I realize that I should have invested in an air filtration system a long time ago but when comparing that new fancy tool against a boring AFS, you can guess which one gets funded first. Time has come to bite the bullet though.
Therefore, I am trying to figure out what type of AFS to get. I have read a lot of positive posts about the Jet AFS-1000. Obviously, the build-it-yourself option exists. Someone recently reminded me about systems like the “Oreck” or the “Fresh Air Machine” and I had to wonder if they could be used for WW. However, I have not found any WW posts related to these machines. Is it simply a matter that they are underpowered for the quantity of dust a shop will generate?
Any additional opinions of what to buy/build? Thanks everyone!
Replies
Do you have a Dust Collection System? That's much more important than a filter box. 'much better to get the bad stuff before it gets into the air in the first place.
I agree a DCS is also important to containing airborne particles. To answer your question, no I don't.However, a DCS does not have much effect when using hand-held tools, such as a router, or smaller tools that can be effectively contained by a DCS, such as a belt sander. I am using these types of tools more often and I am therefore more focused on the AFS at this time. I have plans on building my own DCS in the future (once I get my own shop - not stuffed into the garage).Z
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Air cleaners have a place in the wood shop but not for health reasons. Here are some thoughts on the subject of air cleaners and health. They run in the face of many users but I know of no one in the industrial health field who disagrees.
There are NO HEALTH BENEFITS to an air cleaner. Here in the US, OSHA agrees that they do not remove enough of the dust in a short enough period to have any significant health benefits. No manufacturer of air cleaners makes any health claims, nor does anyone in the health industry AFAIK. The only place I see health claims is in places like this and those are from folks who purchased them under the impression that they do have health benefits. "The filters get dirty, so they must be doing something" is the frequent justification. If the filters are getting dirty, SO ARE YOUR LUNGS. Fix or improve your dust collection.
Robert Witter, Chief Engineer at Oneida Air Systems says: "Overhead cleaners can only lower ambient dust levels AFTER the source of emission is shut down, and they take several hours to do this. This is why they are not used in industry."
In addition, most air cleaners are installed in a manner that places the operator directly in the air flow between the dust producing operation and the intake of the air cleaner. I don't know how many articles I have seen that say to install an overhead air filter "over the dust producing machine". This makes no sense and certainly not healthful. This placement guarantees that the operator's nose is between the dust producer and the air intake. At the very least, the air cleaner should be placed where exhaust is upstream of the operator and the dust producer is downstream of the operator.
While no one will argue that isolating your lungs from dust has healthful benefits, the only surefire way to do it is to either have very efficient dust collection at the source of the dust or to wear a properly fitted NIOSH (in the US) rated respirator. Rubber band dust masks do not meet NIOSH requirements.
In other words, air cleaners are great for cleaning up the shop air before you begin finishing. But, they have little value while dust is being produced.
The recent classification of wood dust as a carcinogen also reported that the biggest producer of dangerous wood dust was sanding operations. Particularly, using hand operated sanding machines and manual sanding. This being the case, the best investment is in a good, downdraft sanding table. They are easily built and double as an air cleaner if left running after you leave the shop.Howie.........
Howie,
Good points. I think alot of people don't realize how slowly these filters remove dust. They see a filter that processes XX cubic feet per minute, and figure their shop is YY cubic feet, so they think the shop air will be clean after YY/XX minutes.
Such is not the case. The output out of the filter immediately mixes with the unfiltered air still in the shop, so going forward, the filter is taking in some air that's already been processed. The effect is that there is a long distribution "tail" in the concentration of the dust that takes a long time to go away. And while the "tail" is there, your lungs are filtering the dust along with the filter system.
Regarding dust collection for portable tools, I have a 3HP Penn State cyclone with ductwork connected to stationary machines.
The layout also has 3 ports with caps. I bought a long hose from Bosch (10 ft?) to fit from the nearest port to the Bosch portable tools. This setup captures most of the dust. Most of the mid-to-high level tool vendors either provide or sell dust collection accessories.
Actually the tenon jig used on the Unisaw discharges the most dust to the shop air.
