Well after some 30 hours of effort, it seems the client isn’t 100% satisfied. Just completed stripping, stripping, sanding, sanding…. staining and top-coating a 5′ wide, by 9 ft long dining room table
Table was solid pine with perpendicular grains. Client actually picked the stain from a sample on poplar – General Finish “Candlelite”. The stain was indeed a bit on the redder side then they were after, but the rest of the dining room was dark stained oak. My thinking was a bit of contrast to the dark oak would be nice complement. Regardless, client saw the table 2 times in my shop before top coating occurred.
Top coat is 6 coats of HVLP sprayed Waterlox original, stain. Yes, I know waterlox recommended wiping, but the large surface area and the perpendicular grains, had me looking for an easy way out. Honestly, the spraying went much better than I expected. Like I said 6 total coats, rub-out/light sanding after 3rd and 5th, then final coat. No wax afterwards.
Issue: Client ‘loved’ the result in my shop. but after a few days in their home dining room, I get a message: “Is there a way to darken the table so it’s not so red”. Lighting in dining room (LED) apparently is exaggeration the red.
My response was, well that’s going to be tuff. 6 coats and anything you put on it, to darken it, like wax, will not penetrate. First recommendation was to change the lighting, or eat by candlelight!
All kidding aside, I was wondering if there were any suggestions on how to darken up the color some without a major rework.
As always, looking forward to your support.
Replies
Can you spray a couple of tinted coats and 1 more coat of clear? It will obscure the grain a bit...
How much diff between the color temp in the shop and home?
Short answer: No
You need to politely explain to the client that the only way to properly change the color is to strip off 6 coats of finish and start over. That will cost both time and money. It will be their money because they both picked the color and approved the color in your shop. Work out some sort of cost sharing if you are so inclined.
I think your suggestion of changing the lighting color is a good one. There are LED lights now that are both dimmable and change color. That might be a reasonable solution. I think that light color in the range of blue to green will kill the red somewhat. Again, share the cost if you are so inclined. It's sometimes a good thing to do for customer relations.
New light bulbs. Seriously.
In new construction, all subsequent changes to the original agreed upon plan incur an extra charge. Since your table was 'checked off' good by the client after completion, they should pay 100% of the cost to THEN make it "less red".
I agree on the bulbs, different LED bulbs have different tones. I have some that are blue and some that tend toward yellow in my house. Your shop lighting could be quite different than the lighting at their house which could be where some of the problems started in the first place. What they saw was not what they got. Paint at the paint store is never the same color when you get it home and then its different from one room to the next.
Buy your clients a bottle of Visine, you know, " gets the red out...."
The color temperature of the lighting is key here. Your shop lights may be fluorescents, which are a cool blue in tone. Their dining room may be low temperature LEDs that tend toward the red end of the spectrum, enhancing the red tones in the table top. The consensus here on replacing the lighting or paying you to redo stain as needed are in agreement with my views. You can first try a coat of Waterlox with some dye added to suppress the red. I have no idea what color would do that. Perhaps green wax?
I don't think changing the lights will make a difference. Whatever "too red" is to the client is in relation to the rest of the room. It will always have that same difference/contrast/color shift in the space once their eyes adjust to the new light. If the old chairs are the color target new bulbs won't matter, it still won't match.
Never used waterlox. It says it’s a hybrid of tung oil and phenolic resin (varnish). Shellac may give you a darker appearance and/or a safe place to work from. Sanding sealers (typically alcohol shellac base) bond to most finishes and give you a good starting point.
I’d suggest taking a piece of scrap and experimenting with the process. For what it’s worth I use pieces of scrap from the project to demonstrate what it will be.
My process for walnut is aniline dye, shellac sealer, gel stain, and 4-6 coats of lacquer or 6+ coats of varnish depending on usage.
I’m thinking a sealer covered by gel stain and then a topcoat may solve your issues. Ive never tried a wood dye after other processes. But again time and money will be primarily at customers expense. Again use some scraps and have them sign off on it.
Can you use a brown transparent oil paint thinned with boiled linseed over it, then seal with varnish? I would prep a test piece in the same manner as your previous work, that you can use for testing and so that the client can take it home and make sure it’s what they want before you do the work.
Oh and definitely charge them for it all.
Leaving aside what you mean by perpendicular grains. An aside, I've tested all those G.F. colors on Pine and far and away Candlelight was my least favorite...so unnatural and...red. One option would be to apply a glaze, shellac (with Transtint dyes e.g.) or other with a brownish green cast. As the green is the compliment of red and will "possibly" neutralize the neon effect of Candlelight. Of course goes without saying - samples first.
