I am considering purchase a some rasps and/or files to clean up bandsaw curve cuts. I own a low-angle spokeshave but it only works well on gentle curves. I am looking at the Nicholson #49 and #50 but after reading some posts it looks like one good Auriou might be a better long term investment than the two Nicholsons. However, I’m not sure which Auriou to purchase? Also, it seems I’ll need a good file to accompany either the Nicholsons or the Auriou. In all, I only have an immediate budget of $150.00.
Thanks for your input.
– Lyptus
Replies
Good question. I have probably 50 different metal working files of all types. NONE of them work as I would expect on wood.
I'll be watching this post for some input 'from those that know'
Call Toolsforworkingwood.com. The person that answers the phone will address all your concerns. Just be prepared to ask and answer a few questions. This is what I did. I ended up with the two rasps (of the 50+ offered) that very much met my needs.
I have the Grain 6 Auriou for rough work. Very nice tool and amazing considering it is made by hand. For your application you might want to consider a grain 9 or 11, but suggest you ask someone with more experience.
Best of luck.
I bought several Simonds files and Rasps when I started out for the price of one Auriou:
http://bandsawblade.com/SimondsFiles/americanpattern.htm
They do fine. I've recently acquired a couple Auriou's and they are significantly nicer to work with. It all depends upon your budget and your needs. If you don't anticipat using these tools often, the ford might do fine for you, in lieu of the Cadillacs.
As used by pattern makers.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=30288&cat=1,42524
Lyptus old friend
I am hesistant to advise you only since it was not long ago that I asked the same questions. This reply comes from a new convert to Auriou rasps.
As you may know, I have been shaping plane totes and saw handles for several years, as well as the odd bit of waste removal in cabinet work. I relied on a microplane, a variety of Nicholson files, and a set of cheap Chinese rasps. All of these were either too coarse or too fine, and I needed to rescue the efforts with sandpaper. This probably sounds familiar. Anyway, this is the intended use for the new rasps.
The trouble starts when a novice wants to purchase Auriou rasps because there are so many, and the choice is confusing. For example, a longer rasp will be coarser than a shorter rasp with the same grain. I discussed my proposed purchase with others, including Mike Wenzloff. Of course Mike has a very wide selection for his needs, and I just wanted three, a fine, a medium, and a coarse. I excluded the more cost-effective Nicholson rasps (#49/50) because the teeth do not extend to the sides and because the end is square. These features limit their use (for my purposes) and I would likely have needed to purchase addition (ha! see later!).
I wound up ordering the following from The Best Things (who offer the widest selection, plus the rasps come with a good handle, which I was advised was better than the handles provided by others, such as LN and TFW:
Derek,
You are bluddy marvel! I am compiling my rasp order at last. Thank you for the .... well, I've lost count of the many, many times I have used your WW wisdom.
Lataxe
Derek,
A vote of thanks from here as well. That is precisely the type of feedback needed to put together a starter set, and the descriptions and model/part #'s are a great help.
Thanks again,
Lee
Derek,I’m glad that you replied to my post. Your advice in the past has led me to purchase five Lee Valley-Veritas hand planes and I'm now attempting hand cut dovetails on the baseboard of a Shaker style dresser. Of course, it is taking me forever but I'm learning a lot and having fun which is why I started woodworking in the first place. Based on your list, it sounds like buying one good Auriou rasp to start would be a better investment than buying two Nicholson rasps, especially since the comparable Aurious can be more aggressive yet leave a finer finish than the Nicholson rasps. From you list, it sounds the best substitute for the #49 and #50 rasps would be the: 1 AU-8-175-10 Auriou Straight Rasp #8 175mm - 7" G10 Also, since you said that longer rasps of the same grade are coarser, would you also recommend the following as a #49/#50 substitute?1 AU-8-200-11 Auriou Straight Rasp #8 200mm – 8” G11All else equal, I suppose the main advantage of a shorter rasp over a longer rasp is that it can access smaller radius openings and curves given its narrower profile. I assume that a longer rasp will offer more cutting surface and therefore be more efficient for flat surfaces and gentle radius curves. Am I characterizing these tradeoffs accurately? Would the Auriou Straight Rasp #6 150mm - 6" G15 be an adequate substitute for a bastard file or is a set of files needed even with a set of super-fine grade Auriou rasps?As always, thanks for your invaluable advice.- Lyptus
Hi Lyptus
As I mentiobed earlier, I too am new to Auriou rasps and, as a result, I am hesitant to offer advice. Here is what Lee (of TBT) wrote me:
