I was thinking about buying a Felder, or Hammer combination saw, jointer, planer, & shaper, and selling off my individual machines to open up some space. I was wondering if anyone has experienced problems using, or converting the Combo. machines.
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Can't make specific recommendations as my combo hasn't arrived yet (I'm still building the shop!) but I'm going down the same path for two main reasons: #1 space saving (It'll be a very small shop) and #2 I wanted a wide jointer (12"). Getting a slider, scoring, a shaper, and a slot mortiser all in the same footprint sealed the deal. I decided on Mini-Max. Have you checked them out?
http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/HammerB3/hammerb3index.html
Moe,
I use a small combo at home - throw on the slider's a bit shorter than I'd like at about 28" - with a bit of time I'll get it out to 50" = about a day's work in it.
Basically, they're ideal for home use (I use mine to do the cabinetry jobs on the side - trade cabinetmaker, but I didn't want to leave myself open to accusations from the boss that I was not doing my paid work but the foreign orders in his time)
You'll hear a bit of bellyaching that you set up for jointing and then have to remove all fences, etc to set up the thickness planer. When finished thickness planing, you have to drop the table down 6" to set up the jointer again so yopu have to change it's setting. This is true, but is easy enough to work around - surface plane/joint/square two sides of all parts of the stock with the machine in jointer mode, then change the machine over to thicknesser and repeat the exercise, working from thickest to thinnest dimension.
Works fine - no real chopping and changing then.
I have a small MiniMax that I bought second hand and am happy with the unit. Slot morticer is a bit sticky to operate, but a can of Molybdenum Disulphide spray (I think that your trade name is dri-lube) will get it working fine again. The jointer, thicknesser and saw work well. I haven't had a need yet to use the spindle moulder.
Floor space needed for machine - approx 2m by 1m for storage (6' by 3'), about 12' x 12' in operation, depending upon the size of your components.
Hope this helps,
eddie
Edited 4/18/2004 6:15 am ET by eddie (aust)
I looked at the Felder and was very impressed. I looked at the Hammer and was very much less than impressed.
Saw the MiniMax CU300 Smart and have been making happy saw dust with it ever since.
I would have gone for the Felder but it was about $5k more than the MiniMax and I didn't see that much difference in usability or fit and finish to justify the dollar delta.
__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
I have owned two Mini-Max before now I have a Felder. The Minimax with the 35cm planer pretty much compares to the Felder with the 30 cm planer. The felder still has some advantages. The biggest is the line of accessories: add on extensions for all table and bed edges(that can also be used on bandsaws and other machines using their aftermarket attachments), exchangeable shaper spindles,shaper hood that keeps a setting even when removed and then replaced,a rear tilting on the shaper spindle, and the new model even takes a dado head for the American market. Felder is also much heavier as such more stable.
Disadvantages, to change from surface planer to thickness planer on the Felder you must lower the planer bed to 18.5cm where as on the Mini-max around 5cm to 6 cm is enough. This is the only major change over that is a bit of a pain.
The quick change planer knives for the Felder are Esta system for the Mini-max Tersa. Tersa are quicker and more expensive ,Esta are better quality, Felder has a choice of two or 4 blade heads, the four is worth the extra cost. Don't get the standard blade system, with the rapid change systems even if you nick the blades it takes a minute (literally a minute) to shift two of the blades half milimeter and totally cover the nick.
Space Felder also has a moble base system that is compact and functional. Some owners use a palet jack but as I see it , then you have to put the palet jack somewhere.I don't know what the latest on the Mini-Max is but the major European wood machinery trade fair is here in Milano at te end of May so I guess I'll have a look.
Don't get a Hammer it's made by Felder but they basically suck.
If you work alone , use long heavy boards, and don't want to ever have to bother someone to "catch the other end of this" get the Felder. If you want to save a few bucks but have a compareable machine look at the Mini-max 35 they are both great machines.
If you want to know anything else feel free to ask. Oh yeah just to add I have no connection to either of the companies.
Philip
Thanks for all the Info. I'm really most concerned with Heavy Duty, I'm Replacing a 26" Crescent Planer, 12" Moak Jointer, & Northfield Shaper all excellant machines but not worth the floor space, I do more cabinet work than millwork.
