I am very new to wood working and would like to get some tips or hints about glueing and clamping.
I seem to have the work always full of glue and fighting to get clamps on the piece. Not sure if I should be trying to make a jig for clamps and then assemble work? Is there a systematic approach?
Anything would be helpful.
Replies
Gluing is always slightly stressful for me, but a necessary part of the process. Always dry assemble everything that you plan to glue at one time to make certain the tennons or dowels fit, not too long, or too tight, etc.
James Krenov says a litle glue and lots of pressure. In assembling chairs or furniture pieces that come together leaving lots of inside corners and angles, I tend to use lighter amounts of glue, that also calls for a good joice of joinery technique so that it is not as fully dependent on the strength of the glue. Mortice and tennon are my favorite-and fairly easy with a mortising attachment I use with an end mill (common in the metal working business) to cut the slot as you move the bit back and forth into the wood. I have a couple INCA saws, one with the mortising attachment on the side. the tools you have often shape the way you work, including the gluing.
I like Gorilla glue, except it has a short shelf life so don't buy too big containers, more than you might use in 3-4 months. I have been using mostly Titebond II. It helps to use the cheap little paint brushes that you can buy in quantity-I try to wash out the glue when I can so get several uses -that helps to spread the glue quickly and evenly. I recently did some glue laminations and found that the plastic glue bottle with a roller mounted inthe lid assembly really helped cover the bigger surfaces quickly and quite evenly.
I always place at least a couple clamps right at hand and rough fitted for length to get and immediate hold and then add the additional pressure once the joints are together until sufficiently pressed. It is hard to have too many clamps.
I have Plano clamps for edge gluing-expensive but excellent for cluing panels you don't need to have the strength of dowels or tennons, such as panels for fram and panel doors. or fine work like music instrument sound board assembly.
When I have a complex glueup, I am not above asking my wife to assist-she has been real helpful on a number of occasions when two hands are not sufficient.
I said more than you asked for, but perhaps it will start some thoughts of your own, as in time that is what you will want to rely on. Experience, and the joy of seeing something in its assembled form is sufficient motivation to roll up your sleeves and do this potentialy messy chore.
Good luck.
Ted
So far, lots of great information. I believe Ted said that he's not above asking his wife for help, when a complex job requires an extra pair of hands. I agree... although I try to figure out a convenient, one-person way of gluing up, even for complex assemblies -- in order to save my relationship.
Why? Well, when gluing up, and the clock is ticking, I sometimes get stressed. (I'm sure I'm the only one, right?) Then my language skills decrease in inverse proportion to my ability to swear -- loudly and often. In other words, I start saying, "Can you grab that thing... the square thing... the one right there... no, not that one, that one.... G*% D*^%It, don't you speak English? Hurry, the (^*(+ing thing is starting to &*%(*ing set up... Oh, J%)#$^ C&*O%, it's going to get ruined.... Go, just go... I'll do it by myself!"
Well, sort of like that. I forget meditation, forget yoga, forget inner peace... and do major damage to the outer peace of my household... which usually requires an apology, buying dinner... well, you know the drill.
So, I've made a special effort to do one or two dry runs, choose my glues carefully, set all of my clamps and cauls and other materials EXACTLY where I need them -- in short, follow most of the preceding advice... say a short prayer recognizing that something will go wrong or surprise me and that I can handle it... and then breathe...
Can you tell? I love woodworking! :-)
DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
I know the feeling! Have started to develop a strong appreciation for those who glue up big cabinets, all nice and square, or projects with dozens of parts, again all nice and square.
I agree with the suggestions of going not-too-heavy on the glue, lots of clamps, and do a dry run. I decided after gluing up a prototype of my current project, which is not complicated, but requires absolute 90-degree corners, that it would be a good investment of time to make some corner clamping blocks. The attachment below will show the results. They are made from Baltic birch plywood, measuring about 8" down each leg, resemble the stealth bomber, dontcha think? Got the basic design from one of the mags.
