I found this article in about ’98, lost it and just found it again. Some very interesting observations that I’ve never seen anywhere else:
In a recent post my friend, Steve, made reference to my tests of doggie sprinkling on exterior finishes. I figure after almost a year of testing it is time to post some interesting discoveries.<!—-> <!—->
As a preface, allow me to set the stage. Almost daily there is a posting about clear, exterior finishes for doors, chairs, signs and such. Responses run the gamut from diehard marine finishes to apply a coat of primer and then paint. Each of these has a bit of a problem. Marine finishes are not always the easiest to find and it grieves me to think of a lovely oak, teak, mahogany, fir, redwood or similar nice wood door painted in mauve goop. <!—->
Bob from Fl inspired me with his continuing and accurate statements about the failings of a clear coat and the advantages of a good quality exterior paint. I decided after lots of reflection that he really was right but there was always the picture of mauve in my mind. Sooooooooo, how could one take advantage of his advice and yet capitalize on the beauty of a nice wood.<!—->
I began to reflect on the characteristics of paint. Now, comes the boredom. <!—->
There were several things I knew about paint. Exterior paints contain a mildewcide and a fungicide that a varnish does not. The best quality paints will contain a UV protectorant and trans-oxide pigments in very high percentages. Almost all paint is custom mixed by the store. The retailer maintains a large supply of base products that are used to achieve the desired color. There are generally 4 base products and the specific one for your paint is determined by your color choice. These base products are either named or numbered. They are named pastel, deep, tint and neutral. If numbered it is cleverly 1, 2, 3 and 4 with the exception of Olympic who numbers 1, 2, 3 and 5. Olympic is unaware that 4 comes before 5. Pastel and/or 1 is virtually a pure white and used for the lightest of colors. The others are slightly color altered from white and more translucent than pastel. These are used for succeedingly deeper colors. All of this comes to neutral, 4 and/or 5. These are clear and used for the darkest colors. In the can they are somewhat opaque but dry more or less clear. <!—->
Now comes the testing. I bought 4 oak exterior doors. Each door was given one coat of the same MinWax Stain. On 3 of the doors, I applied 2 coats of “base” to the 6 sides of each door (3 coats on the top and bottom edges). Each of these three doors had a different type of exterior neutral, 4 or 5 base. The fourth door was finished with a consumer “spar” varnish from my local friendly paint/hardware store. The bases for the 3 painted doors were an exterior semi-gloss acrylic, an exterior semi-gloss oilbased polyurethane floor paint and a semi-gloss oilbased trim and siding paint.<!—->
The doors were set up, slightly inclined, in mostly direct sunlight under a pecan tree in the backyard. My wife just loved that one. Daily, the sprinklers managed to hit the doors. The birds in the pecan tree used the doors for target practice. And, yes, the dogs did anoint the doors on a regular basis. My blonde Cocker, Zazu, was particularly enamored with the doors. Over the course of the test the doors experienced lots of Texas sunlight, rain and snow. The temperature went from below freezing to over 100. The advantage to the inclined position of the doors was the snow, ice, water from the sprinklers and the rain tended to collect in the raised panel areas. I feel these doors were subjected to far more severe environmental conditions than would be expected from normal use.<!—->
The results were interesting. The “spar” varnish looked fabulous but after about 2 weeks it began to develop small cracks. In rapid order the door began to turn black, started to mold and the smell was enough to knock a buzzard off of a manure wagon. The waterbased acrylic is milky in the can like a waterbased poly. It dried to a more or less water clear surface but was a bit cloudy. It tended to wash out the stain a bit. Over time it became cloudier and ultimately become almost white. But, it remained solid and protected the wood. The oil based bases are also a bit opaque in the can but dried to a clear finish that is almost identical to a spar varnish – they added an amber tone to the doors. Both the poly floor paint and the trim and siding paint remained “clear” over the entire test period.<!—->
The testing came to an end with a bit of encouragement. My wife said something clever like, “Get those damned doors out of the backyard?”. She does not understand science. The floor poly had some minor checking and a thinned coat of the same base over the surface made that disappear. The door with the oilbased trim and siding paint was perfect other than it had lost a bit of the gloss. <!—->
So, I am with Bob – paint the door. My preference is the oilbased products. If you are predisposed to a waterbased use an acrylic rather than latex. <!—->
One thing you will find when you go out shopping for your product is a lack of knowledge on the part of the salesperson. Not many of these folk are aware that their neutral or 4 base will dry clear. If you want to have some fun, spring it on them. They will suggest you are full of Donkey Dust. Ask them to shake a can and put some on a stir stick. Dry it and voila, it is clear. <!—->
Jim Kull
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Replies
And here was one more testimonial to the procedure....
