Replies

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 04, 2004 04:46am | #1

   Dave,

   I'm meant to be cleaning the house, having sent the kids out with mum for a day to give me a chance to get to everything, so a really quick reply.

   Don't alter the mouth - a shoulder plane is designed to operate with a small mouth opening to allow it to clean up sholders of tenons without tearing out.

   If the blade is hitting the throat, check for the following.

   bent blade stem - (blade not seating on frog properly), if so, take blade out and tap stem with hammer if that's where the bend is - you can't straighten the heat treated blade.

   Crud on bed - is the bed clean of dust/chips/shavings?

   If both of these are OK and the blade still doesn't protrude out of the plane, I's spend 5 min flattenning the back of the blade, making the blade thinner until it does fit.

   Having said this, I think that the thing would have been tested at the plant, so I'd check for a bent blade stem as a first port of call.

   I'd be incredibly reluctant to touch the throat.

   eddie

1. 
   davearnone | Jan 05, 2004 01:38am | #2

   Eddie, thanks for replying.  After considering your post i took another hard look and now things appear a bit more complicated.  I'd appreciate any insight you might have.

   Things i saw:1) When i go to put the iron in the body, it wants to go through the mouth crooked with one corner leading ahead of the other.  This is w/o the cap.2) The throat slot appears to be slightly out of square with respect to the sides of the plane body, consistent with the iron corner that leads the way through the slot.3) A view of the cap iron from below shows that the little foot that bears on the iron is askew to the dowel axis that the cap pivots about.  I can find no evidence of impact damage to have caused this.  I'm wondering if it is bent because it is trying to mate up with the crooked throat.4) It appears that if the iron came throught the throat evenly, I'd have just enough room for some chips.5) Yes the iron is bent as you suggest.  However the bending and its attendant problems are very small in comparison to the out of skew throat.6) Yes, there was a little crud on the bed, but after a little action from a fine diamond lapping stick it is now gone.

   Any ideas?  I'm hard pressed to come up with a way to straighten things out successfully.dave

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 05, 2004 01:53am | #3

   Dave,

   rushing off to work at the moment - I'll give it some thought and post tonight .

   All others - jump in with advice but please!

   Ta,

   eddie

2. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 05, 2004 09:00am | #4

   Dave,

   I've got a fair bit happenning around me today so I can't give your question full justice here - apologies in advance.

   Sounds as though either :(1) the blade is twisted, or;(2) clifton matched the throat to the bed, or;(3) someone re-lapped the sole out of square in an attempt to 'tune' it

   Aside from this, if the blade is flat and true, and the throat of the plane is uneven (someone re-lapped the sole out of square), then you've got the best you can - use it and see how it goes.

   Cheers,

   eddie

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 05, 2004 12:36pm | #5

   Larry,

   I'm having a shocker today - be a couple of days before I can get time to sit down and 'relax' enough to think anything through.

   Have I missed anything obvious here - I've got this gut feeling that there's something really simple, but I can't pin it down.

   Would you mind looking over my rushed thoughts so far?  I'd appreciate your comments if you have the time to give them please.

   Thanks in advance,

   eddie

   Edited 1/5/2004 4:43:49 AM ET by eddie (aust)

1. 
   Scrit | Jan 05, 2004 03:03pm | #6

   I suppose the thing to ask is whether or not the sole is square to the sides (it sould be) and also whether or not the mouth opening runs square across the sole. Those will tell us if the tool has een machined or lapped out of square

   Scrit

2. 
   davearnone | Jan 05, 2004 10:01pm | #8

   The sole is square to the sides.

   The mouth runs crooked across the sole.

   It's pretty hard to check the bed to the sole with a square.  I'm thinking I'm going to put it in the CMM here at work and see what i measure.

   thxdave

3. 
   Scrit | Jan 05, 2004 10:24pm | #10

   If the sole is square to the sides but the mouth is crooked to the sole then it sounds as though it was machined a little off. There were rumours in the UK that the very early Cliftons (1980s) were a bit hit and miss with quality control, sounds like you could have one of those. As long as the sole is flat in the length and you can flatten the iron, all is not lost - you've got the important thing with a shoulder plane, sole and side square to each other. It just means that you will have to grind the iron with a slight skew to accommodate the bed being machined a little off. Hey, you've got a skew shoulder plane there without paying extra! <G>

   Scrit

2. 
   RANGERP75R | Jan 05, 2004 06:34pm | #7

   dave

      "I keep crashing the cutting edge into the front of the mouth".