The Auriou rasps come to a point whereas the Nicholson is blunt. Some
argue that this is useful. It has not mattered for me. Other than that, I
would say that a 50 is not course as a 6 grain Auriou. The Auriou vary
quite a bit between each other, but I would say that the 49 is around a
6. My estimate of a 50 is closer to a 9 grain Auriou.
Keep in mind that all the Auriou rasps are hand made. There will be slight variations between the same item number. Not only are longer rasps coarser than shorter rasps, there are #4, #6 and #8 types, which differ in width and curvature. When Lee (above) talks of a 6 grain or a 9 grain, he says this as rough guide only. I have no idea how to advise you on your question.
What I can say is that the 6" and 7" lengths do not feel small. Don't let this this put you off this size.
Incidently, I have ordered two more Aurios, one is the finishing rasp I mentioned before ..
AU-6-150-15~Auriou Rasp #6 150mm G15
The other is a finishing riffler that will get into the inside curves...
AU-Rif-160814~Auriou Riffler 160mm G14
Hopefully someone like Mike Wenzloff or Joel (TFWW) will have their say.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I must disagree. The major innovation Michel Auriou made in in raspmaking was making sure that a Grain 9 rasp (for example) is EXACTLY the same roughness no matter what the size or shape of the rasp. And he's really proud of this. As a matter of fact he has standard rasp sample for each grain (we have them scanned actual size on our site - see the thinkie on rasps). (or just compare two rasps of the same grain - making allowances for the fact that they were made by difference people but will cut exactly the same). The second thing is that you always want to use the longest rasp that will fit in an application. Simply put: longer stroke- faster cutting.Finally - all quality hand-cut rasps and the nick 49 and 50 (which aren't actually hand cut) leave a pretty good surface - even the reasonably coarse ones - but all need to be followed up with either sandpaper (if you must) or a scraper. Even Roubo writing in the mid 18th century says follow the rasp with a scraper.
Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Hi Joel
Thanks for your input. I have no difficulty bowing to your vastly greater experience with Auriou rasps.
I did read your website - many times over in this regard - and there is a wealth of information about these rasps (as well as so much else). However, I still left unsure what exact items to pick. I am speaking for myself here, but I wonder if others feel the same confusion about the Aurious. In the end I made a choice, and it was not the best I could have done.
I was also very tempted by your Grammercy rasps. I hear very good reports. They also appear well priced. And more recently, I have heard good things about the Chinese-made rasps sold by LV. But the problem remains in that I do not know where they fit into - if there is such a thing - the grand continuum of rasps.
About a month or so ago I asked the question on WoodCentral "which rasps could I get as a starter set?" Many replied, but all basically just listed all the rasps they had and not why or where they fitted into the rasping sequence. So I left more confused than I went in. I read some more and I discussed rasps with Mike Wenzloff. I have known Mike some years now and absolutely trust his judgement. When he said get the Lutz handles, I did - even though they are the uglier looking of all available!
With my novice hat on, my request would be to put together a few lists of recommendations for various user types, explaining why each rasp was chosen. Also, how do the Grammercy rasps and the Nicholson #49 and #50 compare with which Aurious?
