I’m about to jump into real dust collection and seriously hesitate between Oneida 3HP and Clear Vue cyclones. I’d like to hear comments from real owners of these units (not only from Mr Pentz disciples, I am one myself), particularly about shipping to Canada (Québec).
Clear Vue is less expensive to buy and way less expensive to ship. The desing seems to make sense to my untrained eye. I lean towards this one but still feel somehow incomfortable being the ”first” to try something. Is the company reputable? How about service? Does it actually work as advertised or does it just make sense in the theory?
I know FWW is supposed to be using/studying one at the moment but I’m ready to buy now. Maybe someone here knows when we will see something about it in the mag?
Thank you.
Fred
Replies
Oneida user here. Great unit, five years, 3hp, no problems. Oneida has EXCELLENT support. They will design the system for you, if you give them the shop layout and provide you with a complete package. Very happy.
John
I'm real close to buying a ClearVue myself. There's a fair number of CV owners that have posted very positive comments on the CV on the SMC forum. You might want to do a search on their site. I don't have any first hand knowledge on them yet other than very positive impressions of their customer service. I spoke with them a week ago and they're helping me with lots of advice on a very non-typical install into my shop (garage) rafter area.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/index.php
If you build it he will come.
I have an Oneida and find it works well. FYI, Wellbeck Sawmill carries Oneida in Canada. They are about an hour an a half northwest of Toronto. Have you contacted them about shipping? The Clear Vue seems to be more of a kit than a cyclone - it seems you need to add the filter, along with whatever else you need to connect to the filter.
The clear thing would probably be real cool, but I'm not convinced a plastic unit would stand up to all the shock, vibration, etc., over time.
Fred,
I bought the ClearVue and am installing it in my shop right now. I only have the filter left to install, and since my installation is a bit unorthodox (I can explain if necessary), it is taking longer than usual. I have only the filter left to install, so it should be fully operational by the end of this weekend, if I can lay off the golf for a few days.
I am sure you know that ClearVue users are a small community. So far, I have not heard any negative comments from users. They support ClearVue's and Pentz's claims. Durability is as good or better than the competition.
If you buy an Oneida, a Grizzly, or a ClearVue, you are taking some degree of risk. I would trust the only voice that has been honest to hobbiest woodworkers, and that is Bill Pentz. IMHO
Todd
Thank you.
I've made up my mind. I'm gonna buy Clear Vue. All I need to know now is when. (You know, april 31 is income tax day here in Canada!) Maybe may first, hopefully...
What does ''unorthodox'' mean to you? I have low ceilings (86'') and I figured I'll install the filters side by side as someone did on their photo gallery. Bu it does not leave much space for a drum. Maybe you can tell me what kind of setup you have done.
One more thing. What size of wire is safe for running 220V current to a 5HP motor rated for 20 Amps? I have a circuit with 14/2 wire available but I wonder if it is going to be big enough.
Fred
Check with ClearVue and ask if the cyclone can be mounted at an angle from vertical to gain height at the drum end. Eg: 6 feet leaning at 45 degrees takes up about 4-1/4 feet in the vertical dimension. A gain of 1-3/4 feet. You can figure the actual gain for the ClearVue from their specs.I don't think this would have an adverse effect on the cyclone's performance but ClearVue could confirm it for you by tilting one of theirs over incrementally and watching the dust action in the cyclone. About the only company that can. It would require some extra work to mount it on your part but you would gain the room for a bigger drum/box for the dust. The filters could be mounted partially under the cyclone to minimize the loss of floor space.Mention to them if they incorporate my idea into their production (a swivel mount for instance), they just owe me a cyclone. ;-)
According to Ed at CV mounting at an angle is no problem. Here's a sketch he sent me re: trying to stuff the business end of their DC in my garage rafter area. I'm working on setting one up with the collection drum on a mobile dolly. The plan is to roll the bin under the cyclone and hook up the duct to the bin plus the intake ducting with quick connects that terminate at the rafters. He also recommended the side-by-side filter setup on their website for my cramped space application as well.