I had to bite the bullet and invest in DC a year or so back, and while it did set me back one good stationary machine's worth of cash, it is worth it. I have (in my basement shop) the JET of which you spoke, and the JDS fitration system. A world of difference. I disagree that the overhead systems do not do any good...in fact, it is impossible that they do not do any good. I think the correct statement should be, they aren't foolproof. When using dangerous woods, or creating a lot of dust, obviously, you should wear a mask. But to say that an overhead fitration system doesn't do any good, just doesn't make sense. Of course, you need to capture as much as possible at the source, and of course you are still breathing dust in if the filters are getting dirty, but if the air is "scrubbed" quickly, you are obviously going to be breathing less dust in, and less dust will go elsewehere in your home to be inhaled by unsuspecting kids and spouses. If you turn your car on in a closed garage, and stay in there for five minutes...it certainly will not do you any good, but if you stay in there for 30 minutes, you aren't coming out.Also, regarding dust collection of handheld machines, I picked up one of those stands at woodcraft. The Heavy Cast Iron base with the adjustable top part that looks like an old Trans Am hood scoop. (I did change the tightening knob, since it didn't tighted well). This thing works graet with the router, the bandsaw, the disc sander...all kinds of uses.
I am a physician, but a cardiologist, not a pulmonologist, nevertheless I think there are a few things worth stating:Dust collecors are useful in removing large chips and particulate matter, they are less effective against small particulates, that tend to recirculate in a Brownian motion type of pattern. Not all bags are efficient at preventing loss of these fine particulates. Why is this important? Because fine particulates are the easiest ones to inhale deeply into the lungs. Even if you have a very effective DC, even if you have done what Bill Pentz says, this problem can be mitigated but not completely overcome.I agree with HA re: filter systems. You may have the nose of a Bassett Hound FG, but don't bet your lungs on its accuracy.Some individuals are more at risk- those with preexisting lung diseases (e.g., emphysema and asthma), children, those with certain immune/genetic conditions, smokers, and those with other occupational health exposures. They should be particularly careful. But the rest of us don't get off the hook easily- there is still a risk- a risk that will depend on the type of wood and of dust, etc.So what do you do...?Wear a good mask (respirator). Get a good one, and have it fitted correctly. Compared to a Cyclone DC, it's cheap. It is uncomfortable but it works. I don't wear a mask every time I cut a board, but I always wear one when sanding or using the router or during any operation that generates significant dust. In fact, I try to do as much sanding as I can outside, on sawhorese in my driveway- and I wear a mask.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
It sure seems that overall, the opinion is divided between the benefits (or lack) of an air filter in the shop. I think we can all agree that collection at the source is a top concern and therefore a DC is of strong benefit. I certainly appreciate all the feedback on this topic. Thanks!
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
One last item to note is a side benefit, but a very good one for someone like myself who works in a garage shop and finishes there too.
That is that when you go to finish your projects, an ambient air cleaner will significantly reduce the amount of time you have to wait to avoid having a piece of finished work that feels like a piece of sandpaper itself. I've read that without disturbing a room, it takes anywhere from 12-48 hours for all the dust to settle out of the air.
I don't rely on my JDS to remove dust for health reasons, I use it to keep the garage more clean and assist w/ finishing.~Michael
Good point - Thanks Michael.
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Buy a square fan and put as many furnace filters on the intake of the fan as you wish, this will collect the dust and keep it out of the air and it's cheap
Edited 6/10/2006 3:09 am ET by pink1
Somebody else mentioned that to me and I think it's a great cheap way to start. It would at least give me an idea of the amount of dust I am breathing.Thx!
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
I did some research about 3 years ago on name-brand air filters, and came to the conclusion that the JDS systems were the best (compared to Jet, Delta, Grizzly, etc.). They seemed to have the least "leakage" of unfiltered air, and move more air when partially loaded-up than the other brands.
Got lucky and found a new-in-box JDS at an estate auction. I love it. My shop is 22' x 22'. I can really tell the difference between when it's running and when it isn't. Not visually, because the stuff it's pulling out is the really tiny stuff. My nose tells me the difference.
I disagree with Howie about there being no health benefits. Granted, you need to collect as much dust as possible at the source using a dust collector. And, even with a DC and an air scrubber, you need to wear respiratory protection when conditions dictate. But anything you can do to pull that tiny, tiny dust out of the air and capture it somewhere besides in your lungs is a good thing. If it settles out on the floor and on table/counter surfaces, it's just waiting there, ready to be stirred up and breathed in. Without an air filter, how the heck are you going to get it out of the shop? You can't vacuum every nook and crannie several times each day.
