Hello all!
I am a complete newbie and haven’t done any woodworking besides the basic IKEA furniture building tasks. I’m looking for some general advice about how to proceed from here and where to focus my research.
My background is pretty simple, I’m a recent college graduate and have just purchased my first house. I’m looking into woodworking because I have always been a DIYer.
I don’t have too many requirements yet since I’m still getting started but the projects that come to mind are:
- Doing hardwood floors (actually bamboo) for the entire kitchen and living room.. maybe even doing the cabinets for the remodal if I’m up to it
- Building some basic contemporary furniture. The ones we love are very minimalistic such as a coffee table composed of a flat surface with four tappered legs and nothign else. Other furniture I’m interested in building are a dining room table, a bed frame, walkin closet shelves
Before this I almost went the route of buying all the major tools from craftsman because they seemed trustworthy and not toooo expensive and they also had those nifty laser marking tools. I was looking at a craftsman tablesaw because it looked sturdy and was under $200. My budget for now is maybe a grand or two for all the general tools I’d need (from rulers to biscuit joiners). So far I’ve been looking into circular saws, table saws, jigsaws, routers, biscuit joiners, belt/orbital sanders.
Any help in this manner would be really appreciated! I’m mostly looking for new equipment because my newbie eyes won’t be able to identify quality used equipement in good shape!
Replies
Here's some replies I've provided others just like you:
I'd get the following to begin:
Workmate
4 Large Hand Screws...come by sometime with a handful of 1" hardwood dowels and we'll make those together.
Sawhorses....we'll make those, too.
7 1/4" Skilsaw and combo blades
Framing and Combo Squares
Small Japanese Saw (dovetails and joints)
Block Plane...Stanley 60 w/ adj mouth from Ebay.
Marples Paring Chisel Set...Ebay
Wood Rasp...flea market.
Cordless Drill/Driver and bits...DW, PC or Makita
Drill bits...spade, jobber and forstner
16oz Claw Hammer
8' Folding Rule w/brass extension (inside measurements)
Marking/Mortise Gage
8" Bevel Square...used from Ebay
Chalk Box
Cabinet Scrapers
Fine back/dovetail saw
Simple mitre box(optional)
Medium and fine sharpening stones
1/4 3/8 and 1/2 inch mortise chisels
Something to whack the chisels with other than a hammer..mallet.
And eventually:
Grizzly or Jet Stationary Tools:
10" Table Saw
6" Jointer
12" Thickness Planer
Bosch Saber Saw
Selected Used Hand Tools from Ebay above.
Major Shop machines from Grizzly or Jet (Grizzly shipping is cheap).
Power Tools from Amazon.com Toolcrib.,,remans are good values.
Hand Tools (older Stanley, etc) from Ebay, Lee Veritas and Highland Hardware. Run the numbers on each purchase....fine common Stanley prewar planes and Disston saws can be dirt cheap on Ebay but some collectors items...Stanley 92 shoulder planes, for example...can be bought new for similar money.
Alternex,
Since you'll doubtless receive many suggestions from members of the Knots Brain Trust regarding specific tools and brands, I thougt I'd mention some of the things I wish I'd had when my interest in woodworking was ignited several decades ago:
A sturdy workbench
Membership in an active woodworking club (many friends and mentors)
A library card
A subscription to Fine Woodworking and Fine Homebuilding
A well-lit workspace (garage)
A well-equipped first aid kit
A fire extinguisher
The patience to wait until you really need a tool before you buy
The wisdom to know your limitations and work safely at all times
Good luck!
Paul
Greetings, Alternex -
Welcome to the forum.
If you're otherwise pretty handy, I would encourage you to tackle any and all projects around the house. However, I wouldn't personally put *any* kind of wood flooring in a kitchen. Just mem but water happens. Wood floors and dishwasher disasters don't make for a happy camper.
Bamboo flooring is great - I just finished a couple small rooms in this place we're remodeling. My only furstration was that on the main level we installed in-floor radiant heating with a 1 1/2" lift of concrete over the heating tubes. Meaning no nails - glue-down installation. The bamboo product I'm using is prefinished and the tongue & groove milling is really, really tight. Racking the planks together working over a glue bed is a real struggle to keep both one's hands and the finished product clean - glue free! (grin). The upstairs nail-down installation was quite a bit easier but I decided to buy the flooring cleat nailer instead of running off to the rental shop every time I got a room ready to install. Don't ask how much they cost!! At the same time, I wouldn't suggest trying to nail down a wood floor with hammer and finish nails, either.