Editted:
I forgot to mention. Apparently the cyclone unit will actually work laying completely on it's side with no difference in effectiveness. The only problem is that if there's any larger pieces they wont fall thru to the bin without a gravity assist provided by the angled mounting.
If you build it he will come.
Edited 4/17/2006 8:07 am ET by douglas2cats
If you are not going to build it yourself, get the Clearvue.The Clearvue is the only cyclone that is designed with Mr. Pentz's figures.ALL of the other ones out there are modified agricultural cyclones, why is that a big deal? well the Agi cyclone is DESIGNED from the get go to blow the fine particles, the chaff, in the case of wheat, out the top of the cyclone, and deposit only the heavy stuff, the wheat, in the bin at the bottom. Works a treat for that application, but not for wood working. In fact, a lot of the industrial shop's cyclones do this as well, they are usually outside (easier to empty and less of a fire problem) and they just blow the super fine dust out the top, no filter.If you want a cyclone that works at taking next to all the fine dust out of the air stream, so the filters do not have to, then you want to build the Pentz cyclone, or buy the Clearvue, which is a Pentz design, besides that, how cool is it to see the cyclone working :DYou can see my cyclone pages at....http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/cyclone.htmCheers!
I've already decided to get the ClearVue. Other than the fact that it looks to be the most alterable of the available setups - and able to fit into my rafters easily - it's also the smallest footprint weight-wise due to the plastic. That was another major concern in trying to put a cyclone overhead. What's been delaying my purchase so far isn't which cyclone, it's how I rig up the quick connect setup from the rafters down for the input/output ducting. At this point though I think it might be best to go ahead and get the CV. It's a bit tough to make hookup decisions without the unit already in place. I'd been putting it off in case it meant I needed other pieces from CV and only wanted to pay freight once.If you build it he will come.
You are smart to think it all through, that way you will have less running around to do after.I built my from scratch, so I had a ton of "Well how do I do this....??" kind of problems, add into that the language barrier, and well, it was sure fun.... ;)Cheers!
Stu.. Not a fair statement to make that all the others are designed for agricultural purposes and modified. There are a multitude of cyclone manufacturers out there that cater to the woodworking industry. I have a Torrit cyclone and they manufacturer cyclones for any purpose that you can imagine. I have great respect for Mr Pentz but I am sure there are many people that are equally qualified and some more qualified than Mr Pentz to design cyclones. Mr Pentz has put it at a level the hobbyist can understand. One thing that is just as important as the cyclone is your filter material if you want to trap the fine particals. If you fail to purchase the proper filter you re waisting your money on a cyclone, may as well buy a cyclone garbage can lid.Just my thoughts
Brian
Brian, not wanting to get into an argument with you here, but the other Hobbyist cyclones on the market are just tweaked agi units, you can do the math and measure them yourself and figure it out.Mr. Pentz is the only one with no horse in the race, thus I see him as a fair and respected person to make observations.Fact is, I built a Pentz cyclone, I've put over 2000 liters of sawdust through it, and I've cleaned less than half a teaspoon worth of fine dust out of the filter stack.I use two Donaldson Torit P527080-461-436 filters, they work very well and will last a very long time with my cyclone, as I'm not constantly cleaning my filters, like so many others are with their Agi designed units have to.Anyway, it is all sawdust in the end.Cheers!
Stu.. Thanks for your response and the fact that you and I may differ in our opinions is quite normal, it would be a quite boring world if we all thought alike. Take care and have a good one.
Brian
Well thank you Brian for being such a gentleman.I want to be clear here, you Torit system is not what I was talking about, I'm talking about the hobbyist level stuff, I've looked at all the specs for them and I've had a number of discussions online at various places and with various people who have these systems. I've come to my opinion on the fact that in nearly a year of fairly constant use (for a hobbyist) I've not had to clean my filters, where others with the Hobbyist units clean their filters all the time.Again, thank you very much for your level responses.Cheers!