I have an extremely good sense of smell, proven over the years when selecting hay for horses and dectecting the slightenst hint of mold in the feed. I feel completely confident in saying that the air in my shop is significantly cleaner if I have that air filter running during and after using a sander or the router, the two operations that cause me the most dust problems. I locate the filter (or my work stand) where the intake will draw dust away from me while I work. It's right next to the table saw and router, on the ceiling.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/2/2006 11:18 pm by forestgirl
I agree with you forestgirl. We can only do the best that we can afford regarding dust collection. Any dust collection is better than none. I do more sanding out of doors in the warm weather. I have the Jet air filter and I have the Jet 1100 CK DC. That is the best that I can afford. I would love a cyclone, 8" inch jointer, larger shop, more money in the 401K, the house paid off, etc. And the list can go on and on. When it comes to dust control, do the best you can do, but do something!
Zomb,
Howard A, as ever, gives great advice: experience mediated via logic.
Here are a couple of additional thoughts.
Sanding with belt sanders is the greatest source of un-capturable dust. Most other sander types (except Festo perhaps) also let a signifcant proportion of dust into the air rather than into the dust extractor. Therefore, sand outside the shop, preferably when there's a wind blowing; and/or wear a full face +ve pressure mask like the Trend or similar, if the material is particularly suspect (MDF and some exotic woods).
Trust your nose and whenever you smell the wood or other material (MDF and ply smell too) get the mask on. Forest Girl makes a great point there.
Make sure that your dust suckers and filters have sufficient air movement to grab the dust and that their filtration deals with the fine stuff. If you can see it, it is actually less risk. Its the ultra fine stuff you can't see that will kill you, especially if its extra-nasty courtesy of formaldehide and other additives in engineered wood products. (MDF is the worst by far, according to various health authorities).
You know, those who recommend planes and scrapers as preferable to sanding machines have a point. But I still adore the Festo; and the Big Boy 800mm X 100mm platen belt sander is a very efficient wood shaper, I can vouch.
Lataxe, concerned about his ever-diminishing lifetime (and yours).
There is always the option of a downdraft table for sanding and other portable tools. And I wonder if anyone uses theirs as their ambient air cleaner/scrubber as well? I'd guess you would have to restrict it somewhat or perhaps make it so you could alter the opening and switch between table and scrubber. Just a thought; anyone done that?
The other option would be to make a small, portable hood to collect at least some of the dust from the hand tools. I worked in a lab that did asbestos analysis and each person did their work in an open-sided plexiglas box w/ a squirrel cage fan and HEPA filter. Obviously not as much dust, but a similar concept to capture at least some of the portable tool dust.
JH
I was talking with a friend who has built himself a large WW shed in which he's installed a huge 15 inch diameter fan. He is a bit paranoid about dust as his skin and nasal passages errupt if even the slightest amount of various wooddust types get near him.
He wears a +ve pressure face mask at all times but has the huge fan as a backup. He tends to use it May to October, as otherwise it causes large amounts of cold, wet winter air to enter his shed. The fan creates a quite a strong wind and when I stood upwind of him sanding with a belt sander, I could smell nothing of the white oak he was using.
He insists the fan doesn't cost a frtune in electricity because it is some sort of efficient blade. I admit a certain scepticism about this claim, as his fan does shift a HUGE amount of air (although it is very quiet). His shed is 25 ft X 16Ft X 10 ft to the pitched roof top and I can feel the fan-wind moving through it.
Still, it's a solution that seems to work, as there is no fine dust build-up evident on any of the surfaces in his shed.
My $.02. Take it or leave it. Everyone wants to buy an AFS because they get a lot ot marketing, and then they all complain that the fine dust is impossible to capture. I firmly beleive that if you purchase, and use, one of the better wet vacs with your sanders that you will notice one hell of an improvement in the fine dust issue. In my shop I popped for the Fein Turbo 3 vac initially because it doesn't SCREAM like my old Craftsman vac. Bought the 1 1/2 x 15' hose and velcroed a 12' ext cord to the hose to make it more convenient to use the builtin remote switch. To connect to most tools you will need a 5-1 rubber reducer. I have noticed a tremondous reduction in the amount of fine airborne dust in my place. I'm not saying to not buy the AFS, but rather spend your $$ for the appropiate equipment and catch the dust at the source. I beleive that you will be better served following my advice.
I have a AFS, and love it. I agree that controlling particles at the source is the 1st goal. That includes a downdraft table. But after all reasonable controls are in place, the addition of a AFS will still help. As mentioned earlier, particles can stay in the air for hours or even days. I run my AFS while I work and for 2 hrs after I leave the shop.( My Jet has a 2,4, and 8 hr timer) When I re-enter the shop the majority of airborn particles have been removed. (I assume, I have no scientific measuring system other than seeing the filter fill up.)