I'm not totally sold on the pre-finished bamboo flooring I've installed thus far. You have to be extra-special careful not to damage the edges when you're racking the planks together to avoid even the least little damage 'coz it shows up big time. I'm thinking for the rest of the rooms I have to do I'll bite the bullet and install unfinished and have it finished in place. Besides, the finish they put on that stuff eats saw blades like crazy!! Dunno what it is but it's sure hard, albeit rather thin.
I used a Craftsman table saw for years and years. Craftsman is not a bad brand to get started with. I still have two old Craftsman routers that I press into service from time to time. Just don't push them too hard.
If you're looking to outfit a complete shop with even just the basics, $1000.00 will be a pretty tight budget I'm thinking. Definitely, the table saw would be the top priority for where you seem to be headed. A circular saw is right up there, too. Porter Cable has a newly released router combo that's a really good buy. You won't go wrong with that brand. Jet makes a good contractor's table saw, also log on to Grizzley.com and look at their offerings.
While it's not a finish tool, if you're involved in a lot of remodel work, a Sawzall (Milwaulkee's trade name for a reciprocating type saw) will come in very handy. I don't use mine all the time but when I need that type of saw, it's invaluable.
A good belt sander is like the Sawzall - could be a finishing tool in the right hands but given its power compared to a random orbital sander, I think I'd get the belt sander first then save for the orbital. Sanding's a pain in the you-know so I'm all for power options in that arena.
Where you can, and probably should blow your budget is in hand tools. A cheap power tool can be made to work well with patience. Cheap hand tools, chisels, planes, even framing squares and screwdrivers will lead to a lot of frustration. Get the best you can afford and treat them with the dignity they deserve.
Sorry for the long winded reply but your post made me reflect on when we bought our first house and I was in the same situation you're in. Eager to tear things apart and build something!
Go for it!
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
To Dennis and Alternix,
This isn't exactly what you asked but you mentioned the possibility of putting down some wood flooring and Dennis hit on the same problem I ran into recently gluing down three rooms of engineered wood (prefinished plywood planks). Directions tell you to tap the tounge and groove planks together with a wood scrap and hammer. As Dennis said, it's easy to damage the edges this way and as you progress down the plank, tapping away, what you've already tapped will tend to bounce apart again. I ended up laying only about 4 courses at a time. Takes a little longer but not as awkward or messy. Rather than the hammer and block I used a cheap 1 x 4 with a hinged "lever" at the working end (an 18" piece of the same 1 x 4 attached with a hinge). Wedge this between the 4 courses you just laid down (hand fit or gently tapped together) and the opposite wall and use the lever to press the courses together. While you apply pressure, apply pieces of wide masking tape about every 2 feet along the joints until you get another couple of 4 plank courses done. As you progress, you will have to keep cutting off chunks of the long piece of 1 x 4. And when you get close to the wall, you will just need a small block as a lever. Sounds more complicated that it is. It worked for me.
Good Luck
Bill
Bill -
Since flooring *was* part of the original question ....
I was cruisin' thru the Grizzley catalog last night and ran across a 25' ratchet clamp strap made just for squeezing together those pesky engineered flooring planks. Looks like one of those straps truckers use to secure their loads but the clamps appear to hook around the tongue of the leading strip to protect the finish.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
That sounds like a pretty good idea. I'll have to look that up just out of curiousity since I'm pretty well through with my floors.
Without seeing the setup, the only only drawback (no pun intended) I can think of is the speed and ease of moving it along to squeeze the boards and apply the tape. With the lever board, you can operate it with one hand or your knee the release it and move it along very rapidly.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill -
I gather if one were to be doing lots of T&G flooring, one would want to have more than a couple of these strap clamp thingies in ones tool box.
Another thing I just recalled about working with this fooring stuff. Be careful where you're kneeling when you're squeezing the planks or boards together! I pinched my the knee of my trousers in a joint once, along with a bit of skin as well.
Pay attention, Dennis!! (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Alternex, you've come to a great place (we're modest too, did you notice?). Dennis is fresh from the remodeling wars, so heed him well -- he can really help you out!