Brian,Pentz has put a lot of time and energy in researching both industrial and hobbiest dust collection. He has shown that "the huge cyclones we see outside of almost every large commercial woodworking facility are agricultural cyclones", and that "small shop dust cyclones, often called hobbyist cyclones are almost all down scaled versions of the same outdoor commercial cyclones that are inappropriate for indoor use".The fact that there are multiple cyclone manufactures is not evidence that their designs are efficient or even work as advertised. The fact is that there are no standards for hobbiest dust collects, so manufacturers are free to make what ever claims they like.To my knowledge, Pentz's qualifications in dust collection designed are unmatched. The body of work he has assembled is worthy of a Ph.D. dissertation, which qualifies him as an expert in the field. If there are other experts, they have yet to show themselves to our community of hobbiest woodworkers. If these "experts" are working for Onieda, or Grizzly, or any other hobbiest DC manufacturer, then you will have to take the leap of faith that these companies have suddenly decided not to mislead their customers, as they have done for so long. I am skeptical.Pentz has done more than "put it at a level the hobbyist can understand" as you put it. He is the ONLY honest and comprehensive source for cyclone dust collection science. He backs up every claim he makes with hard evidence and analytical theory proven through experimentation.I totally agree about the filter material. ClearVue recommends two Wynn filters that provide 600 sqft of surface area at 99.99 % efficiency to 0.5 micron. Onieda and Grizzly don't even come close to this.Please don't take offense as I am confident you would agree that, if one's opinion is based on evidence through research (Stu is only quoting Pentz), and anothers is based on "there are a multitude of cyclone manufacturers out there that cater to the woodworking industry""Torrit ... manufactur[s] cyclones for any purpose that you can imagine""I am sure there are many people that are equally ... and some more qualified than Mr Pentz"then they are hardly of equal weight.Todd
I honestly don't understand why dust collection has become such a religious matter for people.
Pentz has an interesting site and has done interesting work. Oneida, Grizzly, etc., are not part of some pro-dust conspiracy, they are simply meeting a market need by offering products which, to a greater or lesser extent perform as advertized.
People get hysterical about the amount of dust that ends up in a particular filter, and then (more likely than not) switch on a sander which dumps an awful lot more uncollected dust into the atmosphere than they realize.
I swear, every time anybody talks dust collection, it degrades into some form of hero worship for Pentz. He seems like a good guy, and I'm sure his things work well, but you are, in most cases, splitting hairs about dust collection: use a table saw and a fair bit of the dust comes out the various slots and openings in the cabinet (even if you've tried to seal them as I have) and a ton comes out on top of the blade - probably more than ends up in the filter, in any event. Same goes for planers, jointers, and so on.
I bought an Oneida, no doubt because I wanted to be a unpaid shill for the pro-dust conspiracy. It works good. Maybe it works better or worse than something else that I could have bought but thats life. I have drums of sawdust its collected and the filter is still clean. I still have dust on the floor, however because no dust collection system is going to grab all particles of wood traveling at the high velocities created by the vortex of a power cutting tool, unless its also strong enough to suck me down the pipe too.
Seriously, we are taking about machines that in the ideal environment will pick up most (but never all) of the dust flung by the machines to begin with. Unless we operate those machines inside plastic bubbles, a fair bit of dust is never going to see the inside of a dust collector in any event so what does it matter whether or not a particular cyclone separates 99.5%, 99.9%, or 99.999% of the dust it picks up?
Lighten up!