All good inputs, thanks so much for the prompt responses. Samples are key for sure, however I think that may be part of where we ended up. Candlelight on Poplar did indeed appear more 'brownish', while on the stripped pine, it appeared reder.
Shop lights are 8' fluorescents, about 14ft off the ground, but I do have a couple of 4ft LED tubes that sit about 8ft above the finishing table. Client requested a 3rd coat of stain after seeing the second, hoping for a bit darker color, which it did.
Where I left it with them was " I'll look into possible solutions, and effort", but as I tell my wife, at times, live with it for a while, and it will grow on you. Perhaps that's why we've been married over 40 years!
I may ask the client to invite over a few friends, and/or family, that saw the original table and see what they think. I can assure you the transformation is awesome, even if I do say so myself.
Thanks again.
Yea, if that Poplar sample had typ. greenish streaks - Candlelight prob. looked pretty good. Sometimes I cut GF stains with a lot of red with their American Oak which is a bit greenish - tones the red down a bit. I think the table color (even if too pinky red) is nice counterpoint to the other wood colors in room. If clients lived with it for a while - "maybe" might be okay.
Jeebuz, nothing in the room matches. Price the "fix" properly (a re-do of the original job, which it is) and it will go away.
No question. What you did looks really really good. But, how close is it to what they approved (Candlelite on poplar). I assume the picture on the left is the original table, not the sample. So. Yeh. I think a re-do is in order. But I don't think the cost is all on you. You should share part of it because you, the expert, should have known better than to ask the client to approve the stain applied to a different wood. How you share the cost is between you and the client. However, they need to loan you a piece that is the color they want for you to take to the shop and match it as close as you can. And you need to put up some temporary lighting in your shop to match as closely as possible what the client has.
I will add a cautionary note. I'm betting that the surface is veneer (I know you said that it is solid pine but I don't think so. Building table tops out of solid wood with alternating grain directions is a no no because of seasonal wood movement). You have already sanded it as you stated, be very very careful with any more sanding during a are-do. You may have already nearly sanded through the veneer. You don't want to do that.
Client saw Candlelight on poplar at woodcraft store. They subsequently saw the stripped/sanded table, in my shop, under LED and/or Florescent lights, after 2 coats of the stain.
Both husband and wife were at woodcraft when 'expert' finisher said: Don't try to match the existing woods in the room, you'll never get there, it's best to do contrasting color.
I've reached out and offered to do samples with some options, as mentioned above, but would need some time to get samples to same state. I've also offered a redo, but cannot commit to completion before Thanksgiving.
Honestly, this all migrated from fact that my original plan was to use a MinWax stain, darker color, but got talked out of it by woodcraft 'expert'. That's when client came to woodcraft to select a GF alternative. Claim was that MinWax contains too much silicone to be a true oil stain and that Waterlox as top coat would be a disaster.
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Tablecloth.
The mistake was made when you used a sample other than the pine. The underside of the table may have been your best option. It is difficult if you were the one to strip the original finish to even take a pine board which had never seen finish to create a sample with. Also pine is one wood which inverts the light and dark growth rings when it is stained. The dark become the light and the light rings become the dark rings.
As a 20+ year owner of a refinishing business, sometimes you bite the bullet and do it over. Since the finish is recent and waterborne, it should strip easily with a methylene chloride stripper. That assumes you have some because I don't think you can buy it unless it comes from a stripper supplier and in 5 gal containers. Benco Sales is where my strippers came from.
As to the suggestions to use a toner or glaze, as one previous poster stated, use a green / blue cast dye to kill the red. It is going to turn it dark brown and may obscure the wood grain. Also the added coats since you already have six coats applied may become thicker than the coatings manufacturer recommends and possibly will crack or craze after a year or more of time.
In my opinion, chalk this one up as experience and do it over. Good Luck.
Agree with many of Jerry's points but have a few comments.
1) Have you been paid? If not, they're in charge and reworking it on your dime may be the only way to settle.
2) I would try tinting it long before i stripped it (last resort). Especially where too much red is the problem, you'd be amazed at how little green will shift that to brown.
I did this to a set of cherry kitchen cabinets that were very red/orange with just clear on them. I used bright green Trans Tint in pre cat Lacquer. After a few samples to zero in on the strength it looked great under one more shot of clear. There was no obscuring of the grain as the tint was very clear.
Also, and I'm sorry to say it, but I don't think I'd ever put a water borne finish on a dining table. They've gotten better, but still not as durable.
All good points, Gilded.
It took me about 6 months in to realize that I needed to be in control of the color and sheen. I always opened the overhead door near my paint booth to allow the customer to review my colors. Then I explained the red browns and green browns of the color wheel. By then they were happy to let me create my color with great latitude. Over the time span of my business, Only one customer demanded I strip and apply a lighter color. And I believe it was because he did not have the cash to pay that day.