       At what initial bevel angle did you recieve the iron? Could someone have altered the original angle of the shoulder iron to a steeper angle. Probably not, but I would check it.

      Dave, I don't know if you're an old planer or new planer, but you do have the iron inserted with the bevel up. I won't mention who that many years ago put the bevel angle up on a bench plane. Looked right to him but the results weren't real good. Found out latter that blocks and shoulders bevels are up and bench planes bevels are facing toward the rear. Hopefully that person is much wiser now. ha.. ha..

   Good Luck...

   sarge..jt

   Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/5/2004 11:12:03 AM ET by SARGE

1. 
   davearnone | Jan 05, 2004 10:02pm | #9

   Sarge, yep, the bevel is up.  The 410 is a pretty small plane, so there is absolutely no change the blade will go through the throat with the bevel down.

   Thanksdave

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Jan 06, 2004 06:01am | #11

   dave

      I have seen the 410 and 420 at Highland Hardware and they seem to be well made. I thing Scrit may have nailed it with an early production before they got precise to compete. The Clifton bench planes seem well made too as I have taken a few on test drives at Highland.

      I believe Scrits suggestion will do the trick along with taking the iron thickness down a notch. I would hate to take away thickness on a bench iron, but I think it would not be as critical on the shoulder.

   Good luck with the mods...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

3. 
   parker1 | Jan 06, 2004 07:56am | #12

   dave

   it is not at all unheard of for clifton to send out a plane with an out of square opening. I own 3 and love them all but sent my originally ordered 410  back- to be replaced with a plane with a square opening. They sent one that was somewhat better but needed work. Fortunately i was at woodworking school at the time so i had time to spend on the plane. My suggestion is this....

   1) don't make rocket science out of it

   2)don't file the opening (that would be evil)

   3)Try sandpaper on 1/2 " thick glass or a reliable machine surface adhered with 3m spray adhesive (dont spray the adhisive to thick or it will create a soft and uneven surface)

   NOTE- consider ordering the micro-abrasive  sandpaper from japan woodworker. It has a very tightly measured abrasive particle and cuts amazingly well and fast. I cannot emphasize enough my regard for this product for any and all lapping chores. its only downside is it has a backing that will want to curl up into a scroll. You may have to wieght it down with ply and a couple books untill it is set on the glass.

   4)  make a perfectly square block of wood 10" long by2"X2". Use this somewhat like a portable fence that you will set the plane up against to keep the tool square as you lap the sole on the abrasive. BE SURE YOU CHECK THAT THE BLOCK OF WOOD IS SQUARE TO THE GLASS. Set the block on the glass and check it with an accurate square.

   5) Set the plane against the block WITH THE IRON IN THE PLANE AND RETRACTED ABOUT 1/16 "and with THE CAPSCREW TIGHTENED AS IN NORMAL USE  use light pressure and a patient attitude to slide the plane to and fro. Start with the equivilent of about 220 grit and work your way thru finer grits.

   When you are lapping- don't get a rythym going. go forward -stop-then go back-stop-forward....etc.. You don't want to work a curve into the sole

   Check your progress all the time with square and straightedge move all around the sandpaper this will true the sole and slowly open the throat. Dont let it get away from you this sandpaper cuts fast. as for the out of square opening you will have to sharpen your blade out of square to match the opening and think of it as a scewed plane. hope this helps.

4. 
   watkinsjd | Jan 07, 2004 12:29am | #13

   Dave,

   Here is a link to a pretty good side view of a 410 on The Best Things site. Maybe looking at it and your plane at the same time will help.

   http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/graphics/cl410.jpg

   John

1. 
   davearnone | Jan 09, 2004 09:02am | #14

   Thanks everyone for all the input.  I finally figured it out.  Wow was i going in the wrong direction.  Turns out i had sharpened the iron exactly square to its side edge, not its centerline.  Once i realized the side is not parallel to the centerline everything resolved itself, and all the noticed issues were more false alarms than real problems.

   Thanks again.dave