Piccioni
(certified promoter of horrifically innefficient dust collection since 2005)
PiccioniYou ask me to lighten up, while at the same time characterize me (and others) as "hysterical" and "religious" Pentz "worshipers". My arguments are pointed, reasonable, and not meant to offend. I have not gotten personal.I honestly don't understand why dust collection has become such a religious matter for people.Religion has nothing to do with this discussion. I have no comment on past discussions unless you have a specific example.Oneida, Grizzly, etc., are not part of some pro-dust conspiracy, they are simply meeting a market need by offering products which, to a greater or lesser extent perform as advertised.You are simply ignoring the evidence if you believe that their dust collectors perform as advertised and that they have not purposely mislead customers.People get hysterical about the amount of dust that ends up in a particular filter, and then (more likely than not) switch on a sander which dumps an awful lot more uncollected dust into the atmosphere than they realize.I find it impossible to comment on this statement without being offensive. Is this how you see all woodworkers, or just the ones who advocate healthy dust control?I swear, every time anybody talks dust collection, it degrades into some form of hero worship for Pentz.Citing a knowledgeable expert is not worship. Its called analytical argument backed up by facts. Anything else is opinion, which has value but is not on equal footing. There are also those, that when confronted by strong arguments, throw out personal attacks, labels, and declarations based on shaky assumptions.He seems like a good guy, and I'm sure his things work well, but you are, in most cases, splitting hairs about dust collection: use a table saw and a fair bit of the dust comes out the various slots and openings in the cabinet (even if you've tried to seal them as I have) and a ton comes out on top of the blade - probably more than ends up in the filter, in any event. Same goes for planers, jointers, and so on. I bought an Oneida, no doubt because I wanted to be a unpaid shill for the pro-dust conspiracy. It works good. Maybe it works better or worse than something else that I could have bought but thats life. I have drums of sawdust its collected and the filter is still clean. I still have dust on the floor, however because no dust collection system is going to grab all particles of wood traveling at the high velocities created by the vortex of a power cutting tool, unless its also strong enough to suck me down the pipe too.Seriously, we are taking about machines that in the ideal environment will pick up most (but never all) of the dust flung by the machines to begin with. Unless we operate those machines inside plastic bubbles, a fair bit of dust is never going to see the inside of a dust collector in any event so what does it matter whether or not a particular cyclone separates 99.5%, 99.9%, or 99.999% of the dust it picks up?I gather from this that your position is that what ever you do, there is going to be dust in the air and that there may be some, but little difference between your Onieda (or any other DC) and the ClearVue design by Pentz. Your thought arguments concerning machines in a bubble and the "vortex" of power cutting tools does not out way the mass of evidence that shows what is good dust collection and what is not.Todd
Well.
QED
QED
Nicely done.
I second that.
Brian
Hi Folks,I have had a $800 drum mounted collector for 15 years that has never worked worth a darn. I would give it to my son, except that I like him.
I just want to be able to work without sinuses acting up and coughing dust for the next day. I dont think the commercial outfits have a conspiracy going, but I just bought a clearvue for a couple of reasons.
Bill Pentz clearly is a man with a mission and has contributed immensely to making some sense of air engineering. I also have to root for a small company like the clearvue company doing the american dream thing. Lastly the performance just seemed better and cheaper than the rest. I have talked to both PSI and Oneida and they seem to be good companies from what i can tell.
Will post how it works when I get it in.
thanks,Stevo
you make me laugh because your SOOOOOOOOOOOO right. if you want your dust filtered out that much, quit wood working.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
I propose to be right. I simply profess a position that is defensible. I am not one to go back and forth all day long with thought experiments and narrow personal experiences, the value of which is indeterminate. If you prefer the latter and find my style to be a little strong, then grow some skin.Labels, personal attacks, condescending characterizations, mocking. Shallow thinkers all.Todd
Sir
To assume from a post that somebody is a shallow thinker, or engages in thought experiments is imprudent to say the least.
You may disagree with the fact that dust collection is a system: there is a machine labeled a 'dust collector' but every blast gate, and, most mportantly, every power tool attached to it, is as significant a contributor to the problem if not more so than the collector itself.
So, its all very well and good to read reviews of dust collectors where people shovel dust into a directly connected corrugate pipe, that that is a pointless exercise from the perspective of practical utility. The objective reality of the situation is that every time a tool cuts wood it makes dust. On a well designed piece of machinery, probably 99% of the dust will be sucked out by a dust collector. That means that your machinery is going to inject far more dust into the air than any dust collector is going to miss. If it makes you feel good that 99.99% of a certain type of dust which gets sucks up is adaquately filtered, then be happy, even though 1000 times that amount is pouring our of the blade height adjustment opening in your table saw.
