I’m replacing old vertical shiplap with 6″ lap(bevel) siding. Can anyone tell me what miter and bevel angles I need on the outside corners? I’m assuming the bevel will be 45 degrees and the miter will be what? somewhere around 2 degrees? I don’t want to use outside corner boards, if possible.
Replies
It would be easier to experiment with a couple of short lengths of siding, adjusting the saw's setting until you get a tight joint.
Mitered corners are rarely used for clapboard siding for a number of reasons, primarily because they are very time consuming to make and the joints will open up and look terrible if there is any shrinkage or warpage of the boards or settling of the building.
John W.
Thanks, John.
A later addition to the house employs bevel siding and mitered corners, but your post seems to suggest I'd be better off with butting corner boards. I had to replace some corner boards recently on that part of the house and found it difficult to get the joints lined up flush. Sounds like you just have to fuss with it. Thanks for the post.
I agree with the John. You want as little exposed endgrain as possible. Those corners, even if perfectly mitered, will rot first.
Sounds like you are only replacing a couple of bad ones though. Not worth adding corner trim. Use glue on all the miters. brush it on or smear it on with a finger; wait a couple of minutes for it to soak in, then put more glue on. try to clamp it if possible, or staple the miter shut.
Break time is an excellent place for these questions too.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Mike,
Actually, my long range plans were to eventually replace all the vertical shiplap on the rest of the house with bevel siding, so what to do with the outside corners is a consideration. Butting corner boards sound like the better way to go.
I'm new to the forums. Thanks for telling me about the breaktime forum. Is that a better place to address questions such as mine?
Thanks for the glueing tips!
Bill
I had to replace some corner boards recently on that part of the house and found it difficult to get the joints lined up flush.
I find it easier to assemble the corner boards on the sawhorses, then nail them on.
For my siding job, i'll first wrap the corner in 30# felt or some extra water shield i have left over from a roofing job. Then i'll use some 5/8" all-weather plywood strips, 4" wide, for the "under" corner boards. The siding is Hardieplank, which, lapped, is that same thickness. The Hardieplank will butt to the "under corner-board". On top of that, i'll use a plastic decking trim material which is 3/4" x 5 1/2" wide for the "over" corner-board. Similar treatment around windows, except for using 5/8" cedar for the under-boards because the edge will show as a reveal around the window, which will be painted. The cedar i'm using is just 6' fence boards from HD i've selected for a clear edge, about a buck per.
I hate the way caulking looks as it ages and pulls away from the siding and corners, not to mention rot issues in the sheathing when rain seeps through. I think my corner will last longer and look better because it forms a much better rain shedding drainage system. I've already used these plastic decking corners on the lower storey of the house over Hardipanel (sheet siding), mitering them and gluing with polyurethane glue, held with 15 ga. finishing nails until cured 24 hours. You wouldn't have to miter them, but i did because they were textured on the face differently from the sides. They went up perfectly straight and square with no fuss-factor.
Otherwise known as the Over-board Method, possibly invented by me. ;^)
I rarely do any exterior work, so I am only vaguely aware of the various composite products that have come to the market in recent years.
But yesterday, I was on the same job site I mentioned earlier, and the carpenters were installing all the trim (prior to shingling). They were using a product called "MiraTec" -- which looks like a preprimed MDF material, smooth on one side w/ fake wood grain on the other.
The carpenter was a young kid, who didn't know much, but I got the impression this stuff has been around for a while.
In MN, redwood and QS Doug fir (tight grain) is pretty much unavailable, so if you want real wood, clear cedar is the only choice -- and it is woefully expensive.
MiraTec might be the answer for the corner boards under discussion here, or any other exterior trim project. It is available in 3/4" and 5/4 thickness, 16' lengths, and widths starting at 2" and moving through increments up to 16". Here is their web site:
http://snipurl.com/MiraTec
Edited 8/21/2004 10:37 am ET by nikkiwood
Sounds interesting, but they are pretty vague about what it's made of, and i haven't heard of it around here. A lot of these kinds of materials are rather regional; for instance, Advantech, a superb sheet material used like plywood or OSB for decking, but which doesn't swell when exposed to water, gets me a blank stare when i've asked for it locally.
I note your material is paintable, which some of the vinyl products aren't. It also allows flush-driven nails, a big no-no with the FC (fiber-cement) type of materials. Weight was another of my considerations--the FC trim is REALLY heavy.
Re: MiraTec
This stuff is certainly lighter than the fiber cement materials; I picked up a piece, and it was about the weight of regular MDF -- not really light, but manageable.
Paint? For sure. But I don't know about countersinking nails. Just as regular MDF does, I would imagine a nail will raise the fibers of the material around the nail hole -- rather than crushing the fibers, as is the case with real wood. So you probably have to sand around the countersink before you fill it. But I doubt if pro carpenters take the time.
But my main point is that there seems to be a stream of new composite materials flowing into the market, which I think is great given the price/availablility issues with natural woods that are appropriate for exterior uses.