I discovered that the sides, which are less than 3/4" thick, were not absolutely vertical, had to re-calibrate my tablesaw blade and trim them square. Every 1/8th of a degree counts in clamping, it seems.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the pics and information.
I agree. I have a tremendous appreciation for the complicated projects. Mine are extrememly simple but are more than a handful for me at this point. Live and learn.
I do have a question for you though. Do you like to clamp things on edge and then lay them flat/ or have them on their longest side first. I am trying to figure out a simple triage for glueing (if there is one).
Thanks again.
Cluster,
I'm not sure I understand your question..of course that won't stop me from answering....lol.
I have had a problem in the past with producing cockeyed cabinets. When I stand the finished piece up, one corner is higher than the others...sigh. I think I've solved that issue by using cauls on the bottom and top of the dado joints, corners like FG produced (although I did not go to lockheed martin for mine...lol) and not moving the piece around while assembing. So i think the answer to your question is, develop a glue up plan that keeps moving around until the glue sets up to a minimun. Hope this helps.
While we're waiting for some of the proven veterans to pitch in here, I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. First of all, maybe you could provide a couple of examples of specific projects that gave you trouble -- that would make it easier to provide help.
My projects to date have been pretty small and didn't take up much geography in my shop, so my technique is specific to them -- I lay them on their "backs" or "fronts" to glue up. For instance, I made a storage shelf a couple of weeks ago, 2' wide x 4' high x 5" deep, 3 shelves plus top and bottom. The shelves had to be a very specific distance apart. I assembled it by laying all the parts front-side down on my work table, dry-clamped the outer frame together, put the shelves in and marked their locations with pencil on the sides.
Then I fired up my Porter Cable compressor and got my brad gun ready (I know, I know, that's cheating, but this is specifically what I got the outfit for!). Armed with a square and my glue, I glued and bradded everything in place, starting with the outside frame, the middle shelf (for stability), and then the inbetween shelves. Had I not had the brad nailer, the pipe or Bessey clamps would have been lined up ready for action. There's still time, after getting all this together, to slide the back (1/4" plywood) underneath the clamps, get the final squaring done, and nail that into place.
This unit was then screwed together with some special fasteners I found at HD that I like for this kind of application. Not for fine furniture though.
I decided some time ago that the brad nailer outfit ($199 at Costco) was going to save me a ton of aggravation in the assembly line. The other equipment decision was with regard to clamps. Although I have a few pipe clamps from years past, I'm going directly to Bessey K's from here on out. Although they're expensive, stuff I've read on various forums indicate they'll be the ones I rely on for glue-ups and the pipe clamps will probably just hold up the shop walls.
Another item that seems indispensable for small cabinet-shaped glue ups is the band clamp. Nylon web, which forms a big loop, and has a ratchet-style tightener. I'm making a display case right now that's going to take some effort to get perfectly, perfectly square. The band clamp holds it all together but gives flexibility to wiggle it into square using the clamping blocks I made. I found that trying to use the blocks and hold the stock at the same time was pretty difficult.
Another "must" that I suspect a veteran will mention is the need for a flat assembly table. I've not got one yet, and headaches abound because of this. Soon, soon.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forest girl wrote: Another "must" that I suspect a veteran will mention is the need for a flat assembly table. I've not got one yet, and headaches abound because of this. Soon, soon.
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Yup, Jaime, a flat reference surface to assemble your projects on will do more for your glue ups than any other single thing you can do. Remember that cabinets, or boxes, or shelves, whatever, must be square in all 3 dimensions. Trying to hold a loose collection of parts together in 3 directions at once, while simultaneously applying clamps in the appropriate places, is impossible if the surface upon which the parts are resting is not absolutely flat.Happy woodworking!
