Replies

1. 
   BG | Aug 06, 2005 07:07pm | #1

   Papa Terry,
   Fascinating, we were discussing this last night at dinner. The concenses was the most comfortable seats ever were at St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic Church in East Lansing, MI. They were all wood but something about the dimensions and pitch made them extremely comfortable. My guess is if you called the diocese office perhaps they would have the Architech of record.

    

1. 
   papaterry | Aug 06, 2005 07:19pm | #2

   Thanks.  I'll follow up

2. 
   forestgirl | Aug 07, 2005 12:22am | #3

   ...and a softly rounded front edge.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   MarkRD | Aug 07, 2005 03:12am | #4

   You wouldn't want the pews to be too comfortable people will fall asleep...If everyone who went to church was laid end to end, they would be a lot more comfortable. (I don't remember who said it).Mark
   

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

   Visit Dust Maker

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 07, 2005 05:50am | #6

   On of my favorite "antiques" that I bought and sold when in the biz was an old church pew.  It was made of ash, can't remember but maybe 8' long?  Weighed a ton!!!  It was so cool.  Needed a little rehab before I could sell it, but sold quickly.  Would have kept it if we didn't live in a little house.  My first experience with ash, and I still like it alot.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   EdHarrow | Aug 07, 2005 06:01am | #7

   I regret to say that there are several old pews down at Mum's.  Regret as the pews were all removed from the church, which dated to the early 1800's (and these were original) when an addition was done, lengthening the building.  The originals were curved, and most of them went into the dumpster.  They were replaced with straight ones.  I'd never been back till a couple of years ago (for a funeral, of course).  It was a disgusting sight.  You never would have fallen asleep in the originals!

2. 
   WillGeorge | Aug 08, 2005 08:06pm | #15

   Folks should try to use ASH more in their projects......It is a wonderful wood and FULL of suprizes when you cut it.. QS can be amazing if you like that look..Sometimes hard to match though.. Re-Saw in both half look different?Ash is like a woman.. Looks OK plain and much better after workin' it a bit..

3. 
   creekwood | Aug 07, 2005 03:37am | #5

   Papa Terry, several years ago the church I attended had a small expansion, and I built ten pews to match the old ones, that were over 100 years old. I had them to use for making patterns, so I didn't have to come up with the dimensions. But in my collection of books, I have a reprint of " The Modern Carpenter Jointer and Cabinet-Maker", circa 1902. It's an 8 book set, reprinted in 1990 by the National Historical Society. Roy Underhill was a consultant. There's a small paragraph on church pews of the time period, and I quote from that section:

   "Pews in churches and chapels are usually constructed to give a seat-length of 18 or 20 inches for each person, and the backs are from 30 to 36 inches from centre to centre. A convenient spacing is 33 inches, as shown in fig. 1180, which gives three different designs for pews. In the first the book-shelf is supported on brackets, these being often spaced to show the number of "sittings" in the pew; a drawer for books is formed under the seat, and is opened from the pew behind; the space from the seat to the floor is filled with vertical match-boarding. In the second example a rack takes the place of the simple shelf, and the boarding under the seat is placed in a different position to allow more room for the feet and to allow hats to be placed in sight of the owners. In the third example the book-rack is at a lower level, and the boarding under the seat is omitted. The seats are hollowed on the top, the front edges being rounded, and are 1 and1/2 inches thick, and supported on shaped standards about 1 and 1/2 inches thick and from 3 to 4 feet apart; the ends of the seats are housed into the "pew-ends". The backs are of 1 and 3/4 or 2 inch framing, with the flush panels of narrow V-jointed or beaded match-boards. The pew-ends are usually 1 and 3/4 inch or more in thickness, and are screwed to the flooring and to the seats and backs. In many cases, the backs extend down to the floor."

   Sorry, but I don't have a scanner, or I could show you the examples. I would go and look at as many pews as you could, and I believe the angle of the seat and back will be very close to the same on all.

