About combination machines:
I am the happy owner of a Knapp 410 T Profi combination machine, made in Austria. It does nearly anything except wash windows. Seriously, I am extremely happy with my Knapp. That is not what this posting is all about.
What I am wondering is why the US industry don’t produce machines like the Knapp. The sliding table alone make the saw far superior to all other standard saws, any make.
Look guys. We have landed a man on the moon six times. We, as a nation have invented nearly everything of real value during the twentieth century. Surely American industry would be able to give the “continentals” a run for the money. Or am I wrong here?
Stig.
Replies
You clearly don't understand capitalism. If an American company made a reputable combination machine, we wouldn't have to buy all the individual machines. Without those sales, durable goods orders would decline. As those declined, the stock market would begin to tumble (even more than it has?). When that happened, consumer spending would put on the brakes again! When that happens, the economy slowely, but surely colapses!
Any questions?
Dave.
Thanks for your lesson in national economics. But before I go any further, my portfolio is above where it was before the “dot com bubble burst”.
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Now, consider this for a while.
I paid $ 23,500.00 for my machine. It consists of:
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· A 12 inch table saw with a 89 inch sliding table, accurate within two thousands of an inch, vertically as well as horizontally, over the full traveling length.
· A 16 inch jointer / planer with a four cutter <!----><!----><!---->Vigo<!----><!----> head.
· A 1 ¼ inch spindle shaper, that tilts 45 degree.
· A separate router attachment, (variable speed).
· A mortising table capable of 11 inch travel horizontally, six inch vertically and five inch depth capacity. All with “dead on” accuracy.
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The entire package is served by three six horsepower motors at 220 volt / three phase.
A bit of math tells me that if we divide the $ 23,500.00 with the total amount of machines, (five), housed in the package we end up with, 23,500 / 5 = 4,700 each.
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Oh, I almost forgot. The machine can actually be split up into two separate units that are capable of working individually. That way I would have to hire a builder to enlarge my shop in order to house the now, somewhat larger machine, (s). Of course, that would give a builder a bit of work, something to ponder, no? But I do agree Dave, we must stave off a collapse of our economy
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Therefore, back to the individual machines, an argument that fit with yours, “hand in glove”.
Most 12 inch table saws sell for much less than $ 4,700.00. You can buy a Chinese made imitation of a jointer for less that $ 1,000.00. Same for a planer at about $ 1,500.00. A three horse under-the-table router and a Formica table gives You a router set-up for less than a grand. The mortising machines? Well I don’t know how much one would cost. But from what I have seen, they can’t be all that expensive.
Conclusion: For less than half the price I paid for my Knapp, I would be able to fill my shop with questionable quality equipment, that will fail or give me lousy cuts etc. To remedy such a situation, a fellow like myself will sell all the marginal tools just to get rid of them and upgrade to something better. That better machine could very well be made here in the <!----><!---->USA<!----><!---->. Therefore Dave. Explain to me how the economy would fail under that scenario. Or are You hinting at planned obsolesce? I hope not.
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Stig.
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Stig,
LOL....ya got me there!
Actually, I wish an american firm WOULD make some nice tools. Looking around my shop, it's getting harder and harder to find something that works that is made here....sigh.
But hope springs eternal?
Rick.
Americans DO make some very nice tools. I recently bought a portable three axis mill from Micro Fence in North Hollywood CA. The precision and quality of the equipment is beyond perfect. Expensive? Yes, it costs more than the run-of-the-mill stuff. But after using the plunger a few times, the memory of writing the check fades away.
In any case, I have a bit of a secret. I steal money from my wife's household account and call it maintenance expenses. It has worked well so far. It is worth a try.
Stig.
I think the space issue is a key factor--separates are more efficient--IF you have the additional space. Northfield will still make them in the US and sell them to you--50K might do the job of replacing the Knapp functionality, including the slider.
I believe there is another factor at work. For products sold to consumers and small shops--the customers for the Unisaws, etc. I think the US tort system also makes a difference. There is a set of fairly minimal safety requirements set by government. But the Unisaw has been essentially unchanged since the 30's. Its inherent risks are widely understood. If you cut off your hand with a Unisaw, Delta is probably not at risk of litigation since the user assumed well understood risks, and probably violated a well known safety rule. But a new "safer" model creates a new set of risks for consumers, that might not be so well understood. Absent a regulatory requirement--such as the more stringent rules and certifications required in Europe--a US manufacturer exposes itself to increased litigation risk, even if his product was safer on balance. (The first SawStop customer who finds a way to cut off his hand may end up owning the company. If it were selling stock, I sure would recommend selling not buying.) This could be one case where increased government regulation may be a spur to innovation, not a hindrance.
I never cease to be amazed that lawyers can find ways to prevent the introduction of safer machines - that and people should be able to delude themselves that these self-same machines are intrinsically better (even safer) because they lack what many Europeans regard as basic safety measures......?????
In the UK we have a similar system (Law of Torts) to yourselves, but that hasn't stopped manufacturers developing machines even under the "heavy burden of legislation". But is it a heavy burden? The fact that there are so many European companies designing and building innovative woodworking machines which meet our much more stringent legislation surely indicates that Europeans are willing and able to invest in safety whilst American manufacturers appear to want to hide behind a defensive wall of lawyers rather than make even the smallest expenditures on adding to the safety of their customers. In that case it must be cost. Not really, we here are envious of the low costs to the end customer of many products in the USA. I fact we still see American engineering machinery, such as Bridgeport, being imported into Europe. Once again more stringent safety regulations apply here than in your home market - in fact the same set of regulations apply; called PUWER98 in the UK (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations, 1998). If the engineering guys can do it, why can't the woodworking machinery people? We also have machinery dealers here who import non-compliant (i.e. non-CE marked) machinery from China - but almost to a man they all fit the necessary interlocks, guards, anti-kickback tooling, etc. to make machinery comply. Not to do so would result in punitive legal action, possibly even imprisonment were a major accident to occur. So if I were in the USA I'd ask myself why it is that US manufacturers care so little about their customers' safety that they won't invest in it.