--
Lee
With all the wonderful tools I've acquired lately, I'm beginning to run out of room in my little shop. I have this vision of a Melamine-covered torsion box affair that hangs up close to the ceiling until I need to assemble a case. Lower it down on top of my smaller work surface, prop a few legs under it 'til level, and glue away. I dunno, sounds silly now that I write it down.
I know some people use their tablesaws for assembly, but I get real grouchy if that tool is inaccessible.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If i'm gluing up something like a dresser where i use a clamp at every drawer divider, instead of separate cauls on each clamp that may dig into the work i tape or Quik-clamp a piece of lath where the clamps will bear--a continuous caul, with fewer pieces to keep under control and the lath provides more bearing with less chance of marring.
Jamie -
If you have absolutely no future use for your pipe clamps, bring them to the Knothead convention and I'll lighten your shop storage space by taking them off your hands. If I get time, I might even throw in a maple/ash handled mallet. Can't guarantee that it will be done by show time, though. My shop doesn't work to a very rigid schedule...
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
With the weight of clamps and the fact that they are somewhat a pain to use I've moved to another type of clamping system. I would say that 60% of my clamping need are at right angles and all that is needed is to hold the parts together for a short time. I've made use of the vacuum pump and made some 2" dis. "pucks" that are attached to a 3/4" thick plate of lexan that is "welded" to another plate.
Place one side of the project against the puck and pull a vacuum on that side of the fixture, apply the glue or what ever agent you are using and then place the other component in place and pull the vacuum on the other puck. Move around the project untill it is completed.
Although you do end up with a silly looking object with hoses running up and over to the manifold leading to the vacuum source it is much simplier, much lighter, and you are not having to reach for the other end of the clamp while holding the other side of the project together.
For the curved items in a project I try to use the bending form with vacuum to hold the curved parts and then attach other parts in the manor laid out above. After a while you will have quite a stock in fixtures that can be used over and over.
I know this is a simplified(?) post on this subject, but you get the idea- if not e-me and we will work together on a better version if you are intrested.
Later
Robert
I've put out a call specifically to the pros in the group to come and help us with this topic. Maybe they'll stop by tonight and give us some input.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
A pre-glue fit up(dry run) ahead of time helps alot.You can mask off areas to keep glue from spreading where you don't want it at that time. Pre-finishing always helps, specialy when it comes to solid wood frame&panel, mask off tenons when finishing, gather up all the items you'll need ahead of time. Keep a damp rag handy for small drips, but leave squeeze out to jell up a bit and take it off with a chisel or shave hook. This helps to prevent you from just wiping the glue farther into the wood. I use a lt of pipe clamps, and I've found that the little aluminum stands for them are great. If you are glueing edging on shelves, you can easily set up a little clamping jig. Use wax paper to keep clamping blocks from sticking to your work. Formica chips work well for that, too. I have holt melt glued 1/4" plywood pads to some of my longer pipe clamps, you don't have to reach and try to hold everthing together while you get a pad in there.
Try to break your glue ups into smaller sections. Instead of glueing up a whole table frame, glue the two end frames first, then connect them with a second glue up. It's easier to keep track of square this way.
Dave
I appreciate every bit of info. It seems everyone has something that I will keep in the back of my head.
Everything seems overwhelming at first, but I am sure I will get better at it.
If anyone else feels that they have more to offer I am all ears and eyes for it. Bring it on.
It looks like I have a great handful of mentors out there.
Best to all of you.
Corky
If you use white glue (plain old Elmers) it will give you more open time and will be just as strong when it drys. (That's acording to Marc Adams and one of his seminars I set through). He said he uses white glue for most of his work.
Just another beginner!
Dave, your post outlines most of the techniques I use: Dry assemble the project first to be certain everything fits; if the design of the piece allows for it, glue up segments as sub-assemblies; lay out all the clamps you anticipate needing and have the jaws set so they can be easily put in place and tightened with just a turn or two...speed is of the essence when gluing.