Thanks again,
Moe
If it's a question of heavy duty go for the Felder, if you need more planer width they also build a 40cm combination.
Philip
There is also a Felder owners group on yahoo in which you can get more info.
I went the other direction, sold the Robland combo and bought individual machines. That was based on getting a larger shop. The thing I found with the combo was that it did require a bit more planning when dimensioning stock and I always would process a little extra because it was a bit of a pain to reset-up to do one piece. However, that thought process has stayed with me and made me more efficient in general. That all being said, I thing you’ll love the combo, I’d also look at the new Laguna too.
I just bought the Felder CF741 combo and although I have not actually used it yet, it's construction in every aspect exceeds my expectations. This is the 16" jointer/planer, with motorized planer bed lift and digital readout to .005", 8'6" sliding table, 12" main saw blade w/scoring, horizontal mortiser, tilting spindle shaper, and (3)5.5HP motors with variable speed. Truthfully, my Delta and Powermatic equipment looks downright crude in comparison to the precision of this machine. Are you anywhere near Delaware or Sacramento, CA? I think if you saw these machines in person at their showrooms you would have a hard time saying no. I debated almost endlessly what equipment to buy for my new shop. The first time I saw the Felder in person was when I picked mine up (all 3700 lbs!), and I can tell you that if I had just gone there at the beginning I wouldn't have wasted any more time trying to decide. At least you should call them up and have them send you their video. That may be all the convincing you need. Good luck.
Edited 4/20/2004 5:52 pm ET by CL
Do you think is better to have the combo machine that has the saw, shaper,jointer,planer? thanks
YEP IF YA RICH! GO for it!
How's your experience so faw with the Felder? I am in the market for one, and wanted to get the combo machine? Do you use this professionally or r u a hobbiest? You mentioned you picked it up yourself? Can you ellaborate on that? Because shipping is like 8-900 bucks
Thanks
Manny
Manny I have just barely gotten the machine setup and working, but so far I could not be happier with the purchase. The precision that this machine is capable of is far above what is possible with the standard American machines that I am used to using - Delta, Powermatic, etc. I don't know what model you are looking at, but mine is the CF741, which is their largest. I attached a couple pics. Most people don't picture that large of a machine when they think of a combo, but they range from large to small in size. I already owned a trailer so I just drove to Delaware and had them load it for me and drove back - saved $1200. It cost me $300 to have a local rigger use his articulating forklift to place it in my shop. From there you can use a pallet jack to get it positioned.
These things are just freakin' awesome. Fu*kin Felder, Hell Yes. What a refreshing change from the simpering little poopyheads whining about Delta, Jet, and Grizzly. I love a guy not afraid to write a check. I'm so glad you've bought one. I need to send you a bottle of Veuve-Clicquot to Christen it with.
When my joints give out and I'm forced back into using machines you can bet your bippy I'm going to buy a quality combo machine. I just wish when I get that old I could still throw my wife up on the thing and have a go.
To say that these things are a vast improvement over the Taiwanese junk being manufactured these days is the epitome of understatement.
Edited 10/19/2005 7:22 pm ET by charlesstanford
I'm jelous! That is the one I like! Now, a couple of questions:
1.) Did you get the 3 phase or single phase?
2.) What tooling did you get first?
3.) You mind telling me about how much was the ticket?
4.) How long did it take to get it since ordering the machine?
Thank ..
1. Single phase input with built in inverter and three phase motors. Nice side benefit of this is that all the motors are variable speed 1000-6000 rpm. Handy for the shaper especially.2. Just the main blade, scoring blade, and a set of slot mortising bits for the mortiser.3. Was 16k and change almost two years ago. Sad to say, it is much more than that now due to the weakness of the dollar vs the euro.4. It was about three months from order to delivery. Each machine is built to order and there are many options to specify. Alot like ordering a new vehicle.I will give a more detailed report in a couple weeks - got a kitchen job coming up so I'll have some real world experience.
CL
I'd love to be your neighbor and borrow that!!
You'll have to issue a "user's experience" after a few months.
Here's a couple other pics.