Scrit
Scrit with all due respect, I don't think you understand the American market very well. I say this without any rancor or bile whatsoever because I don't claim to understand it either and I'm sure there are investment firms spending millions of dollars in research to get a grip on it, but I do have a theory I'll throw out just for consideration,..
The American economy is of course a powerful force in the world, and there's this huge beast embedded in the American economy called the "New Home Construction, Home Improvement, and Housing sector." This beast is virtually ravenous. A lot of what we think of as equipment specifically made for custom furnituremakers, custom woodworkers, and hobbiest woodworkers, is stuff that's made to feed this ravenous and continually growing beast. Tools and machines are treated almost as if they are consumable, disposable,...almost certainly the equipment that goes to industry is depreciable. The manufacturers fight tooth and nail, and I mean tooth and nail, for market share. But it's not the elitist, custom woodworker sector (got to be a small sector) that they are fighting for, but a piece of the New Home Construction, Construction, Housing, Home Improvement sector. That's where the money is.
A close friend of our family invested $40,000 in a cabinet shop venture in 1964. According to my parents he scraped together every resource, loan, etc. to come up with that amount. My parents were in good position to know because they have been friends with the guy their whole life. His family lived in the other half of a duplex as my family in 1964. Two years ago he sold his partnership interest in the cabinet shop business for between 10 and 20 million dollars. An example of entreprenuership in the Housing sector of the American economy,....This kind of growth and dollars chasing dollars are what the tool manufacturers are fighting for. The fact that they market some of the same types of tools to people doing custom woodworking is just a side sector of their business, no where near as big or as important as the housing market. So I guess the bottom line is that they don't even pay a lot of attention to what woodworkers want in terms of safety and quality enhancements that make the tool last for fifty years. Not when 9 out of 10 Unisaws rolling off the line are going to industry to build millions of kitchen cabinets for hundreds of thousands of new, gigantic McHouses!
Anyway that's my theory and I'm sticking to it - offered for your consideration. Pls. don't take offense from my post as none was intended. Take care, Ed
Ed
No offence taken. We come from considerably different societies - two cultures divided by a common language?
Certainly I am aware of the huge differences in the construction markets in the EU and the USA (I have lived in your country for a while). Most of our house construction here is done using traditional stone/brick/concrete-type materials and for much of Europe timber construction has been the exception rather than the rule for several centuries. This means that the woodworking manufacturing sector here is MUCH smaller and more targetted at the higher quality furniture and interior fitting type work. Traditionally people in Europe have not built their own houses, or at least not for a long time, so the construction trades developed into powerful closed shops which have only really started to be dismantled over the last 40 years - ironically, at least in part, down to the creation of the EU. This being the case European machinery manufacturers are targetting a very different and much more "discerning" market - I can do rough joinery on my Altendorf, whereas a site saw cannot really make fine furniture. I feel that many of the more recent European combination machines sold in the USA were originally developed with an eye to both the small professional startup business here and the hobby market in the USA, which means that European machinery tends to be made to our much more stringent industry standards, and the economies of scale in manufacturimng mitigate against having different solutions for each market.
Scrit
I think you have missed the point. It is developing new machines in advance of regulations that is risky. American manufacturers would quite eagerly make those innovations were they shielded from the tort by regulatory requirement as CE manufacturers are. They would love for everyone to replace their 20 and 40 year old Unisaws. However: cigarette makers faced a $10 billion dollar judgment because they marketed low tar cigarettes, which arguably didn't reduce risk as much as the manufacturers implied in their ads. The judgment was only recently reversed because the higher court held that the regulations that permitted the marketing of those cigarettes were the binding factor. European makers have the luxury of hiding behind the rules, and don't need the expense of the lawyers and defensive design.
By the way, Bridgeport is no more as a manufacturer in the US.
Steve
You are right in saying that developing new machines in advance of legislation is risky. Possibly one of the features of the European legislative landscape is that a lot of legislation is draughted as the result of cooperation between government safety inspectorates, labour unions, insurance bodies, employers AND manufacturers. Such legislation takes time to impliment across the EU and manufacturers generally find that they have sufficient time to react. For example it took us about 8 years to bring-in the full CE legislation (as seen in PUWER98) in the UK which had been on the statute book in Germany since the early 1990s - this didn't slow UK manufacturers from implimenting many of the safety changes in advance of legislation. Being "shielded from the tort" in this way is probably seen as a positive thing here from the perspective of both manufacturer and employer alike (although no doubt the bean counters hate it), but it still does not reduce in any way the implied duty of care placed on them by the tort system. It just ensures that they need a system of checks and controls in design and manufacturing which reduce or eradicate risks to the end user. I still find it amazing, and not a little sad, that American insurers and labour unions haven't done more to push for improved safety standards in the workplace.
BTW, sorry to heare that Bridgport had gone. I seen relatively few machines in recent years carrying the name, perhaps what I've seen are recon. machines? We lost their "UK arm", Adcock & Shipley a few years back.
Scrit
Well, I think that in the US unionized manufacturing sector, there are very few of the light duty machines, such as the Unisaw, or basic shaper, etc. that have only our fairly primitive safety requirements. So much of the really industrial machinery is vastly different and so nearly automated that the safety features that differ between EU and US on light machinery have become moot. I wonder how the statistics on industrial injuries really compare across the pond, particularly if the firms were sorted by the number of employees.
Ay - ay – ay, look at what I started! An international calamity!
Tort restriction – labor unions – safety here – safety there.