Another "trick" I use when gluing up bookcases or similar carcases is to set the basic "box" on its back as soon as the glue has been applied to all joints. I then use masking tape to hold a builders square so that it is positioned square to the outer edge of one of the sides and aligned along the top edge of one of the shelves...I then apply the pipe clamps to draw the joints snug, checking the free edge of the builders square for alignment (along the shelf) as I apply each clamp. If it begins to shift out of square, I loosen the clamp slightly and tap it one way or the other until it draws the assembly back into alignment...As a final check, I measure the diagonals (from top left corner to bottom right and then top right to bottom left.) If these dimensions aren't exactly equal, I gang up a couple of my pipe clamps to span the longest diagonal and tighten it until the box pulls into alignment...Then I go have a beer.
Usually what I do in the case of something like a bookcase, or just about anything with a face frame and rear panel is to reference the front of the case with the assembly table, secure the back panel in place to square the case, then flip it over, tape across the diagonals and tweak with a clamp if needed. I've never had much problem with boxes,etc. coming out square, because my machinery is kept well tuned. Every now and then though, I have to work for one.
can't remember if it's been mentioned or not but here are a couple of things i think about before gluing:
-Would a different type of glue make this job easier? though most of us probably use yellow or white glue, there are lots of other types out there. Some, like epoxy, may not cause joints to swell. (if you've glued a complicated piece with many mortise and tenons, yo know what I mean.) you can buy glues with different open times, even a slow-set yellow glue. There is also unibond, weldwood, etc. this is especially worth thinking about if you're gluing solo, like me. sometimes it takes five minutes or more just to spread all the glue.
-Do i need blocks or cauls? I like to tape mine in place when I do a dry run (DO A DRY RUN...) dry runs are the time to set your clampe to the right length, make sure they all work, etc. When the piece is dry clamped, wipe the inside corners with a little paste wax. Dried squeeze-out is then easily popped off with a chisel or plane blade, or you can use a damp brush with out fear of the water marking thins up.
-Using bowed cauls where possible is a great way to get away with fewer clamps. if you don't want to make bowed cauls, just tape or glue some thin, dense cardboard or scap stock to the center of your caul. You'll get pressure in the middle and at the ends where the clampsare.
- Remember when positioning your clamps that pressure leaves the clamp head at a 45 degree angle. by using thick cauls, you get a wider range of pressure from each clamp, again using fewer per glue up....
-Edge gluing thin pieces (under 3/8) canbe done very successfully using wedges, a couple of straight pieces of wood and some weights. It's hard to glue thin stuff with clamps without bowing.
I've bailed out in the middle of a couple big glue-ups. Not pleasant but better than having the piece come out looking like sh**. Adding more and more clamps will never make a bad joint get better....
Most important, relax...
>>"Adding more and more clamps will never make a bad joint get better.... " Man, I'm going to put that on a poster and hang it in my shop! I know there's gonna be a time when I think differently and will need to be reminded!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
yeah, i think it's one of those things (like don't chisel toward your hand) that you have to experience firsthand no matter how many times you've been told.
DOH!
Here's a reply that woodshaver post in the other thread:
Edited 10/11/2002 10:46:07 PM ET by forest_girl
David posted this link to an excellent FWW article on various clamping strategies. You have to have the free Adobe Acrobat reader to read the .pdf file. If you don't have it already, click here to go to their page.
Thanks Splintie for the tip on easily making the hyperlinks!! Cool!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm no pro and I'm no expert, but I've certainly made lots of mistakes over 30 years of wood working.
This is no system or order of assembly, just what I've found helps my glue ups.
I dry assemble every last piece at least once; I know how every thing goes together and have practiced once or twice. I put all the clamps and all the pieces of board for cauls and surface protection on the bench near where they'll be needed and rip off appropriate lengths of wax paper.
I don't get surprised by having to recut a side in the middle of gluing. I don't run out of clamps or need another caul. I've filled the glue bottle and set out paper towels to clean up the mess.
Then I glue up the assembly.
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