I’ve got a pile of Phoenix Biocomposite “Dakota Burl” I want to use it for the field in some cabinets I’m making and I can’t find a finish that lights my fancy. I need suggestions.
To the untrained eye this is particle board. It is composed of the same adhesive that particle board has except that this is made with Sunflower husks. The effect is striking in its natural state but it has a definite yellow/orange cast similar to the particle board when sanded smooth (150 or so)and put under clear polyurethane (Flecto Professional Matte)
I’ve tried Watco walnut, dark walnut, cherry, natural, under the Polyurethane and none seems to mute it significantly or conceal the rawness of the stock. I’ve even tried combinations of 3 stains trying to get the magic to occur and it still looks raw. I plan to set it in frames of Walnut for the doors.
So any suggestions as to how to make it more muted / burlish? One buddy suggested bondo then paint. 😉 I’d like something a little more subtle and classy. Suggestions?
Replies
Anyone? Someone must have put stain to this type of composite material.
Booch,
Sorry I won't be of any help. But I am curious because I have never heard of this product and my relatives live in the heart of dryland wheat country where many farmers switched from grain production to sunflowers for oils. Could you tell me more about PB made from sunflower shells?
sawick
http://www.phenixbiocomposites.com/
Is the manufacturer in Mankato Minnesota. They have some finish instructions but it is pretty one dimensional that basically makes it impervious not visually perfect. I'm looking for options.
It is a pretty product but I'm rolling the dice that this is the way I want my kitchen/house to look.
In a previous issue of Fine Homebuilding it was shown as the cabinet material for a house designed as "Green " and built for the big wheel of the grunge rockers of Seattle,(or possibly a Grateful Dead manager... I can't remember) It looked sharp at the time but I'm losing the flame of creatitivity and need a boost. I'll try to find the back issue.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Booch,
I checked the site you gave and noticed that the company says that their product can be finished with conventional stains. But I wonder if they mean pigmented, oil, dye, or water based? Thanks for the info and good luck. I filled out the form to get literature from the company. I am always looking for 'green' building products.
sawick
Turbo & Paul S seem to think my future lies in shellac.
I've never gone there before and it is probably about time to try. Frankly I've avoided it because I like the occasional beer or glass of wine and alcohol based finishes have become marked up in my life. I've even refinished a sideboard and a table because they couldn't last thru Thanksgiving dinner.
Since this is a vertical surface I can abide the risk. Maybe just for color and depth then overcoat with a Poly? I'll have to give it a try.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Booch,
I received the samples from the Mankato company. Cool stuff especially the products that mimic stone! No local lumberyards carry this product so I may special order a few sheets to see how it works. Little bit pricey though. I did notice discrepancies in their marketing pictures which worried me. The product samples have a disclaimer against using in damp locations (kitchens and baths)yet the photographs show the products as table tops, bar tops and the like. I am not sure how to rationalize this difference.
sawick
Think of it like particle board but made of more renewable materials like wheat chaff, Sunflower seed hulls and waste paper. As a product of quality it is that. Finish and hardness are exemplary compared with mill run composite materals. Good Stuff in short.
In terms of the moisture area problem it think it is like all materials of that type. Enough water and plywood as well as OSB delaminate and get funky. Your job if you choose to work with it is to encapsulate it in finish that is water impermable thus retaining the integrity of the stuff.
Understand this is a 4 to 20 man shop garnering materials, processing, storing, selling, billing, and shipping. I don't think they have the marketing dicked yet. Just a couple of misplaced words in advertising or an overemphasis on the wrong property can make a product seem other than it is. You'll be satisfied with the product the samples are exactly like the sheets you get.
Strange sheet sizes. Make sure you find out what is available. I almost stopped for shellac yesterday to try my Phlegm coat on the Dakota burl. I figure a light walnut topcoat will make the depth greater in the finish.
Good luck.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Forget the shellac! Why court trouble with durability problems? Use tinted polyurethane varnishes instead. You can thin them as much as you'll want to. when you are done with them you'll have a really tough finish. Tinted CV finishes are great too, though a bit more dangerous to work with.
I think Clay is right on this one. Shellac is very old technology, and there are numerous products out there that beat it hands down in every way and form. Just like "some" people still use hide glue, "some" still use shellac. For a restoration or reproduction, I can see using it, but anything else, not...
Jon
Never used the tinted Poly on a good project. I bought a can of someone's light brown poly and was disappointed that it didn't end up like Walnut or some other. This Dakota burl should take a coat and just lower the contrast a bit. I'm not sure what look I'm trying for, but I haven't found it yet.
Good suggestions, Shellac wasn't high on my list of things to learn how to manipulate.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
I often do my own tinting using artist's oil paints (universal tinters would work too, but I can get a higher quality of pigment with a better "pedigree" in artist's oils). I can tell you from experience that finishes, of this type, done with numerous lightly tinted coats and sanded lightly between coats, will have a clarity and depth that no stain finish has ever matched.
I thought Oil paints, artist type, would be a gritty particulate type of color. (I guess I envision the old masters grinding local and exotic rocks for colors. Etched in my memory is an old oil painting I saw where the artist embedded pearls and jewels on the canvas. Further I visited Sienna Italy once . The source of sienna brown (the rocks)) I'm then assuming you take these oils in one or more colors and dissolve / mix them into the Polyurethane finish?
I Think it would be great to co-mingle these items. Do I have an accurate picture of the tinting process?
The colors of the analine type aren't really controllable for me. I can control them when applied but the color mixing is always a step away from my vision. Ie mix powders, then constitute, then apply. Or mix tinted liquids (dissolved analine) and then apply. The alcohol goes so deep so fast it is too late before you can stop it. In a similar nature the same dye when mis-shaded can only be tinted deeper. Even straight alcohol doesn't leech out the excess color.