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Hey all You guys. Here is my latest idea. Let’s sell our cars, homes and wood working tools. Get rid of all the furniture, art and household gadgets. Let’s liquidate our portfolios and all other investments.
For the money we get, we buy a cabin up in the woods without electricity. Take with You a few Lie Nielsen hand planes and Japanese back stroke saws. Get hold of a good horse and buggy. Fell a few trees near the cabin and build yourself some “back-to-nature” organically correct furniture and implements. While You are at it whittle together a good long bow and a few dozen arrows with stone tips, that You chip while singing “cumbaya – cumbaya”
Oh yes, cancel your subscription to Fine Wood Working, no need for it any longer.
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Just kidding. Buy two horses and a cow.
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Stig.
Steve, I wonder if you understand the way tort litigation works. If you install new safety features, your only concern is if you know or should have known that 1) the features don't work or 2) the features are so poorly designed that they lead to new dangers. I think this urban legend of litigation hampering innovation is getting so old. Did law suits stop the dubious innovation of Vioxx? In fact the number of law suits filed has been falling dramatically for over a decade.Think about it. Who stands to gain for passing around this myth? Big coporations. If they can get us to believe this myth and get "tort reform" passed, the big coporations can predict their liabilities from their own behavior - egregious or not. Harm to comsumers, factor it into your cost of doing business.
Let's see, it was only because an appeals court found that cigarette makers were protected by regulatory permission, that a $10 billion judgment was overturned in Illinois. The tort was based on the claim that the manufacturers defrauded consumers by selling low tar cigarettes.
Prior asbestos claimants are now "victims" of silicosis on the same x-rays, after most of the companies making the asbestos products are bankrupt.
"Should have known" is pretty iffy to disprove, especially in rust belt counties, like the Madison County, Illinois where I grew up.
Its not sufficient evidence that law suits are declining since that would also be the result if firms are playing defensive product development.
Torts do have a role in keeping companies concerned about the impacts of the products they manufacture, but its not a simple task to say a manufacturer's innovation brings no tort risk if it doesn't eliminate all risk of injury. If one were to resort to ad hominem arguements, it could also be said that minimizing the impacts of torts benefits trial lawyers.
Steve:Companies don't settle until you file a lawsuit. No incentive. The statistics show far fewer lawsuits FILED. I don't understand your examples. Yes, legislation can protect companies. So what.As far as abestos companies, are you trying to imply that their actions were okay? Do you know anything about the history of abestos litigation? The companies knew as far back as the 1920s that abestos exposure led to terminal conditions. They colluded to supress this information, denying liability and winning all the lawsuits while workers got sick and died. It wasn't until a lawsuit in the 1970s uncovered the records of the meetings from the 1920s that plaintiffs started to win judgments aginast these firms. The bankruptcy of these these companies is a good result just 50 years too late. Like I said before, I think it's a myth promoted to the US public to protect the greed of US corporations. Sadly, they obviously buy it.
Or, fewer lawsuits are FILED if there are fewer new products to argue that they are defective. The data are not sufficient to tell which is the "cause" of fewer lawsuits.
The cigarette example goes directly to the point that manufacturers take less risk if they are complying with regulation. European manufacturers were required to develop new machines to satisfy new regulations. US manufacturers are not.
Asbestos was used despite risks because it was valuable in reducing other risks. It was also used because it was mandated in certain government contracts. If it were such a known risk why was it not regulated. Lots of jobs carried risk of getting killed, and some still do.
If it is true, and it is, that risk of all kinds cannot be completely eliminated someone MUST make a risk/benefit decision. But the trial bar would put a company out of business if a company knew there was still some risk.
What has caused the mass of asbestos bankruptcies, is trial tactics that allowed a few legitimate serious cases to be lumped with a large number of questionable cases and, in a fair number of cases, questionable "evidence" of medical injury and product identification. It is my opinion that vast numbers of the asbestos claims were bogus. Because of the mass of bogus claims, the much smaller number of serious injury claims ended up with cents on the dollar. Estimates of the number of total potential claimants have been far exceeded--even though the estimates of mesothelomia, the most serious asbestos injury, have not been exceeded.
The shameful record of asbestos torts--the "elephantine mass" as termed by the Supreme Court should be a total embarrassment to all tort attorneys who have been just as capable of distorting the record and lobbying the Congress as big businesses have been.
Any injury can make a person see $$ in their eyes. It is the lure of the quick buck, and also not wanting to admit having made a mistake.
Week before last I cut my hand pretty bad on my table saw, doing something stupidly. I'm more embarassed than anything and don't consider myself a "victim." I would never consider suing the maker of my TS. But I bet I could find a lawyer who would take the case, even though I was clearly at fault.
More lawyers would have to earn an honest living, if people were willing to take responsibility for their own actions.
Just this week, I read about a woman who died of burns, after using a can opener on the bottom of a clogged can of hair spray unfortunately close to a stove and its pilot light. Her family is suing, claiming the printed warnings not to puncture or incinerate were insufficient. Anyone who has watched James Bond knows these sprays can be flammable. How could Unilever have prevented this?
It's hard to make things idiot-proof, because we idiots are so ingenious.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Hey Stig,
You gotta get with the global economy man! Think outsourcing dude. MiniMax and Laguna sell the machines that your talking about. Sure, they're designed and manufactured in Italy, but they put US lables on them. MiniMax is headquartered in Austin, Texas, man!
Volvo, Saab, Jaguar, all started as foriegn competitors, and ended up as American subsidiaries. What's more American than immegration?
BTW- we put a man on the moon with the help of Werner Von Braun, formerly of Germany.
Tom
"Hey Tom, MiniMax is headquartered in Austin, Texas, man?"