My recollection is that Jim made this post back in July, 2002 (at least that is when I saved it on my computer). Prior to the complete explaination he would post bits of the same information. About a year and a month or two before this post (spring of '01) I was talking with Jim while driving to Virginia to assist my brother-in-law with some maintenance on their log home. One of the tasks on the schedule was to refinish their south facing, no overhang front door...again! It was at that time that Jim informed me of his "test". A couple of days later the door was stripped, sanded, and "painted" with Olympic brand exterior oil-based paint base #5. By my count that's coming up on five years.
Just before making this post I called my brother-in-law to see how the door is doing. The report is that the door looks as good as it did after we refinished it back in '01—it shows no
signs of cracking, yellowing, or any of the other common traits of Helmsman Spar Urethane in a similar high sun exposure; the builder recomended finish of choice before Jim's advice.
I have used a couple of other brands and find that all perform pretty much the same so long as you get the paint base used to mix the darkest colors. Testing, however, is always appropriate. I can also sympathize with lack of help you have
received from your local S&W dealer. As soon as you explain to the typical paint store employee what you intend to do the reaction is generally the same—"Oh, that won't work..." On one of my let's-have-some-fun-with-this-guy visits to a local Benjamin Moore dealer last summer I explained the concept to the salesman behind the counter. He assured me with great certainty that I was completely wrong (I getting accostum to
hearing that) and that what I proposed wouldn't work. I asked him to open a can of the appropriate base and just stick a wooden stir stick into the paint. When he withdrew the stick
he showed me with great pride how cloudy and milky it was. I told him to set it aside and I would return later. When I did his response changed; "OK, its clear; but, it still won't work—if you
don't add the pigment the paint won't stick right" (his words).
So, off to Lowe's with you, get the #5 base and have some fun...
Steve
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Interesting post, I have never heard of that. Guess I'll have to give it a try.
BTW, as I understand it, this applies to oil-base only.
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Alan,
I'm fascinated by what you are saying but also confused (happens easily to us Africans of Irish descent). If I understand you correctly, I should be asking my paint dealer for varnish comprising only element4/5 of the paint mix. Do I have it right?
Regards
As I understand it, you ask your paint supplier for a No 4 or 5 base, which is untinted. It's paint, just without the color added. Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
>>I should be asking my paint dealer for varnish comprising only element4/5 of the paint mixNo, you should be asking for exterior oil based tint base #4 (or #5 if you are getting Olympic paint. The stuff you want is what they put the tint in for the color you want--but you don't want any color.To add to the post, I know Jim fairly well and was one of the first to use the process. I have a door on a friend's house that is over 5 years old now and it's still in good condition. The Minwax Helmsman we applied on one panel failed in about 13 months, by failed, I mean that it grossly discolored and peeled off. It was to be expected as polyurethane containing finishes should never be used in high UV (exterior) applications.I have done two other doors including the one on my home in North Carolina. Both are holding up well.Be prepared for the paint store to tell you that it won't work and that the paint base is not clear. It's not clear directly from the can but dries clear. Have them dip a stirrer in and come back in six hours to see how it dried.Howie.........
Does it leave a film? Do you put on 2-4 successive coats to build a protective coating? Thanks.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Yes, it's a film finish. You should apply 3-4 brushed on coats. Sanding between coats is not required if you re-coat within a couple of hours of the finish becoming tack free.Howie.........