My $.02 -- first of all, lock up your Sears credit card! Once you've gotten some experience with power tools and learned to read specs and followed tools reviews (both magazines and personal reports at the forums) you will understand that Sears almost never puts out a tool that is the best quality for the money it costs! They tend to always find a corner to cut, and it's a corner that matters in the functioning of the tool. Oh....A tablesaw that's under $200 is not one that's going to be powerful enough or accurate enough to build furniture with.
Lemme see, I love spending other people's money. Here's a sample fantasy shopping trip:
Let's see, that's $1520 there. Leaves out a band saw, but if you're into Ikea taper style, you can get by without one. Might need a jigsaw though. That's as far as I can get tonight, time to go to sleep! I'll check in tomorrow and see what others have picked out for you, LOL!
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm new to this as well and recently asked forum members what they thought of Ridgid stationary tools. Based on responses, and some further research, I won't be going the Ridgid route (with the possible exception of the planer).
Apologies if it seems like I'm hijacking this thread but I'm curious as to why a number of forum members appear to be such Grizzly fans. One of the sources I've been checking out for opinions is FWW's 2004 Tool Guide. The Grizzly stuff doesn't appear to get very good marks in any category from the FWW folks. Comments?
DougW,
Perhaps Forest Girl is the best person to answer your main question. She is quite familiar with Grizzly and others and, I believe, bought the 2004 Tool Guide. I have not bought guide...from the clip that was provided on here it seemed rather simple in it's evaluations...that is not to say it wasn't correct, just not relevant to my needs. Also, no tool maker leads the pack in all tools all models. You'll also note that many who speak highly of the Grizzly TS, for instance, almost always say.."It's great...for the money"
I bought the Griz TS after determining my needs and studing the alternatives for more than a year..It's great. A nice used Unisaw was my other alternative...but I could not find one from a source I could trust.
Getting back to the orginal thread...let me add to FG's list...
Drill Press
Shop vac
power drills...one cordless, one with a tail
BG -
There are certain names like Powermatic, Delta, perhaps General that seem to get people's attention. Why? Because they are expensive. There was a time, not long ago, when money bought better stuff. The more money, the better the stuff. That's not to say lesser expensive tools are 'just as good' as these hallmark brands, not in the least. Just that I get the impression these days that all major tool mfr's are having to resort to a lot of off-shore manufacturing sites and in some cases it's been asserted (don't know if it's true or not) that a given machine with different brand names actually comes out of the same factory somewhere in Taiwan or China anyway.
So Why doesn't Grizzley get better marks in the reviews? I can only speculate - they don't contribute the advertizing dollars that some other brands such as Delta, Porter Cable, and so forth do; They cost somewhat less thus 'must be lower quality'; price carries a certain stigma - low price=low quality. In many, perhaps most cases the latter is true. But with respect to major power tools for even the serious hobbyist, I don't think Grizzley fits that mold.
I've been to the Grizzley showroom - I live about an hour from Bellingham. I've looked at their machines. The tops of their table saws puts my Delta Unisaw to shame as far as finish is concerned. The handwheels are bigger and operate smoother than mine. My Uni table was dished .010 out of the box and the extenstion tables took some horsing into submission to get them aligned with the table top. So what? For the difference in price I could have afforded another router if I'd bought the Grizz table saw. But that's water under the bridge.
I wouldn't suggest anyone simply outfit their entire shop with Grizzley tools, power or otherwise, just consider them as worthwhile alternatives. And don't forget after-sales service. Here Grizzley seems to stand above much of the rest of the crowd.
On the other hand, when I win the lottery I plan on upgrading all my major machines to Powermatic so my professional millwork and woodworker friends will be impressed! (just kidding!!!)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Grizzly "stuff" ... there's the rub. I'm not a fan of all "stuff" Grizzly -- I'm a fan of specific machines in specific price ranges, especially when they come with Grizzly's outstanding customer service.
Unfortunately, when FWW did their tool review, they compared an outdated bandsaw the 1019. That saw is ancient -- followed chronologically by the 1019Z, which I have in my shop, and the G0555 which was released ealy this year. The G0555 is a dream machine in the under-$500 range.
The 1023Z cabinet saw is the one 1023 saw I would not spend my money on, because I don't like that particular fence (which is exactly what they gritched about). I would get the "regular" 1023S with the Shop Fox Classic fence, a far better fence. Of course, if I had the $$ I'd get a PM66 or whatever, but for a core cabinet saw to build on, the 1023S is super.