   If I can answer any questions, please let me know.

1. 
   papaterry | Aug 07, 2005 02:14pm | #8

   Thanks for taking so much time to re-type the info.  I will print it out and begin to colate all I am receiving.  It will be an interesting project.

   Terry

4. 
   Crunk | Aug 07, 2005 02:54pm | #9

   Did some years ago and we researched the project with several older churches within a 100 mile radius of our operation.  Everybody was very cooperative we took photos, measurements, and ultimately very detailed scale drawings were produced for the project. 

   You need to do the legwork to do the project.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/9/2005 11:13 am ET by BossCrunk

1. 
   papaterry | Aug 07, 2005 03:51pm | #10

   Love legwork!  Figured it would be a challenge.

1. 
   Crunk | Aug 07, 2005 04:49pm | #11

   Will the pews require kneelers?

   Within your first visit or two to measure you'll get the basic dimensions worked out.  The most comfortable pews have deeper seat depths IMO, but you may be limited by other factors.  The most comfortable pew to sit in is ruined if the pew spacing is too tight between pews. Again, there may be other constraints such as the absolute number of worshipers the church must hold.

   You definitely need to find out early on if the pews have to be built to accommodate cushions.

1. 
   papaterry | Aug 07, 2005 05:03pm | #12

   Thanks for the response.  This project is a serious undertaking and a lot has to be decided just as you indicated.  I would like to not have cushions-we get too comfortable in church already.

   Terry

1. 
   Crunk | Aug 07, 2005 08:23pm | #13

   Your project is an enormous undertaking, even for a small church.  When I did it I had fifteen employees and easily could have kept fifteen more busy.

   Edited 8/7/2005 1:25 pm ET by BossCrunk

2. 
   papaterry | Aug 09, 2005 01:27am | #17

   I am painfully aware of the work ahead of me.  I don't think the church members realize what they have asked of me.  I am retired, or so I thought!  I don't have enough space or large enough equipment.  I normally build furniture so the job doesn't intimidate me but the size does.  The church has agreed to rent a larger shop for me and even some equipment until the job is finished.  Since you have built some is there any chance I could contact you?  My biggest questions are angles, thickness and distance between supports.

   Thanks for your comments.

   Terry 

3. 
   Crunk | Aug 09, 2005 09:45am | #18

   Have you discussed compliance with the Americans With Disability Act with the project's architects?  Building codes, fire codes?  Are you responsible for the overall layout of the pews?  Has the wood been selected?  Will these be in a Catholic or Episcopal/Anglican church?

   The project we did was for a cathedral church in a Catholic diocese.  The pews had to accommodate kneelers and this changes several measurements significantly vs. pews built without kneelers. 

   Precisely how many worshippers are you committed to build seating for?

   I've just got to tell you if you don't have an operation already up and running this is going to be very, very tough to pull off gracefully. This is a hugely specialized area of woodworking for a reason - not so much the technical challenges (although they can be significant under certain circumstances) but the logistical challenge and the investment in plant and people.

   I get the sense that you feel you've had a calling to do this project and I respect that so don't take these questions the wrong way.  Has the congregation chosen a style for the pew ends? 

   Edited 8/9/2005 3:43 am ET by BossCrunk

4. 
   papaterry | Aug 09, 2005 02:02pm | #19

   Questions are fine.  I would work closely with the architect and am well aware of the Am. w/ Dis. Act.  No kneelers.  I am going to suggest to the church to consider purchasing used ones.  While I would like to help them out, if it appears too cumbersome I will not pursue.   I have built enough tables, chairs, benches to have some appreciation of the challenge.  We are at least a year away from a new sanctuary (and pews can come a lot later-we still use chairs in our present sanctuary.)   The design has not been discussed.  I do not anticipate constructing every piece  as I would never be able to complete the job.  I may well do the ends and have the seats/backs built by a local company that is set up for long runs.  I  can finish them my self.  I do have another man in the shop so I'm not by myself.  I still have to deal with the hymnal, communion cups and note holders on the backs.  If you built some, do you have any drawings?  If not, I assume the architect can lay his hands on some.