Which is why it has been a subsidairy of SCM, Rimini, ITALY (parent of SCMI) for so long, I suppose? It still exists in Europe, designing and selling European machines.
Good grief! You'll be saying Hanson is American next! ;-)
Stig
I think the answer about combis is that workshops are traditionally much smaller in Europe than in the USA. Space really costs us dear here, so machines in small pro shops need to be space savers. Same reason for us driving smaller cars - that and huge taxes on fuel!
Rick
"Europeans lead the way in woodworking technology by far."
Until the Chinese do for us! In the last 20 years we have seen the near decimation of woodworking machinery manufacture in both the UK (Wadkin - almost dead, Robinson, Dominion, Wilson, Startrite, Wadkin-Bursgreen, Cooksley, etc) and France. And we rarely see such exotric items as carbide-tipped bandsaws. I had to specially import my Lennox Trimaster IIIs and we haven't got much to compare with Tom Lie-Nielsen or Rob Lee (and yes, I know he's a Canadian) - alright there's Clico and Ray Iles, but they're hardly in the same league, size-wise.
You'd probably be amazed at how many people here lust after a Unisaw.... Not me personally, I drive an Altendorf, although I wouldn't mind a Yates American or Oliver some day......
Scrit
Europeans lead the way in woodoworking technology by far. They pioneered the slider, biscuit jointer, edge banders, construction line boring machines, slot mortisers, insert tooling, etc. Do you realize the slot mortiser goes back to the late 50's or possibly earlier. The american attempt at the slot mortiser is limited to the multi-router and the wirth machine who added more bells and whistles and it's more a step backward than forward in my opinion. There were a few attempts by Vega and a couple other companies but they were to far ahead of the clock here they faded out in a few years.
Good Morning Rick.
Yes, You have a point there, no question. What you mentioned has a lot to do with the reason why Torben at Laguna Tools started his company. Importing fine machinery from Europe is what he does.
I still insist that we here in the USA have the knowledge, skill and technology to compete with the Europeans. I am a transplanted / naturalized American. Came here from northern Sweden 1956. I am now retired from my aero space job. During my activity in that sector I witnessed some of the most amazing technology put to use. All American made. We can do it, I am convinced.
Stig.
I'm surprised that your wondering. Most people don't want a quality tool at an expensive price. They would rather buy a cheap tool and a cheap price and pretend it is a quality tool. If you look at some of the recent discussions on fine woodworking you will see this in action even here.
I have often wondered what went on at Powermatic. I've used a number of their table saws and they have all been well built quality machines. As you have pointed out the European machines have been adding important features for years. Did Powermatic ever have a Design Engineer working on updating an already well build product. Apparently not. The saw is still essentially the same design as it's always been. A new Powermatic 2000 is being advertised and I would bet that this saw was designed in Taiwan to some sort of overall spec. It may be a great saw but where was Powermatic 5 years ago?
I take a course at my local trade school one night a week to use their large jointer, planer, band saw and radial arm saw. Most of this machinery is old but is still able to withstand the ravages of a high school freshman mis-treating it. Not so the newer stuff. I recently had a discussion with the Machine shop teacher at a local vocational school. One of his biggest problems was school purchasing people who think buying cheap Chinese metalworking machinery instead if fewer quality built machines is a real bargain. These Chinese machines were currently all down awaiting parts/repair while the student were sharing the old Southbend and Bridgeport machines they have had for years. It has become a maintain nightmare trying to keep this cheap machinery functioning.
Last year I remember a person coming up to me who had noticed my using a handplane to do something and asking for some help. She had decided it might be useful to use a handplane so she went to the tool crib and did manage to find a relatively new Buck Brothers block plane and was wondering why she could no get it to work like the plane I was using. After looking at it and fiddling with it a bit it was easy to see nobody was ever going to be able to use that plane in the condition it was in. I went to try to find a better handplane and what I located was in no better shape then the the Buck Brothers. With tools available such as this it is no wonder that a person just trying to learn woodworking would conclude that handplanes are not a useful tool.
I've seen people spend in excess of a half million dollars on a new house where the Crown Molding is made from some kind of Styrofoam that is glued in place with a tube adhesive and painted. Sure is fast to install. I'm sure the people buying the house will never know the difference.
I know you will enjoy your new Knapp every bit as much as I would if I were fortunate enough to own one. I wouldn't spend much time waiting for the US to produce anything of comparable quality anytime soon. Better days are behind us.
Ron, I regret to say that you have hit the nail right on the head.Philip Marcou
Ron, I have to disagree with your statement. I dont think our better days are behind us. Take for instance the number of home shops that have a jointer in them. In the forties that would have been pretty uncommon. Look at the number of houses being built with that foam crown molding, in the twenties, thirties , forties, did you see many homes being built with any crown molding be it wood , fine plaster etc. It would have been included only in the finest homes certainly not in the 100 year old home that I am writing you from that includes a work shop with a bandsaw,table saw I think you get the picture. America produces what America demands look at our automotive industry today you can buy a much more dependable , efficient and powerful product than was available in the fifties and sixties. We dont build a great combination machine because most people who work wood wont pay for one.Even if a company such as powermatic were to make the large investment to design a truly world class machine that could be sold at $16,000.00 (a fantastic deal compared to european machines) how many would buy it? How many novice wood worker? How many advanced wood workers(with a shop full of tools that will produce the same work) would buy it? We dont have an american machine because the niche is to small for the risk. If every one who reads this forum would tell our producers what they want and not buy until they get we would have the machines that we dream of. But the fact is we told the asians in the 80s that we would like to see the same machines that they were building only with better fit and finish and a lower price. We didnt buy until we got it. Now we have it and ourselves to blame. Thanks AB
"Take for instance the number of home shops that have a jointer in them. In the forties that would have been pretty uncommon"
Actually it not uncommon, many shops did have jointers but they called them Stanley #7 and #8. They even existed before the electricity was available to power our "newer" jointers. Check out the tools on ebay. they are still easy to find. In fact there is still a user market for tools built in the 1800's. Yes I do own a power jointer and use it. I also have a # 7 Stanley which I also use. I don't "need" a power jointer in a home shop but they are convenient. Almost any large city should have a museum where you can see examples of furniture produced without the benefit of electricity.