I see they included the Grizzly in their benchtop planer review. I always suggest people stay away from that machine. This is an area where Grizz is far behinid the rest of the universe. Their stationary planers seem to be quite good, but they are not trying to compete against Delta, DeWalt, Makita, or even Rigid in the BT planer wars. Their planer does not have a headlock, which is why all the snipe.
My philosophy about tool reviews is: Read 'em all or don't read any, and back it up with listening to forum feedback. Any one tool review can be very misleading. They only look at one model per line usually, sometimes the mag might have "leanings" toward a certain line, they methods might not be thorough or objective. However, if you read 90% of the reviews that are written over a period of a year or two, you'll see commonalities between them, certain things that are consistently said about this machine or that machine, and if you combine that with thorough review of the catalogs from the different companies, you'll see what's being left out or overlooked. forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the note forestgirl. I'm quickly discovering that, with few exceptions, if you ask 10 people for an opinion on a particular tool type/manufacturer, you'll likely get 8-10 different responses. Throw in prod. reviews in the mag's, and it gets even more interesting. Everything's clear as mud <g>. The research continues.
My gosh that's a lot of feedback! Not only that but there's a lot of useful information that'll take me a while to absorb :) I'm at work now so I can't give a full responce yet but thanks a lot to everyone!
It seems I should probably spend more on a good tablesaw as that should be the focus of the workshop. With a good tablesaw (such as the Grisley $450ish one forestgirl recommended) would I still need a miter's saw? I'm hoping no since a good tablesaw should be accurate enough for miter's cuts.
As for joints, I was thinking of getting that porter cable one recommended in the '04 tool guide to create bicuit joints, that way I wouldn't need to get a router until later in the future (and I'm also not interested in doing too many decorative grooves that a router would be good for).
I'll probably get a good circular saw (tool guide recommended a hitachi or porter cable), and also look into sanders (dunno yet which type, there are so many! ie belt, random orbital, mouse)
Alternex.
I'm dubbing myself the cheap goat here. To answer your question, I would hold off on the miter saw if you buy a good TS, either contractor or cabinet. After I received my new TS I hardly ever use the miter saw. But, even with the TS you need a miter...such as Incra...and that is not cheap ($140 ish). I would also go for a used circular saw...I bought one for $10 bucks and put a good Freud blade in it...cuts beautifully.
You need a router for a ton of stuff ...you need that. You can buy a set of dado blades for the TS..but they are expensive too...the router can do it with a straight bit. The point being to pace yourself...once I got my dado blades..I built a router table and put the router in there. I have not bought a jointer either...no space...I do that with hand planes and the planer. Again, you'll need hand planes anyhow..buy them first and then add the jointer when you can...
WRONG !
If you ask 10 woodworkers for their opinions, you will get at least 12 opinions... ;-))
"you will get at least 12 opinions... ;-))"
...and 13 arguments.
Just pick and choose which direction you want to head in and start making sawdust on some simple projects, which is the only important thing anyway, eh?
FWW is a well respected mag, but far from the final authority on all things tools. They recently had negative comments about the PM64a....does that make it a bad saw? Nah, just one bad egg out of hundreds they make. Over the years Grizzly's received many positive comments from mags....usually a "best buy" and such, because that's exactly where they aim. In the September 2001 issue of Wood, the Griz 1182HW 6" jointer took the #1 spot over a Jet, Ridgid, both Deltas, and Bridgewood. The 1023S w/SF Classic fence raises lots of eyebrowse. Reviews are what they are, and need to be taken for what they are. They're riddled with human opinion, politics, diplomacy, etc.
A couple of years ago one of the mags did a contractor saw review (it was either Am WWing or PopWWing). The Ridgid 3612 was included, and they noted a "finnicky" fence, "weak" motor when ripping thick stock, "finger pinching" grated wings, and made comments about the lightweight aluminum trunnions vs cast iron on all the others. Even with all those complaints, they rated it as a best buy. I got the feeling the reviewer didn't think alot of the saw, but was told where to rank it. They basically yawned at the General International 50-185 that FWW recently picked #1 over just about every decent contractor saw and hybrid available for under $900. Basically the reviews are useful for getting model #s, price, and features etc. ....other than that, the conclusions are entertainment.
Unless your in a big hurry, I'll advise that you watch your local classifieds. Hardly a week goes by that an entire hobbiest shop doesn't go up for sale.