Howie, thanks for adding to this discussion. I've never used this finish, but remembered reading about it several years ago and have been looking for it again, for some time. When the situation arises, I'm going to use it.Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
So do you end up with is a clear coat that still shows the stained wood grain? I am building some wood (oak) frames for windows right now. The exterior will be aluminum clad. And the outer most glass is 1/4" fixed (don't open). A separate oak frame is to be made to frame a stained-leaded glass window and placed into the interior side of the window. In other words, the wood is not exposed to the direct elements other than sunlight and possibly some moisture. Would you suggest using your technic? Are you suggesting that the Helsman Spar will break down in short time? I am doing this for a church and would like my work to be long lasting.
Let's see if I can answer some of the questions.Rod: >>So do you end up with is a clear coat that still shows the stained wood grain?Yes, the finish is clear so the color shows through.AlbionWood:
>> 1. How does the appearance of the finish compare to a traditional varnish, in terms of clarity, luster, depth, smoothness? How about tactile effects - does it feel hard and smooth, or soft and sticky like spar?It's clear and I have seen no degradation in clarity up to five coats. After all, it's an outdoor finish--we're not talking furniture quality here. It dries hard.>> 2. Why isn't anyone marketing this stuff for this application? Seems to me the market for exterior clear finishes is pretty large - why aren't the paint mfrs pushing into it?I don't know. You'd have to ask them.Bleubassplyr:
>>because it would not provide UV protection and would have a cloudy and milky appearance when dry. The latter response being just what you predicted.Everything is in the base. The only ingredient in the tint is the color. The base contains the UV protectorent, the mildewcide and all the thinners and driers.>>Did you mention in your first post that floor poly performed well too? In essence aren't they the same thing?Aren't what the same thing? In the report, Jim said the oil based poly floor paint base he tested performed well. But, I would like to add that polyurethane generally does not do well in direct sunlight. Polyurethane degrades rapidly in UV situations and chips and fails. You will never find a true marine exterior varnish that contains polyurethane just for that reason. The "spar varnish" tested was Minwax Helmsman which is one of the poorest finishes you can purchase. Not only did it do poorly for Jim, at was the first finish to fail in Consumer Reports long term tests of exterior finishes.Howie.........
Howie, thanks for addressing my questions. I think this answers both:"After all, it's an outdoor finish--we're not talking furniture quality here."That's really what I was asking - is this a furniture-quality finish. The answer seems to be: No. Next question: Why not? What, specifically, makes this less than furniture quality?
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I wouldn't say it is not a "furniture quality finish", rather I have never used it on furniture. I've only used it on doors. But, for outdoor furniture, I would not be looking for the same quality of finish. It just doesn't make sense. Properly applied, it should be as good a finish as any oil based clear finish.Is it as good as a high quality marine exterior varnish from manufacturer of marine coating? I doubt it will have the same appearence but I have never compared the two.Would I use it on outdoor furniture? Absolutely.Howie.........
What is the best application for this finish? Can it be sprayed? Or do you suggest brushing? I have many wood window frames to build. Would you use this product for the exterior and or the interior of wood window frames?
As I have said, I have only used it on doors. I brushed it on. But, there is no reason that it couldn't be sprayed with the same caveats as when spraying any slow drying finish. It would have to be appropriately thinned with mineral spirits or other petroleum thinner. It could also be thinned and used as a wiping varnish for that matter. No reason not to treat it as any other oil based varnihsh finish.Just because we are discussing an exterior finish, there is no reason that it couldn't be used as an interior finish. For interior window trim it should work just fine. Polyurethane varnishes would not be appropriate for interior window trim use because of the high UV that would be present.Howie.........
Just because we are discussing an exterior finish, there is no reason that it couldn't be used as an interior finish. For interior window trim it should work just fine
Son's in laws in Colorado have a mountain log cabin and have been interested in this finish since I told them about it. They need to refiinsh/treat the interior of the cabin soon and have thought about using this.Gretchen
Couple of questions:
1. How does the appearance of the finish compare to a traditional varnish, in terms of clarity, luster, depth, smoothness? How about tactile effects - does it feel hard and smooth, or soft and sticky like spar?2. Why isn't anyone marketing this stuff for this application? Seems to me the market for exterior clear finishes is pretty large - why aren't the paint mfrs pushing into it?