"twenties, thirties , forties, did you see many homes being built with any crown molding be it wood , fine plaster etc"
Yes. I spent a couple of years buying houses from foreclosures and auctions and renovating them. Many of them contained crown molding and plaster. The moldings in the less expensive homes were not as elaborate but at least someone took the time to cope the joints rather then butt Styrofoam in place. you should see some of the doors that were built then including some excellent pocket door installations. there are numerous built in cabinets and other feature that were very well done. I have come to have a lot of respect for the people who built these houses. Yes there are also some real bad examples also but buy in large the older houses contained some fine examples of craftsmanship I simply find very rare today at any price.
"America produces what America demands look at our automotive industry today you can buy a much more dependable , efficient and powerful product than was available in the fifties and sixties"
Safer yes, If Detroit improved the quality it was in response to the Japanese car makers who still have a significant advantage. Perhaps this is why Detroit automakers are doing so well financially. They still don't get it.
"Even if a company such as Powermatic were to make the large investment to design a truly world class machine that could be sold at $16,000.00 (a fantastic deal compared to European machines"
I really wasn't talking about the large investment necessary to catch up but rather the seeming lack of meaningful gradual improvement. The TQM concept by Demming is an example of this. Demmings first point "Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of the product and service so as to become competitive, stay in business and provide jobs". That should have been taking place. Demmins second point "Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. We no longer need live with commonly accepted levels of delay, mistake, defective material and defective workmanship". But today we as consumers seem to have accepted the concept of defective workmanship as long as it's cheap.
Niche market? perhaps Felder, Rojak, Mini Max and a slew of other European company's have made a big mistake. If they changed their ways they also could be a Delta or Powermatic being bought out every couple of years buy the next MBA headed conglomerate.
"But the fact is we told the asians in the 80s that we would like to see the same machines that they were building only with better fit and finish and a lower price."
With woodworking tools they got the lower price part down really good not so with the quality. I'm still using a 50's Drill press I got from my machinist father because I can't find a replacement at any reasonable price which can perform as well. Same goes for a number of other machines and tools I got from him. My only complaint would be the lack of good safety features on some of the machines. I can still get spare parts after all these years. The planes I have are either old Stanley models which sometime have upgraded blades and chipbreakers or new Lie Nielson's. The Lie Nielson planes are cheap given the quality of the product. If you ever get the chance you should take a tour of Starrett in Athol MA. you would get an opportunity to see a company whose existence depends on producing a quality product. Unfortunately except for a few small owner operated operations I can think of few other large tool operations producing a high level of quality.
The reason we don't have more quality tools produced in the US is because, sadly, we have come to accept mediocrity as our new standard of excellence. Perhaps it is because we no longer have a good example to look at.
Hey Ron, I thank you for making my point for me. When america quit accepting pintos, vegas, late prodution stanley planes, america got civics, camrys and lie -nielsen. I think a closer examination of detroits problems will tell you that it isnt quality causing lack of sales, its paying for an aging work force. When detroit started to produce crap in the seventies america started to buy else where. Detroit responded and now produce lots of good product including Fords Gt , Dodge Viper, Corvette. These niche market machines are available because companies saw an oppourtunity to profit. I have to conclude that no American company has seen the same vision in the combination machine market. With that said I will admit to owning an inordinant amount of Millers Falls tools and I do hope that you enjoy your old stanleys as much as I enjoy the MFcos. As far as your drill press if it still works great why replace it at any price? My drill press cost me $89.99 at Big Lots, I put a $12.00 flea market chuck on it and it drills round holes. The original chuck was not a masterpeice. I knew that going in. I did have to set the machine up, build a table , But hey I would have done that to any machine old or new. Todays woodworker has alot to be happy about we have more choice than ever before, be it finding a great old tool or being able to buy a bench top planer thats inexpensive and works. Are there things not being manufactured that I would like to see? Yes, but I think we are getting alot of what we ask for and I see a bright future for america.Keep telling companies what you want,dont pay them for what you dont want. It is that simple. Be happy it could be worse. Much of what we made in the good old days was crap we are lucky that the good stuff made it to this century. If you bought your old stanleys then I am sure you hade the sheer joy of picking up an old plane hoping to fill a spot in your chest only to find a dumlop or a no name needed the sloppy fit says it all. Probably manufactured by one of the companies we respect for quality. I dont think things are all that different the markets have always responded to the customers. Have a great day the future really is bright. The glass is more than half full. Thanks AB
"When america quit accepting pintos, vegas, late prodution stanley planes, america got civics, camrys and lie -nielsen"
Actually, I think the the part of this discussion about automobiles is off track and doesn't relate to the discussion about tool quality. With tools we had quality tools which degenerated but in the case of American automobiles they were so bad it would be hard for there not to have been some kind of an improvement. And in the automobile case it was the Asian producers creating the quality product. Can Asia produce a high quality saw? Why not, but why should they if American's think what they are already producing is quality. You know the old Detroit attitude only this time is Asia.
"Todays woodworker has alot to be happy about we have more choice than ever before"
Lets see, you want that tablesaw that came out of the same Chiwanese factory in green or blue. There are few choices other then color and name tag in most cases. Certainly no American manufactured saws are being updated which is the original point of this whole discussion. If you feel the Chinese stuff is a usable quality machine then you have made my point that mediocrity has become the new standard of excellence.