You didnt mention your experiance. When someone does that I assume he is inexperianced with both tools and wood and home repair. I suggest taking some wood working classes at a local junior college. it will serve you well in many ways. One you will get experiance using the toolsand then be able to decide on your own which ones will fit your needs. But 2nd and more important you'll learn to work safely. 28 years in the trades and I still have all my fingers.....
if you want to learn home repair dont go to your local HD for help. go to a junior college and learn basic construction also....IMO
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
Hi and welcome to a great hobby. The cost of getting started can be a little daunting, but can be done with value in mind, and doesn't have to happen all at once. The most important tool is you....you'll find a way to accomplish a given task with what you have available. Also, think long term....you'll be saving thousands of dollars on furniture over the years, might make few bucks on the side, and good cast iron tools tend to hold value remarkably well, so buy the best quality tool you can afford that will suit your needs. Tools that you buy twice are the most expensive. It's entirely possible to get some of the more critical tools within your budget. Your needs will vary depending on what you want to build, but the basic work triangle in most WWing shops consist of a good table saw, a planer, and a jointer to make stock flat and square. There are ways to get by without any of these, but it makes WWing more difficult. Other invaluable assets in my shop are a good basic work bench (which you can make yourself as an early project), a router and router table (which you can build), a jig saw, sander, and drill. Dust collection is really nice to have, and is better for your health. Nothing wrong with having a circular saw around for cutting sheet goods either. A drill press and band saw can replace hand held tools at a later time if you want to step up. You can also add a biscuit cutter for joinery at a later time.
In most shops the TS is the most critical machine for precision WWing. A suitable TS can run from $300-$2500. Do lots of research for your saw. The four different styles are benchtop, contractor saw, cabinet saw and hybrid. Benchtops are not generally considered suitable for longterm precision WWing. They're small, lightweight, have sloppy fences, loud universal motors, don't last as long, and don't maintain value as well. The most common WWing saw is a contractor style saw with a 1-1/2 to 2hp induction motor with belt drive, mounted to an open leg stand. A contractor saw will handle the vast majority of cutting tasks you'll have and run from < $500 to > $1k. The desirable features are a rugged precision fence, solid cast iron wings, standard miter slots and a good quality miter gauge. (Value names like General International, Grizzly, and Bridgewood have saws like these for < $650, while Delta, Jet, and Powermatic have comparably equipped saws in the $750-$900 range.) Less expensive, but still suitable saws will offer a less rugged lower precision fence and steel wings. (Delta and Jet both have decent saws in the $500 range, while Grizzly offers a steel winged version with a better fence for ~ $500, and Ridgid offers a saw with solid cast iron wings, but a lighter weight fence for < $600.) Full blown cabinet saws have the same wings and fences that the better contractor saws offer, but have much more robust trunnions and sport 3hp induction motors in an enclosed cabinet for excellent dust collection. These start at around $900 and are what most experience WWers aspire to own. The hybrids sport motors in the range of 1-3/4 hp mounted in an enclosed cabinet similar to a cabinet saw, but the trunnions and motor size are more like a contractor saw. The hybrids cost about what a decent cabinet saw runs and IMO don't offer a fence as good as other saws in this price range, hence equal a poorer value, but they do offer good dust collection and optional sliding tables. Jet and DeWalt both offer a basic hybrid for ~ $850, add $350-400 for the slider. (Note - a slider can be added to almost any saw). Buying a good used saw is a decent way to stretch a budget. (Opinion - I'd recommend staying away from the no-name brands, and also think you'd do better with one of the names mentioned above than with a new Craftsman brand saw)
- A 6" jointer will run ~ $350. Grizzly, Sunhill, Bridgewood, Yorkcraft, Ridgid, and Delta have machines in this broad price range that will do the trick.
- Basic portable planers start in the $200 range. For <$300 you can get with a cutterhead lock to reduce snipe. (Delta, DeWalt, Ridgid, and Grizzly are the better values IMO)
- Set aside at least $35 for a good carbide tipped blade from Amana, Freud, Forrest, CMT, Systemic, Tenryu, Ridge Carbide. Leave some money for basic router bits as well. Buy several clamps - pipe clamps, hand clamps, spring clamps, etc. (Clamps are one area that I don't mind buying cheap from places like Harbor Freight). A hand plane, and some chisels are really nice to have to get started.