The problem with engineering problems is that most people focus on the one thing they chose to try and understand, or the part they measure, not the system in which it operates. This is a common mistake, and it makes for enjoyable banter about various specifications, and their comparative merits.
At the end of the day, as was noted above, if you don't want dust, don't do woodworking. Most dust collectors, if matched to the task (i.e. size and nature of the machine) will take you 99% of the way. Fell free to differ.
But please, jst because somebody posts on a website, don't assume they lack an education or knowledge of the subject.
Piccioni,
To assume from a post that somebody is a shallow thinker, or engages in thought experiments is imprudent to say the least. One who resorts to labels, personal attacks, condescending characterizations, and mocking, makes little use of brain power. This is emotionally charged verbiage used to denigrate the messenger, and therefore characterize the message as not worth consideration. I believe my analysis in that regard to be prudent.Thought experiments and narrow personal experiences are another matter. As I said previously, I believe them to have value, just not on equal footing with true science.You may disagree with the fact that dust collection is a system: there is a machine labeled a 'dust collector' but every blast gate, and, most mportantly, every power tool attached to it, is as significant a contributor to the problem if not more so than the collector itself.So, its all very well and good to read reviews of dust collectors where people shovel dust into a directly connected corrugate pipe, that that is a pointless exercise from the perspective of practical utility. The objective reality of the situation is that every time a tool cuts wood it makes dust. On a well designed piece of machinery, probably 99% of the dust will be sucked out by a dust collector. That means that your machinery is going to inject far more dust into the air than any dust collector is going to miss. If it makes you feel good that 99.99% of a certain type of dust which gets sucks up is adaquately filtered, then be happy, even though 1000 times that amount is pouring our of the blade height adjustment opening in your table saw.Your "thought experiment" concerning what is collected and what is not collected is incomplete and I am not going to argue with you over it. If you read Pentz's work, you would know that collecting the dust at the source is one of his most adamant beliefs and he addresses those needs carefully. The problem with engineering problems is that most people focus on the one thing they chose to try and understand, or the part they measure, not the system in which it operates. This is a common mistake, and it makes for enjoyable banter about various specifications, and their comparative merits. I agree, and that is what makes the thorough investigation by Pentz so valuable. I don't think anyone who has read his work would characterize it as narrow in focus.At the end of the day, as was noted above, if you don't want dust, don't do woodworking. Most dust collectors, if matched to the task (i.e. size and nature of the machine) will take you 99% of the way. Fell free to differ.I will. Your conclusion is simplistic and ignores the science available to you. If that is OK with you, I am not going to try to convince you otherwise. However, if someone comes to the forum looking for accurate advice on dust collection, I would suggest to you that you allow me to relay whatever knowledge I have gleaned. You can point me out as being to serious, and I will point you out as being simplistic. Lets leave the denigrating labels to the fascists.But please, jst because somebody posts on a website, don't assume they lack an education or knowledge of the subject. I have assumed nothing of the kind, and never stated as such. I find it odd that what seems to be admired here is name calling, and what is attacked is considerate thought. It is disheartening.I can't imagine that I have anything left to say on this matter.Todd
"<<I honestly don't understand why dust collection has become such a religious matter for people.">>Amen. Can I get a witmess...Seriously, you make excellent points, with humor and balance. Now it is time for the zealots to cut you into tiny pieces.May the force be with you...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
very cool!Tell me, what's the plastic piping you're using and what kind of shop sells it? I haven't been able to find 6" plastic piping for running DC conduit and metal isn't in the budget.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions about the cyclone working on the incline. After all tornados don't seem to have any problem picking up mobile homes, and their funnels are not perpendicular to the ground.Looking at the sketch got me wondering if you considered positioning the cyclone such that the end of the cone was at the soffit? Then the chip bin/barrel could be on the outside of the shop.