   Again, thanks.  Terry

5. 
   Crunk | Aug 09, 2005 04:52pm | #20

   We did our research and then worked with the architecture firm who produced the actual drawings.  The cathedral renovation was a multi-million dollar project and everything needed to be signed off, we felt more comfortable using the project architect's staff than our in-house draftsman at the time.

   When you get a little further into this thing I might be able to cut loose a few drawings but I'm not making any promises.  FWIW, I did this project over ten years ago.

   Are you at the stage where you're trying to put together a bid?

   I think the first thing you need to do is get your arms around the process.  Somebody is going to have to produce ideas for the pew ends.  You can do a lot of research and do sketches, rip a design off from an established company (not good), photograph existing pews, scale a drawing off of photos of pew ends.  This part of the project took HOURS  of work.  Several meetings with the parish council, bishop, rector, finance council, and architects were required.

   The easiest route would simply be to have the architect handle the design of the pews with minimal or no input from you.  Indeed, they may be planning on that or they may have arranged for an interior design firm to be part of the team (a real design firm not a decorator).

   Has the architect been hired?  If not, this could be your out as it would be a mistake to do anything before you meet with the firm and understand exactly what your role is to be in the design process.  If no firm has been hired I would simply tell the congregation that you are interested in bidding on the work but you can't do so until you meet with the project's architect.  I would also say that the congregation is a little out-of-sync if they're talking to millwork shops about pews before an architect has been hired.

   Edited 8/9/2005 11:37 am ET by BossCrunk

6. 
   papaterry | Aug 10, 2005 12:53am | #21

   The church does have an architect and I had assumed he would have to provide direct input.  I am aware of proper procedures as I have worked enough with local builders and architects.  I don't like to steal plans from manufactures but will certainly look at what has been built.  We do not have a large church but seating for 450 is still quite an undertaking.  I am not overly optimistic about this challenge but I did want to give it my best shot.  The church initially set aside $45,000 for pews which comes out to $100 a foot and without even beginning to price it, it seems very small.  I would have guessed more like $200 but again I haven't begun to price anything.

   I will save your notes.  Your time is most appreciated as I know you have a lot more to do than write to me.  Gratefully, Terry

   ps. I don't often communicate on this Knots thing so I don't know if your e-mail is separately listed.   In the event I have a specific question for you, could you provide me your e-mail.  I assure you I will honor your privacy.  Mine is, [email protected].

7. 
   Crunk | Aug 10, 2005 01:14am | #22

   Terry, that would be a tall order for a two-man shop but you've mentioned outsourcing some of the work.

   Don't hit another lick until you find out exactly who is supposed to do the design work.  I wouldn't hesitate one moment putting this in the architect's lap.

   We'll keep in touch as this moves along to see what happens.

   I would stress that the congregation be put on notice that the amount they've earmarked for the pews should be a very rough working number. 

   There is quite a brisk market for used, refinished pews I understand and ultimately the budget may push them in that direction.

   I'll leave you with this - you need some SERIOUS face time with the architect, not a casual meeting.

    

   Edited 8/9/2005 6:47 pm ET by BossCrunk

8. 
   jackplane | Aug 08, 2005 04:46pm | #14

   Probably best to visit area churches with a tape measure. As mentioned, pews are not designed to be comfortable, but to act as asetic supports for worship, at least in the Catholic tradition. Also bear in mind the epidemic of obesity when measuring old pews.

    I've currently bid on an altar and tabernacle for a Dominican group, we'll see... 

9. 
   papaterry | Aug 09, 2005 01:17am | #16

   Thanks.  I appreciate your note.

   Terry