Seeking information from sales people, friends, forums, magazine reviews, tool guides, etc., can be useful, but take it all FWIW, because in the end you'll need to make a choice that's best for you and live with the purchase. Everyone "loves" the choice they made....that doesn't necessarily mean you will. Sorry for the long posts, but hope it helps a bit.
I want to add 2 things:
1) I own and use a Craftsman table saw, but want to recommend that you avoid the one you're looking at, and any other in that price range. I started with one of those, but was forced to upgrade in less than a year. Here's why: a) the fence is a pain in the #### to get square (parallel to the blade, to be more accurate). It doesn't just square itself (not even close) as you lock it down, like a better fence does. And, the table shape and size make it impossible to upgrade to a better fence, (although you might be able to build your own, assuming you had a table saw with a square fence). You can square the thing, but can't square it into a an exact position, i.e., distance from the blade. Every time you diddle with the fence to square it, you move it too close or too far; I had thought there was something wrong with me or some elusive secret to accuracy that I'd missed somehow; well there was. Better tools. Sucks, 'cause I don't have much dough, but it's quite real. On the other hand, there is a point of diminishing returns, too. I bullied Sears into swapping out the original saw that I'd bought toward an upgrade, a belt drive job with a router table incorporated into the design. I've been thrilled. That saw's on sale right now for $439, I believe. Yoiu might get a better saw, maybe even for the same money, but my Craftsman does what I need if I'm thoughtful and careful, so you don't have to spend thousands to start. b) The arbor (the bolt that the blade fits onto) is too short. Eventually--soon, actually--you're going to want a dado set/blade. This is an adjustable width blade designed to cut square-bottomed grooves, but it has a bazillion uses, and you WILL want one. The arbor on the saw you're looking at won't house an adjustable width dado--too wide--and will only hold 1/2" of what they call a stacked dado. Neither of these problems is upgradable, and there are other issues--tables aren't flat, 10 x as loud as a belt drive saw, and more.
2) Go to the library. Go to Barnes and Noble. Read, read, read.
Good luck,
Charlie
Alternex
I will disagree with some of the posters. If you are going to do hardwood floors, a good compound miter saw would be very useful, more than a table saw. The table saw is more important if you were going right to furniture.
Also, don't forget CLAMPS. And safety equipment including dust control.
stantheman,
thanks for the feedback! You say that a compound miter's saw would be helpful for doing hardwood floors but it's not neccessary is it? Since I'm on a wife-imposed budget I'll probably have to use a table saw and be very detailed with it. The table saws usually come with an adjustable fence on the miter's groove that can be set to different angles, right? But why would I even need angled cuts for hardwood floors - wouldn't the conforming cuts usually be very angular (ie 90 degree corners)? Or I can buy one of those $70 delta miter's cuts at loews and be very careful with those (because at that price I'm not expecting them to be very precise).
Anyways doing hardwood floors is a one (or two or three) time event whereas I expect to be making furniture continuously.. therefore that's where I want to focus my attention right now. Would it be possible to get a really nice table saw (grizzly that forestgirl mentioned) and just stick with that for now and see what I can do with it? Of course I'll also get the smaller obvious items such as levels, clamps, circular saw, etc etc. I don't want to jump in this and get every tool there is!
thanks again for the help everyone!
The downside of using a tablesaw to cut floor is that you would be moving the stock across the blade, rather than the blade into the stock. When you're working with long pieces, that's a pretty tricky and awkward. The wood has be perfectly stable (still against the miter gauge) to get accurate cuts. I wouldn't want to try this with anything longer than 3 or 4 feet.
I have a "cheapie" 8-1/4" CMS from Delta that I bought several years ago. It does OK, though I haven't put enough time into it to learn how to get picture-frame-quality miters. forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie -
The only pieces of T&G flooring you have to cross cut, or rip for that matter are the ends or edges next to walls. Most every wood flooring material I've researched for our remodel project specifies at least a 3/8" gap between the floor and any solid bearing abuttment like wall framing in order to let the floor move. This gap is covered with the base, of course. Thus any end cuts, crosscuts, or rips, too, are really rough cuts and don't have to be finished by any means. All the end joints in the field of the floor are, or should be endmatched T&G as well.
Or am I missunderstanding the issue in discussion?
As for prefinished flooring, unless someone else has mentioned it before - the finish they put on this stuff is death to edge tools! I thought I'd be smart and try planing off the finish of some of this bamboo I'm using and wasted a set of jointer knives in one pass. Dumb idea! It hasn't done my nice Forrest blade any good, either!!