My preference is for shorter blades since these just seem to have more immediate feel and control for me - which may simply reflect my lack of experience with rasps. The single 10" one I have certainly has a lot of power, but I do not look for this when trimming a tote.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Control and power are sometimes but not always a tradeoff. THe rim, or bump, or detail, or whatever you want to call it on the Auriou handles, the LN handles, Scrooze-on, and on the Gramercy handles is there to give your thumb and forefinger control at the expense of a little power. (Handles are important and with the right handle any length rasp can be used with finesse)
It is also really hard to relate three distinct rasps styles to each other. A 10 grain Auriou rasp will cut finer and faster than either a 49 or 50 so to say there is a natural progression between brands isn't really the case. My general advice to people if they are on a budget is to buy a 49 (with a proper handle) and start using rasps. if they want something a little more delicate get the small Gramercy (which is based on the nick 55) or a 6" grain 14 auriou modeller's rasp. Then if they are making chair legs - get a coarse Monster. What you want to do is complement the size rasps you have, not try to get a finer finish with the same size rasp. If the budget isn't that tight get the Gramercies instead and if the budget isn't tight at all start with a 9" Auriou. Once you have a frame of reference of what a regular sized rasp does in the type of woodworking you do than what to get next will naturally suggest itself. I understand being down under makes it a little harder because you want to save on shipping and get stuff at once. Me, personally I have a 49 and 50, have had them for years, and I don't do anything so small that I feel the urge to get more rasps. Or rather the few times I did I just borrowed something from the store demo's. I mostly use rasps for shaping curves and softening edges and the incremental better surface of a really fine rasp isn't as important to me as is speed. The Aurious clearly feel better in the hand, and if I need to replace mine I will go Auriou or Gramercy (probably the latter because it's my own brand) but I certainly can't justify replacing them this second. A lot of the difference between the brands is just like cars, a Rolls gets you to the store just as fast as a Yugo, but for a price the Rolls is a lot more comfortable and has air conditioning. (Nicholosons are not toothed on the edges a feature I didn't know was really handy until I had tried the Aurious)The reason we stock over 100 different sizes of rasp is not because we expect anyone to need 100 different rasps (although we aren't stupid and wouldn't say no and would give you a good price) the reason is that everyones needs are different and even on the first purchase there are quite literally different strokes for different folks. Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Thanks for your input, Joel. Based on your comments, if the Auriou 9" Grain 10 cuts faster and finer than a Nicholson #49 wouldn't even an entry level woodworker save money by purchasing the one Auriou over purchasing two Nicholsons (the #49 and #50)? What about the Auriou 8" Grain 11 compared to both Nicholsons? I have enough tools to know that one tool cannot do it all, but it sounds like this is a case where spending a little more money upfront on one great rasp would be worth the investment.- Lyptus
I would say on the 9" Auriou pretty much yes, although the expenditure is more than just getting a single #50. The 8" #11 will cut marginally finer and pretty fast but I think the extra length of the 9" is a better general purpose tool. That being said the 8" Aurious are overall a very popular size.
Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Thanks. An earlier post spoke of also using a rasp to trim handcut dovetails to fit. What size/grain Auriou rasp would you recommend for that purpose or in general, is trimming dovetails with a rasp not advisable. I've tried trimming dovetails with a sharp chisel and it was a very time consuming process (although I've only handcut one set of drawers to date).- Lyptus
I would say something short and fine (grain 14 or 15) but a chisel is what I use when needed. (Practice your sawing - it will save oodles of work)Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
L,
My experience as a newby with handcut DTs chimes with what Joel said - start by cutting as accurately as possible (which also means accurate marking out).
Assuming I have sawn aright, the waste is taken using a fretsaw to cut along the scribe line so that there is just a small amount to chisel off the pin or tail "floors" (the end grain). A strong scribe line, or even a ledge created on the inside faces with a rabbet plane, a la Cosman, seems to keep the fretsaw cutting true.
If there is a need to trim the "walls" of the tails or pins then use of a chisel, when the amounts to be removed are substantial, seems to be the most efficient method.
I like to use a pair of 10mm skew chisels with 25 degree bevels, for both the "floors" and the "walls".
If the fit is close but just a bit tight (the ideal condition after sawing) then I find a small, flat file is best for relieving the walls. The one I have was part of a dirt-cheap set but it's fine teeth will take off that thou or three in no time. Being small, flat and without teeth on its edge, it is easy to control and to keep the pin/tail walls vertical.