Edited 6/10/2006 2:57 pm ET by GRW
Howard Acheson, Forrest Girl, Dr. Glaucon and many others all make good points. Let me add a little more.
I was using the top rated cyclone and ducting with an upgraded fine filter, always wore my dual cartridge NIOSH approved dust mask when doing dusty work, and regularly used what was then the premiere rated ceiling mounted air cleaner. I love that air cleaner because it does good things for improving the quality of my painting and finishing. Making up my Christmas gifts using lots of very beautiful exotic woods I was extra careful because I knew a few of those woods were pretty toxic. In theory I should have been just fine, in practice I got to go to the hospital in 1999 and still am on very limited duty needing to wear an oxygen hose at night.
What I totally failed to understand about fine airborne wood dust would fill a book, and I guess it does on my Cyclone and Dust Collection Research web pages. But here is the short version.
There are two major dangers from wood dust. First, wood contains chemicals that trees use to protect themselves from predators and insects, plus builds up toxins as bacteria, molds, fungi, yeasts, and mildews break it down. Many of these chemicals are allergens, meaning with enough exposure over time we all develop sensitivities. Our reactions can vary from a stuffy nose and sore throat to very serious like my visit to the hospital. Please wear a good NIOSH approved fine filtered mask when making fine dust. I use and like the 3M 7500 series masks available at most home centers in different sizes to ensure a good fit. Frankly I knew most of this before I ever had a problem, which is why I put the big bucks into my dust collection.
The second problem from fine wood that I did not know about was not from the dust I was making while well protected by my mask, but the lingering dust that went right through my far too open filters I made last week, last month, and even six or more months ago. These lingering particles also create sensitivity reactions and cause other longer term problems.
The worst culprit is airborne fine wood dust particles. Wood dust particles smaller than about 30-microns, roughly one third the diameter of a human hair will stay airborne for quite a while. Our bodies do a pretty good job of filtering or clearing particles larger than about 10-microns. Dust sized about 10-microns and smaller is invisible without magnification, so the most dangerous dust is also invisible. Dust smaller than 2.5-microns causes so many long term health problems that these particles have their own name, PM 2.5. A Google search on “PM 2.5 health risks” shows over 6 million references, so this stuff is clearly unhealthy, but mostly long term. I understand particles sized 1-micron and smaller go from the lungs directly into our blood getting carried all over our bodies. Although even sanding only makes fairly large particles, this dust breaks down into ever finer particles and the airflows in our shops keep launching this stuff airborne. It takes six months or more for most fine dust to break down and dissipate.
Even thoroughly blowing out and cleaning my shop after ever major dusty operation failed to help because my shop vacuums, air cleaner, and even the so called “fine” bag on my cyclone were all dust stores turning these units into “dust pumps” every time I turned each on. Likewise, airflow from my tools and air compressor also stirred up this fine invisible dust that coated every surface in my shop. With three months of no woodworking, just turning on my cyclone during the medical air quality test I had run on my shop filled the air before doing any woodworking with enough fine dust my shop failed it medical air quality test with a little woodworing also exceeding OSHA limits. More following.
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Edited 6/13/2006 12:49 pm ET by BillPentz
>> I love that air cleaner because it does good things for improving the quality of my painting and finishing.
Probably its best use. It will go a long way toward creating a suspended dust free space.Howie.........
Continued..
Because this fine dust travels so readily in any shared air and is carried on our clothes, skin and hair, just going through the sealed door between my garage shop and home was enough to raise the particulate count in my home to unhealthy. Not only did I expose myself to this lingering dust, I also exposed my family and pets.
So my advice to beginning woodworkers is to work outside with a good mask on whenever possible. My daughter and I worked outside using my EZ-Smart guide system last fall to build her a desk for her college room never even having to use any of my large shop power tools. Never work in a basement or room that shares air with your home. Air cleaners are nice for finishing and keeping larger airborne dust down, but work far too slowly to protect your health. Dust collectors, even with fine filters really should go outside. The airflow from most cyclones should also be directed outside. Just like my so called fine filter, these filters rarely are as good as rated and soon self destruct anyway because the silica (glass) that trees use for strength soon cuts up the filter strands making them ineffective. Just a few minutes of sanding with my cyclone and air cleaner running with some of the best filters available pushed the airborne dust levels over allowable OSHA dust levels. Most dust collector filters get ruined far earlier by getting poked full of larger holes from sharp chips. Remember also about the lingering dust and always run an exhaust fan when you can and blow out your shop regularly to keep this stuff from building to dangerously unhealthy levels.