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I went to Sherwin Williams today and had them open a can of their deep base oil based paint. It was more than milky in the can, almost beige. I told the person what I had in mind. I had her put some on a stick and guess what, it's drying clear. I guess my only question now is what makes this better than a high quality spar varnish?There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Let me start off by saying that spar varnish should only be used for what it is intended. Wooden spars on sailboats need to be able to bend and spar varnish was developed to be very flexible and soft so it maintains its integrety when the substrate flexes. Spar varnish has very little abrasions or imprinting resistance because of its softness and is not durable in an application where is will be subjected to abrasion or wear.If you want an exterior marine finish, you want an exterior marine varnish. It is much harder and durable and will stand up to much more abuse. It will be made from resins and oils that have inherent UV resistance and will have additional UV additives. Interior rated varnishes and poly varnishes are the best choice of all for furniture used indoors as they have more solids and generally are harder.That said, good marine exterior varnish is only available at marine suppliers or marinas. Manufacturers like Pettit, Wolsey, Interlux and Epafanes are the ones you want. It will not be cheap. You won't find a good marine finish in a big box.I have not compared the "clear exterior paint" to a good marine finish. It should perform somewhat similarly and be less expensive. I am not a fan of film finishes for outdoor furniture unless the furniture will be kept inside when not used or is fitted with a sun absorbing cover.Howie.........
Thanks for the information.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
smell was enough to knock a buzzard off of a manure wagon...
LOL That was the funniest thing I'v heard in A LONG TIME...
Ya made my day a happy one! I LOVE IT!
After reading yours and other posts I'm intrigued. I called my local paint store today and was told that in 25 years of selling Olympic they've never heard of a #5 oil based exterior paint base. He gave me the number of Olympic so I called. The person I spoke with told me this product is only sold at Lowe's. He advised me not to use the #5 base for this application because it would not provide UV protection and would have a cloudy and milky appearance when dry. The latter response being just what you predicted.
Did you mention in your first post that floor poly performed well too? In essence aren't they the same thing?
In the not too distant future I want to build a Walnut exterior door and I want to be ready with the best finish. Thanks in advance.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
>....his response changed; "OK, its clear; but, it still won't work. If you
don't add the pigment the paint won't stick right" <.
Actually, given that for some people humility is never an option, that was probably his best shot at a recovery : ) I had a very similar Benjamin Moore experience just yesterday, after I politely insisted that DAP "33" glazing could be tinted just like paint- it just needs a longer time on the mixer. The manager said it wouldn't work, but finally tried it just to shut me up (of course, I had to buy the can first) When he opened the lid fifteen minutes later to reveal a smooth custom color glaze, his mouth literally fell open. But his comeback was quick: "yeah," he said, as if he had been expecting this result, "but we don't like to do it, because the glaze is too thick and it's hard on the shaker" ... I didn't bother to point out that while a mixer might have struggled, a shaker doesn't know the difference between a quart of milk or a quart of peanut butter.
BTW, I needed the glaze to match the tone of a custom window sash I was planning to seal with varnish. Now I'm considering the "number four" paint solution. I'm wondering - since (color) coverage will not be an issue, would there not be an advantage to applying one or two thinned down coats prior to a full strength topcoat? This might give it the penetrating protection of a wipe-on oil finish with the sealing, sheen and durability of normal oil paint.
p.s. BMoore is still the best paint I've worked with.
The binder in oil-base paint is varnish. And it's the pigments that provide the UV protection. So a deep paint base without any pigments added is the same as using a regular varnish (with some extenders and mildewcide in it).
If this paint base was the "magic bullet" for exterior clear coating that companies have spent millions of dollars trying to develop, you can bet they'd be selling it for that application and at a premium price.
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