE HARD AND PAINFUL LESSON THAT WITH THESE BIG SAWS YOU CAN'T TRY TO BALANCE A FULL SHEET OF PLYWOOD OFF YOUR OTHER LEG AND A BASEBALL BAT- BEFORE I COULD STALL OUT ANY JAMS NOT NOW- THESE BABIES CAN FLY A 4X4 PIECE OF PLYWOOD BACK FAIRLY IMPRESSIVELY-I NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF SPLITTER AND ANTI KICK BACK CRAP- GREAT SAW HAVE FUN -
Thanks for the safety advice. I do respect that power -- that 5 HP saw is a lot more than twice as powerful as my "2 1/4 HP" router. Heh.
Well, given that the typical induction motor can generate 2 to 3 times it's rated torque (called 'breakdown torque'), and given that your router might make 2-1/4 hp at most, it's fair to say the saw can output about 5 to 7 times the peak power of your router. Treat it with respect.
By the way, I once had an old Unisaw with a 1 hp RI motor toss a 4 x 8 x 3/4 sheet of lumber core birch veneer ply back at me. It did stall the motor, but I guarantee a 5 hp motor would have done a much better job of launching that sheet of plywood.Be seeing you...
Vulcan,
Don't forget you've got some zero clearance inserts to make...that'll kill some time. I saw a tip about using the insert they sent and filling the underside with epoxy....hmmm. Congrats!
highfigh, you were dead right about unloading. We made a frame out of 2x6, added a ply face, put a 2x4-built stand under and made a ramp... we were able to just slide the crate off the truck and without jarring to ground level. Easy, safe and slow... and no lifting.
We tried to move it into the garage by sliding on a pipe, but the pallet broke over the pipe, so we just used a "forearm forklift" (heavy nylon strap with arm loops at the end) to scoot it a foot at a time while barely lifting.
Now I just have to figure out how to get the saw onto the as-yet-undelivered mobile base, if I assemble the saw right now.
Well I wanted to say I finally got my Unisaw set up last night, mostly. It was a bit of a wait, but I had to get the electricity in, wanted to wait to assemble until I had the mobile base (arrived last week), needed to clear out more junk to make room, etc.
So Monday I got the jointer working, Tuesday my boys and I unpacked the Unisaw and got the switch rewired (the 5HP 21A still comes with a 20A power cord and plug) and started on the mobile base, and last night I got the saw set up except for the fence.
No real problems getting the two cast iron extension tables attached and flat. It was really exciting to plug it in and switch it on, testing all that setup and wiring all at once. :) Even with the cheap blade they pack in, it cut nice and smooth, and it just feels and sounds great.
Tonight I'll get the fence on and the wooden extension table, set the 90 and 45 stops and my setup will be done.
I'm very appreciative of everyone's advice while I was asking these questions. Prior to this conversation, I was a bit afraid that the Unisaw would arrive horrendously out of flat, impossible to assemble, missing parts, mis-machined, rusty and ugly, etc. Read too many horror stories in the other threads I searched up, but you folks helped me take 'em with a grain of salt. Maybe my saw isn't the equal of the glory machines from days of yore, but it set up sweet and sliced through a little maple last night with a smile.
Thanks, everyone!
Congrats- hope that you have many years of good saw dust with your saw. Post in the Gallery any new creations...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I've designed and next week intend to start on a toy box. Crappy or not, I'll post it. Heck, some of the work in the Gallery is so nice I think a lot of us beginners feel intimidated. Maybe me posting will somewhat lower the curve.
Thanks!
One of the great lessons of WWing is learning how to fix mistakes so that they either aren't apparent or look planned...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Vulcan!Wonderful - the Uni!!You'll get lots of blissful hours of work out of it, no doubt. Odd, isn't it, how we agonize over these purchases - I did exactl the same thing - then once the decision is made, the machine arrives and gets set up, we start making things and forget all that agony!By all means post your work. I think with the proper lighting, camera angle and so forty you'll be surprise how nice your piece(s) look.
Last night I got the fence rails, the wooden table and the fence installed. Man, this thing cuts like butter, and that's with the Delta blade. I can't wait to see what it's like with a Forrest Woodworker II on there...
Even on the mobile base this feels quite steady and solid.
Cheers, all!
"Man, this thing cuts like butter, and that's with the Delta blade."Yeah, and like any other saw, it doesn't discriminate between wood and human flesh! Be careful!! Can't wait to hear about your first kickback. (grin) That much power behind a kickback - you'll never find the board.
Well, no kickback yet but I was cutting some shims. One was too thin, fell through the plate and the blade shot it out the dust chute. I heard it, never found it. Glad it was that little piece, not the stock I was cutting it from. :)
Vulcan -First thing, or second or third depending, you want to do is get yer hands on some thin sheet stock with which to make a bunch of 0 clearance throat plates for that new mondo wood slicer of yours! One problem, at least with my Unisaw is that when the blade is in the full down position it's just barely below the surface of the table. Meaning that if you make these throat plates you have to figger out how to hold them in place while you start the saw to rais it up through the material. That one I haven't gotten down too well - I just remember to stand clear of the front of the saw when doing mine. There's a pretty high pucker factor involved. Perhaps someone else with a Uni can offer a suggestion as to how best to go about this.
My plan is two boards across the table, clamped to the rails, two boards attached between them go across the top and bottom of the insert. I'm not a big fan of puckering... :) I might put a little work into the jig so I can swap in new plates pretty fast, so I can turn out a dozen per batch without much effort.
Yeah, I've got a few things to do. Some zero-clearance plates (and some blank inserts while I'm at it, the jig I just mentioned, and the obvious stuff: crosscut sled, miter sled, additional push sticks and hold-downs, featherboards, holder for saw blades, etc. Then in two weeks I should get my router lift, so I'll install that into the extension table.
Plenty to do!!! Plus I want to start on that toy box. Hehe.
DennisS,
I haven't been terribly happy with the plywood/plastic zero clearance inserts...homemade or store bought. I saw an idea that I'm currently trying..so far so good. I took the metal plate that came with the CS and fitted a piece of wood from the underside...and then filled the mouth with epoxy..and sanded flat. For initiallizing the cut through the wood/epoxy, I lock down the plate with the fense...and put a dado blade on if necessary...and then finish the job with a regular blade.
Use a small diameter blade to make the initial saw kerf in the zero clearance insert. Zero Clearance is definately needed for small piece safety.
I thought about that, actually did it but have to use a blade the exact width in both cases. I don't have any 8" blades that cut as wide a kerf as most of my 10" blades.
You can often find 9" blades on ebay really cheep. should do the trick.Troy
Read too many horror stories in the other threads I searched up..Many folks have a 'AX' to grind about anything.. Old sayin' don't believe everything you hear OR read! My posts included!
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