I agree with Jerry. It is entirely your fault for not getting the customer to sign off on a finish sample of the same species.
Layering additional coats on top of 6 of Waterlox will probably create additional problems ,labor, and at best still not satisfy your customer.
Strip it again, make an accurate sample for approval and refinish the table. Chalk it up to experience not to be repeated.
By the way, Waterlox Original is not water based.
Not sure where the 'waterborne' comments are coming from. GF Stain is OIL based as well as the Waterlox. As I mentioned earlier, original plan was to use MINWAX, then Waterlox, but I got talked out of it. The GF oil based colors options weren't to the clients liking, so perhaps they 'settled' on the Candlelight.
I'm willing to do the total refinish, but can't get it done by Thanksgiving.
Without creating a separate thread, what are folks thoughts on best stain and top coat? BTW: I'd prefer to stay away from Gels, as I find them harder to blend across a larger surface.
What about dark brown wax on top to cut down on the red? I do like the change the light bulbs suggestion too.
I don't know how I got on the W/B thing, so sorry for the confusion.
The color temp thing is a biggie. I remember spending most of a summer at the Stickley factory helping them develop a color pallette for a new line.
The finishing room was far from a natural light source. I have no idea how many miles we walked back and forth to scrutinize colors. They had a light box, but its not the same.
The table in the OP looks really good and looks fine in the room. I hate when all the furniture in a room is the same color, especially if they were individual pieces to begin with.
Tint it with an approved target sample handy and best of luck wiggling out of this one. That might take an afternoon...you can always go backwards if need be.
Splinters, I've discussed the glazing option with client, in that if it doesn't seem to resolve the issue, then a redo is in order anyway.
Question is, do I add the green tint to clear shellac, and spray it for even coverage, or is this a wipe on process?
What about using Amber shellac? Perhaps this will mute the red as well even though it's kinda orange.
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Always do a decent sized test board with the full finishing protocol and make them sign and date their approval on the back of the test board with a Sharpie.
Lose the spray gun, six coats of "stuff" and all that crap. You're making it too hard.
Thanks. I'm working a 3ft piece (2x6) of aged pine now. Aged in that it's been buried in my wood pile for quite some time. Looks like its seen some UV so color and grain appear as close to table as I can get.
I figure if I do both sides I can get 6-8 samples. I'll then mix up some green tint with shellac and see how they look, and as you suggest, get formal approval.
If the tint doesn't work, I'll strip the finish and get the stain darker at that point.
I honestly would tell them nicely they will have to accept the table as-is or provide a refund and sell the table to somebody else. No way I'd strip varnish or whatever and try to make them happy. Lick your wounds and move on.
I haven't stained a piece of wood for a client in 20+ years for this exact reason. Oil and wax, shellac and wax, or paint. That's it. If people like dark, use dark wood. If people like light, use light wood.
Not sure if folks above still view/comment on old threads, but thought I'd give a quick update on where things sit. Client just brought table back to my shop. We took one of the leaves, and placed it adjacent to my samples, and low and behold, they looked almost the same. In fact they 'loved it'. Yes, the table leaf, and my samples were fine to their liking. Looked in the shop, with LED light, outside in sunlight, up down and all around they said: Yeah, that's what we wanted ! It seems the problem lies in their dining room lighting, and/or how the sunlight hits the room.
The plan is to 'glaze' it with a light walnut stain, then top coat it with 1-2 coats of waterlox. The General Finish oil based stain(American Walnut) I used on the samples seems to integrate quite well with the Waterlox top coating. I then top coated the glaze with waterlox(spray) and it all seems to be to their liking, at least as far as the sample go. It's a crazy situation, in that they were scratching their heads as far as what to do. They still liked the table in all light conditions, at my shop, it's just their home environment, that has them unhappy.
For those of you that are experienced refinishers, how do you deal with a situation like this, where shop lighting, outdoor lighting all look good, but at home, Not so good!
They're not looking for any 'comp' on the original, and willing to pay for the redo, it's just "it looks too red" in my house.
Not a pro refinisher, but have experience in color matching in print from a previous job. I suggest educating the customer upfront that you can come close to matching the color in your viewing environment, but color is a sensation that varies by person and is impacted by viewing angle, adjacent colors, lighting, sheen and other factors. Once they approve the color in your shop(simulated natural light is best), invite them to take the sample home for viewing before approval.
Not a pro finisher either, but sounds like dining in your shop is the win-win. Good to hear this didn’t go against you and thanks for the follow up.