"As far as your drill press if it still works great why replace it at any price"
Mainly because the speed changing is a pain in the butt along with the desire for a bigger drill press. General in Canada makes some reasonable ones and I may yet bite for a new one some day. General seems to be the only North American producer of quality woodworking equipment still around. You probably couldn't accuse them of upgrading there products any more then Powermatic and if you don't want to pay the price for quality there is always their General International line of Asian imports.
"Are there things not being manufactured that I would like to see?"
A quality Plane at a reasonable price that a beginning student could use. The LN or Clifton planes are a little pricey for the average person just starting out and learning how to tune a plane. Students are reluctant to purchase a used plane particularly when the have yet to learn what they should look for. There are obviously some bad used stuff on the market which are in need of major repair to bring them up to a usable level . It would be nice if a reasonable quality plane were available at say $100.00 - $125.00 that had the same quality as the original Stanley's.
I Have some Millar's Falls tools also along with Greenfield tool company. The Greenfield is an old adjustable mouth LA block plane from the 1800's that still works great.
"The glass is more than half full"
If you got the glass at Big Lots it was probably full when you got it and has a hole in it. Better check under the glass. ok, just kidding. Have a happy holiday time to hit the road.
Hey Ron good sparring with you! I got into woodworking because of an airport ,boredom and a rack full of magazines that didnt interest me. I happen to pick up a copy of a magazine titled Fine Woodworking. Two weeks later I was in an antique store with my wife and found a Millers Falls Jack. I was hooked. Wood working has been good to me. I hope we see those $100.00 high quality american planes.. thanks AB.
"I think a closer examination of detroits problems will tell you that it isnt quality causing lack of sales, its paying for an aging work force."
?
Detroits sales have been pretty good, but they have higher costs for health care than do companies who have not been here long enough to have a work force thats as old as theirs. A retired auto worker gets health care benefits the cost of which reduces profits. Its a big problem . I used the auto industry as an example of what happens when consumers demand change in product. Ron then questioned their profitability. I then responded with the comment about costs. The point was that america quit buying from detriot when quality fell. The companies improved quality and sales increased. If american consumers demand changes in product made for woodworking we will get change. Just be carefull of what you ask for.Thanks AB
It would have been included only in the finest homes certainly not in the 100 year old home..Geee Dang I grew up in a 'EXPENSIVE' old home... Queen Ann? Nor sure... BIG old house... All the rooms were plaster and crown molding.. Everything Hardwood..I think my GrandPa said he played about 5 grand for it?? I AM sure He said that!
I believe the reason we don't have North American manufacturing of combination machines is due to the type of workshops that we have always had compared to the ones in Europe.Where our businesses have always had the luxury of lots of cheap land to build on and thereby able to make bigger workshops , the boys on the old continent have not. That luxury allowed for the individual to move the work from machine to machine as needed. Each, setup for a specific / specialized task. The same guy in Europe had smaller workshops, so they bought machines that could do more in the space they had. Trading off being able to quickly go back and forth between operations, to having by necessity, better planing of workflow to minimize setup changes. Manufacturers, to meet the needs of their buyers, developed and produced what was asked for. The issues of evolution, engineering, ergonomics, quality, etc. all revolve around those needs.
"The same guy in Europe had smaller workshops, so they bought machines that could do more in the space they had. "
Oh, I can certainly agree with that from experience.
"Manufacturers, to meet the needs of their buyers, developed and produced what was asked for."
Yes, but in the case of European manufacturers they have always had to serve the trade market which has had both higher expectations and for at least thirty years higher legislative requirements placed on it. Until the mid to late 1960s Unisaws, American-manufactured deWalt RASs, etc. were available in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. What killed them off for us was unfavourable currency exchange rates and by the time that situation had changed US-made products were no longer legal here (safety requirements). After the dip in world economies in the mid to late 1970s, US woodworking machinery manufacturers, it seems, simply did not have the will to invest in either export markets or the future. The same lack of investment visible in domestic machinery market is just as visible with US industrial woodworking machinery over the past 30 or more years.
"Manufacturers, to meet the needs of their buyers, developed and produced what was asked for. The issues of evolution, engineering, ergonomics, quality, etc. all revolve around those needs."
Precisely. That is why the US furniture-manufacturing sector, what is left of it, has used a large amount of European machinery for many years. If you look at the entire woodworking machinery sector there are very few US companies still out there competing in their own domestic market, let alone internationally. Where are the companies of yesteryear like Yates-American, Oliver and Vonnegut? Who in the USA manufactures a sliding carraige panel saw to compete with the Altendorf, Martin, Panhans or a slew of other European makers? Where are the start-ups designing and making small industrial/hobby-market machines, like Robland and Felder were not so many years ago? I'm sorry, but engineering excellence or no the possibility of "beating the pants" off European competition simply isn't a reality any more - unless someone buys SCM(I) and moves it to Illinois ;-)
Scrit
Edited 12/26/2005 7:10 am by Scrit
QCInspector.
Hello and thanks for your comments. Work space - yeah, perhaps - but don't know. I have lived in the USA since 1956. Before that I lived in northern Sweden, where I was born and raised.
I have been doing wood work since I was a young boy, although never as a professional. My shop here in Valley Center is close to 900 square feet. I do a lot of veneering and just this year started out with marquetry. My next door neighbor is fairly typical of the wood workers I know here in southern California. He has a one car garage space that gets more crowded by every year that goes by. He is now thinking about knocking down a wall and adding on to the shop.