So back to my question. Regular oilpaint mixes into Polyurethane? or varnish or ?
Thanks for your insight.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Artist's oil paints from quality manufacturers are made with pigments ground pretty much as finely as technology will allow ... and that is VEEERRRY fine. Some pigments will grind finer than others, but all artist's grades are extremely fine. They are ground to nearly the molecular level ... so fine that they can mimic many of the effects of dyes. The pigments that have more translucent undertones will make clearer glazes ... but, except for white, nearly all the more common pigments can be used to make very clear glazes. I think you would benefit from developing skills with glazing techniques. Glazes (unlike stains) may be built up of many layers. In that way you can very subtly approach your final depth of color and tone. I usually start with a tint that will acheive something like %60 to %70 of my ultimate color, and then readjust the tone and depth (darkness or intensity) of my finish with each succeeding coat. I try to leave very little or no color work for the final coat, using it mainly as protection and to acheive the proper sheen. < (this on the finest work anyway, some jobs the coats are kept to a minimum and each one has to do maximum work)
You can tint polyurethane or any other oil base varnish this way. I also tint laquers and catalyzed varnishes and laquers this same way. More clear medium (any of the afore mentioned coatings) will make your mixes more translucent. More pigment will make them darker. If your previous coat has left the finish too reddish tint the next coat with a bit of green and vice versa. If the finish tends to be darker than you want it you can lighten with yellows and tans ... even whites if neccessary. Remember that the more pigment you use, the less visible your original grain will be, so try to avoid overstaining and then having to lighten back in most cases.
I think that you would get a lot of good general info about pigments and glazes from Ralph Mayers "Artist's Handbook". It is the gold standard in artist's reference books and most libraries are likely to have one in their reference departments.
One other tip: start your mixing with a small amount of the medium and use a firm bristled brush for the mixing, then add the rest of your medium after the chunks of pigment are all smoothed into the solution.
One more thing, the universal tinting pigments are the ones that are used to mix stains at the paint stores. They are much faster to mix with because they are already more liquid to begin with. I am sort of a fanatic about using the very best, which is why I usually use the artist's oils. You can match (or beat) any ordinary stain with the universal tinters.
Booch - try some garnet shellac on the doors. Or you could mix you own colored shellac by adding dye to it to get any color you want. This should bring out the grain and figure. I haven't finished the composite you're working with, but have had very good success using colored shellac or lacquer on highly figured woods that looked washed out, too dark, or mottled with an oil-base finish. Dyes will most likely cause serious blotching, but it's worth a try on a test sample.
Use dewaxed shellac to get the color and seal the wood, then use a durable finish (like varnish) over it for protection.
Paul
F'burg, VA
No incompatability with the shellac and the Poly (varnish)? What have you used?
I generally use the Flecto Varathane Pro Polyurethane as it is as thin as cough syrup and flattens and spreads well. The finish (the oil based) is like teflon, hard yet resilient.
Alcohol stains run like water w/o differentiation and they subtract from the composite's contrast. I like the idea of a shellac or lacquer carrying the color. If it holds up it could be a winner.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
The poly will adhere to the shellac if it is DE-waxed shellac. I think you can get pre-mixed dewaxed shellac in different grades from http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com - if not, it's pretty easy to mix your own flakes.
Zinsser makes a "Seal Coat" dewaxed blonde shellac that is pretty widely available (2# cut). Check their web site for a local source. You can mix alcohol based dyes with the shellac for the color of your choice.
Some dyes, like the ones from Sherwin Williams, http://www.homesteadfinishing.com, or Wood Finishing Supplies can be mixed with alcohol or water. They can also be mixed with shellac, water-base finishes, or oil-base finishes (if you pre-mix the dye with acetone before adding it to the finish; and don't thin the oil-base with mineral spirits).
Paul
F'burg, VA
Think I've seen the zinsser brand around. Mostly as stain blocker paint but if one of a brand is in the store the other is probably as well.
I'll keep the mark to your comments as I've gotta go out and soak up the warmth. 72. Boy I'd like it if every day was 72 degrees.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Have you tried a 1 - 2# cut of blonde shellac on the raw wood, then stain to the color you want? This is toning, though since you've tried extensively with others, it might be worth a try? Consulting Michael Dresdner or Jeff Jewitt by e-mail or phone call is another possibility. Good luck! Thanks for the info. re the composite.
As reported to Sawick, I'm a shellac virgin. Other than removing the stuff on table and sideboard tops I haven't used it. I guess it is time to learn.
Can you translate "1 - 2# cut of blonde shellac "? I'm at a loss if it doesn't come out of a can. Is that a ratio of alcohol to shellac? Please help.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Thanks for your reply. You are right, it is a thinned shellac that is clear. The simplest way is to go to a paint store and obtain the 2# (two pound) blonde shellac for a trial. You can get a better quality from the sources mentioned, and from Woodcraft, Rockler, Lee Valley, Highland Hardware, Garrett Wade, etc. via the Net, phone or catalogs. There are "toning" articles in FWW and other wood magazines within the last year. It takes longer using this process, though I've found the results personally have been more rewarding when blending composites and wood for example.
I'll make a run at it although the alcohol based dyes I picked up at Rockler soaked in like a felt pen in a white shirt. Possiblky a coat of the clear shelac first? then again maybe the dye won't run as deep.
I won't be trying it today, it is 72 degrees in Wisconsin. Damn few days like that in the middle of March. It is quite the relief from sub-zero stuff.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
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