bill
Edited 6/13/2006 1:42 pm ET by BillPentz
Bill,
Thank you for taking the time to summarize your history, experience, and the situation. I have visited your site and found the wealth of information you have available to be quite helpful.At the current point, my shop fills up part of my garage, which is separated from the house with the standard sealed door. Other than eliminating dust before it becomes airborne, do you have any other suggestions about ridding myself of any dust before I enter my home? Short of building a decontamination room between the door and the garage, how would I minimize the amount of dust I am "tracking" inside?Thanks for your info and I wish you good health.
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Zombeerose <!----><!----><!---->
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"At the current point, my shop fills up part of my garage, which is separated from the house with the standard sealed door. Other than eliminating dust before it becomes airborne, do you have any other suggestions about ridding myself of any dust before I enter my home? Short of building a decontamination room between the door and the garage, how would I minimize the amount of dust I am "tracking" inside?"<!----><!---->
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<!---->Thanks for the kind words.<!---->
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The object is of course to enjoy your woodworking safely, not got crazy over fine dust. For normal woodworking I wear my regular shop apron and make sure it stays in the shop. I put on my mask when making fine dust unless working on cocobolo, rosewood, walnut, and some of the other more toxic woods. Then I prefer to work outside with just my normal apron and mask. If the weather makes that undoable, I wear a painter’s jumper, scarf, and hat that all stay in the garage. Also when doing dusty work I use a fan in the doorway that exhausts the air outside, plus open the big doors and blow the shop out after with either my air compressor or leaf blower.<!----><!---->
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Additionally, I still have my older Jet 1.5 hp dust collector modified with a very fine filter. It tends to come out when needed to help control dust storms and ensure collecting at the source. <!----><!---->
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In terms of collecting at the source, most tools require modification with better hoods and bigger ports, plus more airflow than most small dust collectors can supply. In many cases like my PC belt sander, miter saw, etc. they come with tiny ports. My solution there is to use a strong shop vacuum on the small port. I went with a Fein 18 gallon unit with upgraded filter, but most will work if you put on one of the finer filters.<!----><!---->
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Lastly, I have a good sized compressor that sits next to the side door to my shop. If I am covered in dust, I go outside and clear off the dust with an air spray before going into my home when working with the more toxic woods. <!----><!---->
Bill, interesting perspective. I set up my DC to just blow outside, in order to reduce the filtering backpressure, and to keep the fine stuff from being pumped back into the shop. When this comes up, some always comment that it is inefficent from a heating/cooling POV, but it sounds like that's a small price to pay in comparison to the health risks.
BarryO,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
The principal person who has been running around the different forums claiming that pumping the air outside will cause serious heating problems has been evicted from at least four fourms now. It was discovered that he was a paid shill for one of the cyclone vendors that sells cyclones with poor separation that they disguise by using open filters.
The reality is except in the coldest climates exhausting outside is not much of a problem if you change your heating over to the radiant type heaters. These pass their temperature via IR instead of through the air. I've used an inexpensive dish type radiant heater in my shop for years and am comfortable working even in below freezing temperatures. If the temperature drops even lower, I could flip a valve and run the air through the filters instead of exhausting outside. Conversely, when the temperature gets hot, I can likewise direct the air through the filters to preserve the cooled air. I mostly choose to just exhaust outside because I know the costs to keep the health up after hurting the lungs is so much more than a little discomfort or loss of heating that there is no comparison.
In terms of the filters, I recommend use of 0.5-micron or finer, plus some pretty careful monitoring as most do not change out their filters until far too late. The fine wood dust is full of silica better known as glass as trees use silica for strenght. This fine dust will quickly cut and tear its way through fine filters opening up even the thick felt bags fairly quickly, especially if we fail to clean them regularly. As our filters get dirty the air pressure rises. As that pressure rises it forces these fine particles more quickly through the filter and causes them to wearout quicker.
Anyhow, working outside and blowing the dusty air outside makes good sense in terms of health protection, especially when working with the more toxic woods.
best dust control I've heard of is to remove all the particles at the point where they're generated.. in practice, despite hook ups to shop vacs etc the end results are often far from impressive... have you thought about a down draft table..??
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
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