My cousin back in Sweden has taken over one of the old sheds on the family farm. there he has a shop that is 250 square meters or a little more than 2,500 square feet. He is also a hobbyist. My cousin runs an old cabinet saw, (don't know the brand). A few years ago he added a sliding table to it that he built himself. It works like a charm. I tried it out myself when I last visited him. My cousin got the idea from a US wood workers magazine. He built the sliding table from round tubing, roller bearings, steel and aluminum extrusions. He fastened the whole thing to his old saw, fiddled with it for some time and it works very good indeed. I guess he spent less than a grand on it. The main expense, he told me, was hiring a welder since he doesn't weld.
My neighbor and I talked about the sliding table that my cousin built, some time ago. And, that is how this ruckus started. I was simply wondering why a little shop somewhere that need work couldn't try something like a sliding table. Look, a sliding table is not a very exotic piece of equipment. Its concept is straight forward. All that is needed is a bit of planning and a bit of good old Yankee ingenuity.
One of the main reasons I bought the Knapp was exactly the sliding table. As I said in an earlier posting. The Powermatic 60 or 66?, that I had before the Knapp was a very good and reliable saw. The problem was that when I wanted to cross cut a four by eight plywood sheet on an angle I had to resort to the old hand held skill saw. Once again, I and many like me are buying machines like the Knapp every week of the year. Why not make them here in the USA?
Stig
There's another factor that I hadn't expressed in my post, and that is one of greed. Where many European companies are very old and are constantly innovating to stay ahead and plan for long-term futures. Many of our North American companies are younger, and look to the short-term, to make the money. Maybe a little leftover frontier Gold Rush get rich type mentality. Many are driven to make as much money as fast as they can. Since development of new products cost a lot of money. They have a tendency to continue making what they have before without change, because it doesn't have any additional cost, so it doesn't impact immediate bottom-line. It's a short-term thinking that ultimately ends a company's life. It's further pushed along by publicly owned companies that have to answer to shareholders that want to see big returns fast. That's why the multinational companies have no problem closing down older plants either completely or moving the work offshore, where they can get cheap labor, government subsidies and don't have to worry about pollution or the environment.There are small companies that are being innovative and have the potential to grow into bigger companies making newer products, and someday they may get into the combination machine field. One that comes to mind is JessEm. They have just introduced a sliding table attachment that retrofits cabinet saws. Unfortunately, it only has about a three-foot capacity, but it could be enlarged to do full-sized sheet goods work. And somewhere down the line they could team up with another innovative company such as SawStop to make a truly good sliding table saw. But that's really just a little bit of daydreaming on my part. What would probably be more likely to happen is European legislation might demand the SawStop type safety system be required on their saws. Then another round of innovation will be brought in from overseas to give you a better tool.I have absolutely no doubt in my mind, that tools of the highest quality and capability can be made here. But as long as corporations have a free hand to do as they like, they will. And when there's no more money here for them to put in their pockets, they'll just move on to where there is.I apologize for having too much pessimism. I do however wish you a Happy New Year. ;-)
"Where many European companies are very old and are constantly innovating to stay ahead and plan for long-term futures."
Actually, that isn't true of many of the players in this particular field. Robland (X-31, NLX, etc) is scarcely 35 years old, Felder/Hamer started in the 1950s as did SCM(I). Minimax (now part of SCM) and a large part of the Italian industry only started up in the 1960s. Rojek started out making copies of the SCM/Minimax range less that 15 years ago, although they're diverging somewhat these days. Can't say about Knapp, but they are now owned by Robland as well. Across Europe many of the older names like Guillet, Wadkin, Robinson, Dankaert, etc have all gone or are mortally wounded because they failed to move on over the last 30 years.
"What would probably be more likely to happen is European legislation might demand the SawStop type safety system be required on their saws."
A very definite maybe. We've tended to concentrate more on other safety aspects - braked motors, riving knives, limiter tooling, better guarding, etc. and we are just coming to the end of a cycle on CE marking, etc. which started in the early to mid 1990s. The SawStop technology might therefore be a while being adopted, especially as amputation risk can be considerably reduced by adopting other measures, such as training and use of existing measures. If enough pressure came from the USA it might well be adopted by manufacturers before legislation was enacted - not that uncommon in my experience, with legislation coming in later to "harmonize" the market.
"But as long as corporations have a free hand to do as they like, they will. And when there's no more money here for them to put in their pockets, they'll just move on to where there is."
I think you've hit the whole rape-the-planet globalisation thing on the head, there.
Scrit
Happy New Years to you also, QCInspector.
Greed? well I definitely do not think that greed is something that US companies and / or people have a monopoly on. I get reports from my family back in the "old country" of double digit unemployment all over the EU. Germany, France and Sweden are loosing many of their old companies to us here in USA. Volvo was bought by Ford, for example.
And, profit or the desire thereof is at the center of the free enterprise system or capitalism. By the way, the word capitalism is a dirty word in much of Europe as I learned during a recent visit to the country of my birth.
There is no question that the Europeans do manufacture some very fine machinery, wood working and other types. Having said that, I often point out to many of my native born friends here in the USA, not to be too enthralled with the idea that the European mode of living and manufacturing is so ideal. The EU is doomed to fail one way or another if the founders of that union do not jettison their insistence to turn Europe into another socialist super state. The elite in Brussels have lost contact with the European people. The result, was that the Dutch and even the French turned down the last resolution. The Brits did not even vote on it.
Back to the sliding table discussion. I know a man here in Valley Center, where I live. He is a very good mechanic with a good shop. I showed him my saw and asked him if he could manufacture a sliding table like the one I have. After looking at it for a while he said, yes. He told me that he would have no problem what so ever, manufacturing such an item. He is not interested however, since he is booked for months ahead making special jigs and fittings for the local and national manufacturers.
Once again, I claim that it can and should be done here in the USA.
Stig.