Unfortunately the highest available space is right at the center of the garage so I'm a long way from an outside wall. By the time a quick-connect ducting or flex hose pigtail is added on I'll actually end up protruding beneath the rafters a few inches, but not enough that I can't park a vehicle inside once the bin & output duct are unhooked. Knocking holes thru the cinder block walls isn't really an option at this point either unless I decide to buy the house instead of rent. But that just aint in the cards right now. If/when that happens I'd probably knock the whole back wall out anyway and put a real shop in, where having to stuff the DC into the rafters wouldn't have been necessary in the first place. According to Ed at ClearVue I'll be the beta tester for this setup since they only recently determined that the orientation didn't have to be vertical. Apparently they discovered it by accident while doing some testing and then decided to pursue it with more research and testing.If you build it he will come.
One way to figure is to add 25% to the full load rating on the motor plate. 20A + 25% = 25A. I also have a 5 HP motor (in a table saw). I couldn't find 25A breakers, so I had to use 30A breakers; if your breaker is 30A your wiring and receptacle has to handle 30A, therefore I did the circuit for 30A. This meant 10/2 (+ground), with a NEMA 6-30 receptacle.
This method is wrong if you don't consider the table saw an appliance, in which case there's a chart in the NEC that you use for motors. Turns out, for a 5 HP saw, you come out the same anyway: 30A circuit.
So, sorry to say, that 14/2 is going to be woefully inadequate. If you put a big enough breaker on it to let your machine do its stuff, you're subjecting that 14/2 to way too much current.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Thank you.
I'll re-wire the circuit with 10/2 and upgrade the braker.
Fred
I think in his post that he had a 5 HP, 20 amp motor. Sounds to me that the motor is overrated and that the 20 amp is a more accurate requirement of electrical power. If this is true it would be less requirement that you were thinking but still to much for a #14 wire.
Fred,
Unorthodox: My installation is unorthodox because I have a second story shop, above the garage. I am installing the cyclone and all of the 6 inch PVC ducting bellow the floor. The cyclone output is then ducted back up, into the shop where I have the filters mounted. This setup has not ideal for efficiency since it requires a couple of more bends, and at times I have to use sharp 90 degree turns as to not interfere with the garage door opening. A sharp 90 degree turn is about equivalent to 15 feet of straight pipe. Anyway, since I have a small shop (20'x20') and the ClearVue has a 5 hp motor, I can get away with it. I would be less enthused with this setup, if I had a 3 hp.
Ceiling height: Your 86 inch ceiling is a challenge, but I would make it work as the benefits of the ClearVue cyclone are worth the hassle. You can mount the filters horizontally, if you have the wall space. Just have them make you a straight transition instead of a 90 degree. They did it for me at no extra charge. Is your ceiling height drywall? Can you cut into it to gain extra height? You may have a short drum, but you could make it wider.
I am amazed that you can mount the cyclone at any angle. This is not intuitive. It just goes to show that you can can argue back and forth with "thought experiments" all day long with no gain in actual knowledge (this happens a lot on this site). Independent testing is the gold standard.
Wiring: John D has it right for wiring. You need a 30 amp breaker and 10 gauge wire (assuming your motor is not a great distance from your breaker). Also, you need contacts and a switch. Instructions are at the bottom of:http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Install.htmlIf you want to save money, you can buy the contacts and switch separately, along with an electrical box to mount them in, and then wire it all up yourself. I found an easy solution that required a little more cash. Grizzly sells a 5 hp cyclone with about the same amp rating:http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0442http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/partslists/G0442_pl.pdfIn the parts list reference 3 and 4, you can find the Remote Mag Switch P0442003 and Remote Controller P0442004. Thus for about $125, you get the contacts, the switch (magnetic), a timer, a remote, and added overload protection. Wiring this up is straightforward. Note: The remote works with infra-red, not RF, so you need to be in sight of the switch. I have looked for other remote switches for DC systems, but could not find one that works at 5 hp.