I've got a cheap-oh carbide blade in my old chop saw that I use for the flooring from now on.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
For most wood floors all you need is a rough cut. But if you're doing picture frames, direction changes, etc, you need to make some very accurate cuts.
When doing a hardwood floor, I usually just carry a cordless circular saw with me. As you said, the base will cover your cuts, so just make a mark with a pencil, and eyeball your line. No need to be anymore precise.
Jon Blakemore
Alternex
Just my unprofessional opinions. If you are like me, your "job" is maintaining a house, while woodworking is your hobby. I spend more time on household chores like fixing the deck, framing, or flooring, then on woodworking for fun. I find that the C-M saw is much more useful for the homeowner thing than having an expensive tablesaw. Yes you could cut all your flooring on the table saw with a slider, but like Forestgirl said, it is hard to keep long pieces stable. You will eat up a lot of time setting up for each cut. Heck, you could do it with a circular saw, jig saw or handsaw if you take the time. One nice thing about the C- M saw is that it is portable - you take it right to where you are working, instead of running downstairs or out to the garage every five minutes when you need to cut. Plus it will be more accurate (with stops)and smoother cutting (cross-cut blade). You will find it very useful in woodworking too. Even though I have a sliding table on my tablesaw, anything under 6" width (picture frames, table legs, boxes, etc.) gets cut on the miter saw. Yeah, one of those $100 Deltas will work fine. But you can get as good a one as you will ever need for $200-300. Just remind your spouse that a Home Depot /Lowes gift certificate is pretty close to the perfect gift.
PS If you are budgetarily challenged, look into the Ryobi BT3100 table saw at Home Depot. For $300, you get a sliding table and a true riving knife for safety. Yes, the pros look down on it, and it is unlikely to be inherited by your grandkids, but by the time you outgrow it, you will have gotten your money's worth. You will also have learned what to look for in a good tablesaw.
Again, just my opinion.
Stan
My experience is that a "wife imposed budget" has a lot more dollars in it than time.
I'm sure many of us know the phrases "I want it finished by ..." "why is it taking so long?"
Sliding compound mitre saws come in sizes smaller than 10 or 12 inch. for example Makita make a 7 1/4 in one. For flooring and most trim work this will be more than big enough and wont cost the earth. Most importantly, it can be set up where you are working saving hours in trips to and from a table saw. Based on my own experience with flooring, the cheapest option is a good back saw and mitre box, the fastest is a sliding compound mitre saw, the slowest is a table saw — walking to and from the saw not only takes forever, it wears you out further reducing your productivity.
Ian
I'm posting to this old thread to give an update. I can't thank you all enough for all the help you've given - I must've re-read this thread a hundred times because of all the info!
Anyways I'm still buying my tools, slowly but surely. A few weeks ago I ordered the Grizzly G0444 and I finally finished building it today! I've got to say it's a really amazing table saw. I've played with a lot of different saws at all the local tool places and this grizzly really stands above the rest. The fence is pretty much perfect!
My next purchase is the Porter Cable plate joiner for biscuit joins. That will really help because I plan on making a few tables.
Down the road I'll probably get a thickness planar (maybe the Delta that some recommended here) but I'll try to do without the jointer. I know I'll need all three (table saw, planar, jointer) for nice stock wood for furniture but this'll sufice. I'll attempt to create stock wood by running wood through the ts then turning it around and getting the other end. Then I'll use the planar for the top and bottom.
There's so much more to learn.. I still have a lot of reading left regarding different types of wood and staining. I don't have any questions this time around but thanks again for all the info!
You don't need a biscuit jointer to make tables. I'm assuming you think you need biscuits to make panels. I never use biscuits for this. There was a recent article on making panels in FWW I recall that gives a good foundation for this.
Welcome to the site!! I just recently joined it myself. It's nice to be able to consult some different people interested in woodworking about projects and get some new ideas and advice. Who knows, maybe it will save a future project from turning into firewood!
About buying tools, I started buying tools for my shop, (ok 1/2 of my garage,) about a year ago. I wish I would've known about this forum then, I might have made some different purchases. I bought a 10" Craftsman table saw, (make sure to get a belt drive motor,) and got it on sale for I think $399 regular $499. I wouldn't want anything of lessor quality than that because it's crucial if your project has any hope of turning out right that you have accurate cuts and enough power. My saw is 3hp and again I wouldn't want anything less than that unless your're just cutting plywood or thinner stock.