I have no experience (yet) of the Aurirou rasps but would be wary that their more aggressive (than a file) action might either take too much or spoil the verticality of the "walls". Also, I believe there are teeth on the edges (???); if so you would risk cutting into the "floors" by error.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Ah but another bit of wisdom to add to the file.
Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"The Best Things (who offer the widest selection, plus the rasps come with a good handle, which I was advised was better than the handles provided by others, such as LN and TFW:"
FWIW, I have Auriou's with the walnut handles (Lee Valley and TFW IIRC) and the LN handles. I have no complaints at all about either. I've see TBT's handles, and while I have no doubt they are fine too, I cannot imagine they are significantly better than the other two. As far as selection, TFW has a wide one. LN's and LV's are nothing to sneeze at either. I like all these suppliers, so I just wanted to say that they all have a decent selction depending upon what you are looking for and handles are really a personal preference. I prefer LN's to the walnut ones, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next guy had the opposite preference.
--- Edited to add:
For a laugh, and to try out the movie function on my digital camera, I made a 1 minute movie of my new shop cabinet - largely built to house some of my favorite shaping tools, among other things. The Auriou's I mention are featured so you can see the handles, again for what it may be worth:
http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3009283400032524639DEILlw
Edited 9/10/2007 10:27 pm ET by Samson
One cannot argue with personal experience. So I won't.
For myself, my sons, and others I personally know with the skinny handles, we all changed them out. They cramp our hands using them for longer periods of time.
The Lutz handles are available locally to me (Ace Hardware). It's nice they are offered on the Aurious because we use the heck out of the things. But I would pop off the skinny ones if that is what Lee also provided and for a couple bucks put the Lutz handles on them. It's the same with our files...Lutz on all them as well.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Just for clarification, since I am following the thread in the hopes of wading through which rasps to get for a starter set myself:
Are the Lutz handles only available at your Ace, or are they also available from one of the vendors that sell the rasps, and if so, which one?
Thanks,
Lee
Hi Lee,
Lee Valley sells what may be Scroo-zon (however it is spelled) as does Lie-Nielsen and Tools for Working Wood. The Best Things sell the Lutz (it is what they supply on the Auriou and sell for other files/rasps).
I suspect there are several on-line dealers selling the Lutz.
The difference between the Scroo-zon and Lutz is that there is a metal threaded portion in the Scroo-zon and the Lutz are simply wood that the file/rasp is jambed into. Perhaps it is because the Lutz are the type I grew up using that I like them better. But every Scroo-zon I have (got several) allow the rasps and files to "wiggle" a bit--though they hold very securely.
Take care, Mikeback to emails...
Mike,
The walnut and LN handles vary in size with the style and sizes of rasp. LN's in particular are not small or thin, at least on the two I have. If you are using the modellers sizes in the 4 to 7 inch range, I can imagine that the small handles could be uncomfortable for use in long work sessions. Also, no doubt you and your sons use rasps so much that differences tolerable or unnoticeable to a hobbiest like myself scream out to you as professionals using the tools day in and out. I defer to you.
Thanks.
Another option that is MUCH more cost effective than the Auriou or Nicholson, but have also recieved good reviews (I think it was FWW, tho it might have been PW) are the hand cut rasps available through Lee Valley. I have found to be excellent quality and are great for the first shaping. Then use a file, etc. for the final, pre-sanding, smoothing.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20133&cat=1,42524
Whatever you choose, keep it clean (file card), work on your technique, and enjoy.
Try a higher angle spokeshave. The Stanley 151 is my main man for cleaning up rough bandsaw cuts, also had some luck with the card scraper on tighter stuff. Not much experience with rasps and files, though. I don't think that low angles are as versatile--so don't give up on the spokeshave! And keep in mind that I'm not recomending the Stanley 151 per se.
P.S. My wife says that the sound of my typing makes her think of bugs. Wierd.
Sorry for the delay.
I forgot that I have a set of inexpensive Rifflers that I got from Woodcraft several years ago. They also have expensive sets but the cheap one work well enough for me.
See link
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=1952
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