I have had a Robland X-31 for the last four years. My experience has been mixed. The 12" jointer is almost worth the price of admission. And until I purchased a Woodrat, I used the horizontal mortiser quite a lot. I don't use much plywood so the sliding table hasn't been too important.
The set-up on a combo can be intimidating, particularly the sliding table.
There is an X-31 users group on yahoo. You can see it at :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RoblandX-31/
I suspect the other machines have similar rgoups. It is probably worth perusing these sites to get a deeper sense of the issues with each machine and combo's in general.
I am not sure what I would do if I were doing it again. I really like a 12" jointer. And the conversion time from tool to tool is not a big deal, as an earlier respondent also mentioned.
Good luck.
PS I couldn't get the trucking company to put my 1500 lb machine in my barn. I had to hire a mover to do it.
Stephen J. Gaal
Moe, I had a Jet Cabinet saw w/ 52" fence system on a moble base, 6" jointer on mobile base, portable planer. I sold them after I located a used Felder BF6-31 on line. I made arrangements with the owner, then drove from Seattle area to SF Bay area to get the machine. I got it on a pallet and then loaded with a pallet jack onto an ABF truck and paid the shipping home. At home, I had some problems as the machine was broken. I am two left thumbs, but I ordered the parts from Felder and fixed the machine. That was two years ago.
What do I think after 2 years of use? Wow! I would buy a combo machine again in a minute. The sliding table completely changes the way you work. The machine takes up about the same space as my old tablesaw. However, at one ton it's actually much easier to move on the mobile base than the cabinet saw was. The machine has two wheels at one end and you put a levered wheel under the other end to lift and move it (turns on a dime as there's not four wheels to deal with!).
I'm not rich (like someone posted). How much would it cost you to purchase inexpensive tooling i.e. Grizzly? A 12" jointer is about $2500. A 12" table saw w/ sliding table is about $2K (and much less mobile). A 12" planner of industrial quality is about another $1k (mine doesn't snipe & 4 knives). A shaper w/ sliding table that tilts? Grizzly will sell you one for $3K. Now, how much floor space will you loose? The changeover from joining to planing takes about 3 minutes (most of that is raising the planing table up from 7" to 1" (you could get an electric drive on a new Felder and not worry about it). I got all the tooling that the old owner had too. (2 shaper heads with numerous profile knives, high speed router spindle, several saw blades, extension tables, etc).
The sliding table I can sit on when extended and it supports my body weight. It will glide me past the blade if I push off with my finger (at 225#, not recommended for long term wear, of course). The table rides next to the blade, not 10" off like with an Excaliber. Saw blade electronically braked. Dust collection shroud under the blade and above. Riving knife instead of a splitter. T-slots in the slider for holddowns or attachments. Easy access to the blades. Jointer/planner uses the same head with doublesided indexed knives (like on a portable planner). The saw fence on mine is like the Unifence, it can be placed 6" high or on edge, 1/2" high for thin cuts. For cut offs, you can pull the fence back from the blade and use it as a stop. The miter fence is better than any of the ones on the market (like the Jessem or Acuemiter). All of the adjustments are accurate & repeatable to 1/10th of a mm. (my scales are in inches though). Remember too, that with a tilting head shaper, all of the angles change as you tip the head - like a new knife profile for every couple of degrees of tip & height. (On a Felder, the head tips away from the workpiece. Safer as it won't pinch the piece down to the table).
What don't I like, or would I change? I miss the use of my Forrest Dado King. I bought an older machine that doesn't take one (some machines do). I use a router & straightedge instead. I would like a longer slider (I have a 4' one). I would possibly buy two machines (saw/shaper on a mobile base, jointer/planer up against a wall) and use two fences. I would get one with a 16" jointer/planer.
By the way, Hammer has redesigned their machines. The reviews you've seen, if older than 4 months ago are the old machines.
Rod
Many, the Knapp, Felder and Mini-Max are all nice machines, you won't go wrong with any of them. I would personally recommend as a result of owning two combinations the separation of the J/P and TS/Shaper.
All of the better combination machines are very accurate and robust from the Knapp which is built more like metalworking machinery to the Felder which has a lot of neat features to the Minim-max which is a very good set of value-build trade-offs for the money.
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