Sorry, but with I think your understanding of our politics and unemployment is a little bit skewed, especially when it comes down to the reasons for the rejection of the EU Constitution. Probably best not to deal with that issue here. That said you made a point about US companies being bought by American companies, e.g. Ford now own Volvo, Jaguar, AC and Aston-Martin (Ford Europe for many years kept Dearborn afloat), whilst GM own Saab, and BTW those companies have not moved manufacturing to the US in the main. Other European companies have bought into the US, ever heard of Hanson, or Renault (who run Nissan's car division and seem to have an interest in Mack trucks, I recall), or Stora (world's largest paper pulp firm - Swedish). It's globalisation, sadly. Capitalism isn't a dirty word in the EU - corporate greed and globalisation are. Socialism does, however, seem to be a misunderstood concept in the USA, at least by some (for example, it's not the same as Lenninist communism). I think that the system you're happy to live with boils down to your personal perception of the world you want to live in.
Back to the sliding table discussion. I know a number of good engineers some of who can do amazing work - they, like your acquaintance are skilled engineers with well-equipped businesses, but they lack the manufacturing capacity to build these machines economically in series. Combinations aren't built by small firms any more, here in the EU or anywhere else, so whilst he SAYS he could build one, would he be able to do so at a price the market would stand? Could he hit the quality mark consistently? No disrespect to him, but I somehow doubt it (assuming he ois a one or two man operation). Surely until a mid-sized US company shows an interest you guys will just have to get by with the plethora of European models available, unless the Chinese show any interest.
Scrit
Edited 12/27/2005 5:32 pm by Scrit
I think the most likely reason for the lack of a U.S. built combination machine is that it is to small a market plus the ease that it could be outsourced to China. Another consideration is patent infringement another can of worms. As far as the European distaste for Globalization I think they might protest a little to much, what they really want (and who doesn't) Is a global market for their products and steep import tariffs (just ask California wine producers) for their market. Anyway I sure would like one of the combination planer/jointers. Troy
Hello You guys out there, all of You!
<!----><!----> <!---->
Drop your blather about corporate greed, global rape, tort reforms etc. All I said when I started this on the forum was that I innocently wondered why a machine with a sliding table isn’t built in the <!----><!----><!---->USA<!----><!---->. After that I get lectured that I don’t understand economy and politics. This would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic. I wonder how in Sam’s Hill I made out so well here in the <!----><!---->USA<!----><!----> – being that ignorant.
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The facts are that <!---->Europe<!----> is to a large degree in the tank economically. I know the place. I lived there, I got out 1956 and, I will never return again.
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About the size of living quarters. Nearly 70 percent of the population in <!---->Scandinavia<!----> live in row after dull row of apartment houses not that much different from the ones You see outside <!----><!---->Moscow<!----><!---->. Closet space is sparse and room for wood working? LOL. That is why so many of my former countrymen belong to a woodworking club. The lucky ones live out in the boonies where there is more space.
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And Scrit, about socialism. We’ve got a saying out here where I live. “If it walks, quacks and swim like duck, Yep, it’s probably a duck”.
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I am now signing off for good, concentrating on what type of finish I shall use on the project I am about to finish.
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Stig. <!----><!---->
This is one of those IMHO statements, or perhaps just a meandering rant of generalized observations that seem to me to bare some relationship to the topic at hand....
Most people I know, including myself at times, have a bad case of instant gratification need. So we go out and buy three mediocre tools, instead of one good tool and wait for the others.
This is partly why in my view it is challenging to make living building furniture. Most people I know don't view for example the purchase of a bedroom set as a "buy one high quality" piece at a time approach; but rather as I want the whole thing now and in ten years I want to get an entirely new trendy style bedroom set. Hence the cost and quality need to be low, and why craftsmen won't find customers lining up at their workshop doors.
Heck, we view homes as something we will move through in an increasing cost progression.
The European woodworking tools I currently own (Knapp, Griggio, SAC, Meber) took a long time and a lot of money to acquire. So I don't go on nice vacations and I drive a pickup truck with a lot of mileage on it and so on to compensate.
And yes American industry could beat the pants off Europe in terms of innovation and design (our engineering schools are still the best in the world), but I don’t see it happening.
Hey there Bioman, nice to "meet" you again.
How is it going with your new shop and Knapp? I borrowed some of your ideas for hanging up the Knapp fences and all that stuff. I'll send some picture in the near future on the Knapp talk forum at Laguna.
Anyway, I agree with you. I worked with a Craftsman 10 Inch contractor saw and got really nice results from working with it. Still, it had its limitations. I made sliding cut-off tables and all sorts of jigs. It kind of worked but it never - ever will measure up to what I have now.
To hoist a four by eight plywood sheet up on the sliding table with that long fence, set the guide, clamp it down and push the whole business down the track with the thumb and forefinger on my right hand is pure heaven. That's all I can say.
All I said when I started what turned out to an inter-national discussion of industrial economics, was as follows...
Why is it that the US industry does not step up and compete with other nations, in the field of combination AND upscale wood working machines? There IS a market for them. It is proven time and again by people like myself. And you are right Bioman. US industry could beat the pants off any one - in any field. I really wish some company would take the bait and run with it.
Stig.
Nice to hear from you Stig, hope all is well. <!----><!----><!---->
I agree, it would be nice to see us back in the manufacturing arena competing in machine/design manufacture. <!----><!---->
If this were to happen, I imagine it would be US designed and manufactured overseas (<!----><!----><!---->Taiwan<!----><!---->, <!----><!---->China<!----><!---->). <!----><!---->
I suspect that even Knapp, Felder and others will eventually start manufacturing their units where the labor is cheapest. After all, it only takes one of their competitors being able to establish a modern factory with a QA program that meets their specifications in a second or third world country, to beat the pants off his competitors who are still manufacturing in the large industrial nations.
Don’t know how it will all turn out.<!----><!---->
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We from China,we are the manufactureer of the woodworking mahcines.
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