Todd
Mounting the filters horizontally? How about cleaning them? It seems that the dust would never settle anywhere else than back in the filters? Or maybe you use the vacuum cleaner in the bottom while you blow air from the outside?
About the switch. I currently use a standard wall switch mounted to the (low) ceiling in the center of the (small) shop. Would this mean I'd have to connect my 14/2 directly to the motor, with no more fuss?
Your shop is about the same size as mine. How many 90 degres corners did you use in the lines? Do you plan on measuring airflow when setup is completed? I'd love to have your datas.
The more I read, the more it seems clear to me that Clear Vue is the way to go...
Fred
Fred,For the filter, I will install a clean-out at one end, and then blow compressed air through the filter while the system is running. The cyclone will provide plenty of forced air such that the dust doesn't settle back on the filters. I suppose a vacuum would perform the same function.A standard wall switch and 14/2 wire are not going to handle the amps. Forget the 14/2 and wall switch. When using 230 volts and 20 amps, you have to beef up your system. A 30 amp breaker, 10/2 (+ground) gauge wire, relay contacts, a switch, a proper electrical box. With the ClearVue, all you get is the motor. You need to wire your shop for the 30 amp circuit, and you need to install the proper switching unit. The Grizzly switch is the best solution for a do-it-yourself job, because it is straightforward, has safety features (magnetic switch, overload protection), and uses a remote. The simplest solution is to hire an electrician to do it for you, but that is the most expensive option.The ducting depends on the machine and I only use 90's if I have to. For instance, the bandsaw has five 45 degree bends and one 90 to reach the machine. The CSMS has two 45 degree bends. The TS has seven 45's to reach the cabinet, but more to get to the overarm guard. I avoid flex hose like the plague. I don't plan on testing. Pentz has already done the research and published his findings, so I know exactly what to expect.Todd
Since the subject of mounting of horizontal filters has come up I'll stick my nose in again.http://www.donaldson.com/en/industrialair/literature/000903.pdfhttp://extranet.plymovent.com/ufiles/PSP_MDB_020313_US.pdfThe 2 links above show how the "big boys" setup their filter units that use cartridges and discharge the filtered air back into the workplace.
You'll notice that the cartridges are mounted horizontally and they filter from the outside in. The dust is collected on the outer surface of the filter and not on the inside as is practiced by the small shop installations (inside is done because it's easier to make and therefore cheaper but not better). The cartridges are cleaned with compressed air back-flow pulses with the dust falling into a bin below. These filters in the units are in some cases the same as the ones supplied on the small units you're familiar with. A filter box could be made in a similar fashion for the small shop dust collector, with manual blowing as needed by a long air nozzle to keep the filters clean. The filters actually work better in this manor because the pleated folds are more open on the outside than on the inside of the cartridge. If a box is made with 2 filters to start, but with enough volume inside to stack 4 filters, an extra pair could be added at a future date to make the system breath easier, and therefore increase the efficiency. It would prolong the filter life if the incoming air from the blower was made to hit the side of the box or a baffle plate rather than hit the cartridge directly.I have 7 slightly used cartridges from a Downdraft sanding table that I got from work that I will be mounting into just such a filter house someday. (No. That wasn't intended as a gloat. OK. Maybe a small one.) But I want to make the Cyclone first.
Todd,
Your filter setup seems interesting. Your ducting setup seems complicated ;) ... I certainly agree that flex hose should be kept to a minimum, but I plan on using the overkill blower in the CV to allow me to use this simple solution from my mains to my machines.
I mistyped my wires gauges. I'll be using 10/2 all the way. And by ''standard wall switch'', I meant one that can support the amps, like the ones an electrician put on my lines to turn off my circuits when not in shop.
It is a real pleasure to have the chance to learn from what others are doing. Thank you once again.