Well good luck with tool buying, hopefully you can get some good deals. I'm looking for some tips on buying a router and this forum has been helpful.
For an entry level table saw, I would pick up a Sears or Bosch. Sears are a good buy because you can pick them up used. I would really really try to get something used here.
Yes, as mentioned, the fence is c r a p, but as a beginner ya'all won't care, and yes the trunions (truing the fence to the blade) suck, but you'll learn alot about how to adjust it. If you like the hobby, then buy a serious table saw.
You can pick up a used Sears for about $200.
Yes, you will need a miter saw, and again, I would shop ebay in your area or garage sales. $100 should do you fine. Ryobi is a very cheap model, which is junk, but will work.
You'll need a good skill saw, a router, some straight edges, a driver drill, and some jigs. Resist the temptation to buy everything at once, and buy only what you need for this project.
Be aware that you don't all these tools to make a cabinet. You can actually make them with a handsaw, straight edge and a few chisels. In other words, don't go on a Sears shopping spree just because you can. There are many many ways to make a tenon for example (by hand with saw and chisel, by a tenon jig, by a radial arm saw, by a table saw, with a router) and there is no "right" way; only the way that you know how to do with the tools you have.
You can do this for under $800, guy.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Alternex
I'm not gonna argue the pro's and cons of start up spec machines; the rest of the replies have that pretty much covered. One thing that seems to have been overlooked however is education. Courses are a fine wa to learn, but can swallow a small budget quickly. It's only recently that I've learned that what I SHOULDA done years ago was buy some books... spend time improving the single most important tool in your shop... You..
I'd strongly recommend a few good basic joinery books, the book list here at Taunton is a fine place to start. One in particular I've found to be worth it's weight in gold is "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery" by Gary Rogowski. Goes into detail about how to make just about every joint there is; lists alternative methods for making them too. Reading it, you'll get a feel for what joints suit the designs you want to build. Form there, you can back engineer your shopping list to suit your NEEDS... rather than what you guess is gonna do the job.
One other point that I feel needs to be re-stressed. Irrespective of which tools / machines you buy or who makes em, reguardless of how well / badly they perform, the one thing they ALL excell at is making one HELLOVA mess. Plan for it right at the outset. Chips and dust need to be controlled. I've learned the hard way that you can't file dust collection under "later". For small tools (hand held) buy a shop vac with a tool activated PTO. For larger tools, check out the following link. http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/Measurement.cfm
One lesson at my expence. Rather than sacrafice quality in an attempt to cover every class of machinery quickly, buy the best you can afford. If a tool catches your eye and you KNOW you can use it, save for it.. it'll wait for ya.. In the meantime you'll learn inventiveness... how to work around the lack of some of the specialist tools to achieve the same end.
Lastly, don't be afraid to ask.. better to ask twice than mess up once. The reg's here are a fine bunch of ppl... they won't see you stick if they can help.
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,
I'm new to all of this myself and agree with your common sense suggestions. I picked up Gary Rogowski's book last week as well as Andy Rae's 'Furniture & Cabinet Construction'. Both books are very well done and I'm absorbing a TON of info. that will no doubt benefit me down the road. Can't wait to put some of this stuff to practice.
Doug
I'm more or less new to the finer woodworking, but I spend a good portion of time working construction. I personally love mitersaws. They are fantastic. I also recommend, since a bandsaw is probably not in your budget, getting a good jigsaw. That should keep you going for a while on the curved cuts. Also, a real good Skilsaw is great, especially with a good guide. I have a Skilsaw HD77. It's the original wormdrive, and I've never been on a jobsite without at least 2 of them there. Everyone I've worked with has one.
the tools I use to install hardwood floors are a mitre saw, jig saw, a portable table saw and a flooring nailer. You can basically do all your cuts with the jig saw but the table saw works well for the final rip cuts and the mitre saw is fast for the crosscuts and you will need it to install the base molding. The jigsaw is for any cutouts and cut arounds you have to do. Some use a TS for that but it will leave a kerf on the underside which will show up after the first refinishing sanding. All the cuts made to the flooring will be covered by moldings so they can be rough. Don't even think about laying the flooring without a flooring nailer, it drives the nails into the tongue at a 45 degree angle which in effect forces the boards together straightening the bent ones.
good luck
kev
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