Fred
Was at the Hartford Wood Expo last weekend. At this show there is alot of heavy industrial woodworking show being demo'd. I notice that the vast majority of these people were using Oneida dust collectors at this show. I had been looking at cyclones for several years and had I not been able to find a used Torrit for $70 I would have gone with Oneida. Well beck sells for them in Canada but I think it would be worth the drive to go directly to Syracuse and save yourself some money. My concern with Plexi or similiar products is what happens if you suck something heavy into the line and it hits the inside of the cyclone. I had a DC flex hose on my workbench while sanding one day.Itwas a 2 hp toolex with no cyclone. All of a sudden all hell broke loose with clanking and all other sorts of noises. I immediately turned off the DC and looked inside the bag and seen the remains of my approx 12 inch wooden handle horsehair dust brush. The wood was shreaded and horse hair everywhere. My DC worked fine after that. Just my experience. PS also live in Woodstock. Ont.
Brian
After a couple weeks of use I'm generally satisfied with my Clearvue cyclone.
I did make some modifications to the assembly, suggestions which have been forwarded to Clear Vue. I'm replacing the bugle head screws securing the plastic to the MDF backer with flat head screws. I don't like caulk so I added a couple screws as needed to pull the plastic tight against the MDF at the bottom of the transition. And I added four strap braces to hold the transition tight to the blower housing. A picture is attached. The straps were cut from a piece of 36" x 1 3/8" x 1/16" hanger iron from the local hardware store.
I had hoped to be able to report actual CFM readings but the borrowed gauge did not yield consistent readings. The longest run is about 45' with two long sweep elbows and about 4' of flex, to the table saw, and I'm satisfied with the results.
I used Kirk & Blum 6" snap together metal dust collection pipe with long sweep elbows and branches and am very happy with the piping. A 6" edge sander, 8" jointer, 15" planer and table saw are connected but only one will be used at a time.
Woodworking is a full time part time job, and I don't know how the plastic will resist wear and tear over the years. Depending on the project, the dust collector may be used anywhere from 5 to 15 or so hours per week.
My strongest reason for buying the Clear Vue is that I wanted a system designed to drop fine dust in the cyclone collection bin and not pass through to the filters. I'd still recommend blowing compressed air through the filters every couple weeks, just to keep maximum air flow through the piping. Sometimes I still forget to turn on the dust collector, so that when I do there is a clump of chips and dust going in, and some of this has gotten over into the cartridges of course. Sometimes I am only making a couple cuts on the tablesaw and don't bother walking around the saw to the dust collection switch. After eight to ten sets of "just a couple saw cuts" there is a mass of sawdust in the table saw and some spills over into the cartridge the next time the dust collector is started. I've filled perhaps 2 45 gallon trash bags from the cyclone bin, and there is perhaps a gallon of dust and chips in the bin for the cartridge filters. I suspect that is because of the "clumps" I put through and not the design of the cyclone, but can't be positive.
I'm satisfied with the performance and cost, and with 3 weeks of limited experience do not regret the purchase.
Don
I'm interested in knowing more about the K&B ducts. I'd came across their site a few weeks ago and bookmarked it but hadn't really heard too much about their stuff. Is the K&B similar to the Nordfab quick clamp ducting? For the installation I'm planning I need to run permanent ducting from my garage rafter area to the bottom of the joists. Then quick connect ducting from the rafters down for both the output duct to the bin and the vacuum intake ducts. Can their ducts be assembled/dis-assembled quickly? I'm looking for something like a 5 min tool-less setup.
Would be interested in your opinion.
ThanksIf you build it he will come.
I would expect the K&B to be directly comparable to Nordfab. Sometimes a bit of fussing is needed to get the two pipe ends and clamp all aligned, but nothing drastic. I chose this type of duct because I wanted metal and plan on moving in the next couple years. Bit confused by your post - can't imagine why you would have to regularly take duct apart unless tools invade garage space of SWMBO. Check with the companies - you may have a distributor with samples in your area.
Thanks. I'll take a closer look at the K&B ducting. I still need to be able to park a vehicle in the "shop". The only place I have room to put the cyclone is in the high point of the rafters which is directly above the parking space. That's why I need to be able to quickly remove the ducting below the rafters and store it away when I roll the WW machines back into their storage spots.
If you build it he will come.
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