After another few years, the only exterior natural wood you will see will be on houses built by the wealthy interests Jon Arno so ably argues for.
I hang hardy siding all the time and use galvinised siding nails (in a gun). There is no problem with nails.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I didn't mean to say you can't shoot nails in Hardie, only that you compromise the integrity of the surface mightily by crunching it to set the nails flush. The back of the nail is supposed to just *kiss* the surface of the Hardie in a proper installation, leaving the nails are way too visible, to my mind. Picky, picky...i know. <G>
Hardi siding can be blind nailed.
I see what you mean now. However on most lap siding the nails are not visible any way. As they are coverd by the next course.
Mike
please excuse my spelling.
I was talking about the nails in the cornerboards not showing.
I'm bling screwing my Hardie. I don't want to cough up another $300+ for another gun (since i already have a roofing stapler for shingles), and i'm not in a big hurry.
There's a similar thread going on in Breaktime about fasteners for Hardie, complicated by it being hung on a Habitat for Humanity house. The question in the balance is whether the speed of nailing outweighs the risk of injury to volunteers and the probability of their blowing out chunks of siding bec of inexperience using air tools.
Hi redpine,
There are many options on doing outside corners. It depends on how you want the job to appear and the time you are willing to invest in doing it. All siding whether flat or beveled can be mitered or butted against a corner board. There are also ready made metal corners that are available, they go on quickly, give a neat appearance and are weatherproof. There's no need to miter with metal corners. For practical reasons, it's best to do the job with a minimum of joint lines, just remember that weather tightness is as important as appearance. Doing mitered corners is going to be alot more work than using corner boards or the metal corners. With corner boards and metal corners you simple cut the siding square at the end and run it up against the board, or, place the metal corners over the ends of the claps. With mitering you can use a 2 degree or 4 degree miter, depending on the appearance. It takes alot more work to cut the clapboards so that the compound miters are all in alignment with each course above and below. The compund miters as posted in the other posts have a nasty habit of opening up over time, even if you back caulk with siliconized latex. I would just use cornerboards or metal corners if you want the mitered look. However the paint might not hold up well with metal corners, so that is another consideration. Hope all this helps, and, the siding job turns out well!
Those daring young men in their flying machines!
Thanks for your post, f4. The 2 and 4 degree reference was what I was looking for, but it sounds like a lot of work to get all the lap corners lined up? And when you're using CVG, it could possibly get pricey making those small corrections. The problem of their opening up over time is a good point. The metal corners, I concur, are not an alternative. I knowe there are purists out there who feel that corner boards can really detract from the overall appearance, but corner boards sound like a better alternative in the long run.
Any advice on their width? I have a single story home with 6" bevel siding on the lower third of the house and vertical shiplap above(which will be removed eventually and replaced).
Redpine,
In a recent episode of "ask this old house" they showed how to do what you want. First of all, the corners alternate so you don't have a straight line going down the edge of the house .....second, the wood extens beyond the end and is planed back with a block plane to fit....a small nail is placed to keep the boards tight.
You might be able to get a bit more info from their web site....
Edited 8/19/2004 7:36 pm ET by BG
BG,
Thanks for the link to This Old House; I'll definitely check it out. As for "alternating corners" I think you must be thinking about shakes, no? Weaving the inside and outside corners works with shakes, but not lap siding. I think the corners on shakes would be a lot easier.
Redpine,
Opps. your correct..I was thinking shakes not clapboard...and shakes is what Tom Silva demonstrated...sorry
I have never put on a piece of siding of any kind in my life.
But this morning, I was walking up to a job site, and happened to see the house next door had mitered clapboards. I remembered the query you posted, so I walked over to have a closer look.
Nearly all the mitered corners had separated, particularly on the lower courses. And the 2-3 bottom courses were beginning to show obvious signs of rot. The corners had clearly been caulked, I assume for the last paint job (which I would guess was 8-10 years ago).
Most of the houses in this neighborhood were built in the 20's-30's -- and it was hard to say for sure, but I imagine the clapboards were original to the house.
Also, the mitered corners look like a whooooooole lot of work to cut and fit.
Which ever way you go, I would urge you to back prime everything -- and then brush on a coat of fast drying primer on all the cut edges before you put them up.
Good luck.
Nikkiwood,
Yes, you're right about these mitered corners on older houses. Not sure if there's a way to keep them from separating eventually. I'm starting to rethink my corners as a result of these posts; I think the butted corner boards have a better chance of holding up over the long haul.
Just this morning I played around with the angles I need on the corners of my house. Seems I need a 2 degree bevel angle with a 45 degree miter. Getting them to butt edge to edge is a bit of a challenge. Seems each course would require some fussing. Would I go crazy first?
Thanks for your post.
Would you go crazy? That depends on how much patience you have, and I suppose, the size of the house.
Also, once you get the compound angle right, I would think you'd be good to go for the whole house. Maybe one should think about some sort of simple jigs (for the right and left sides of the mitre), so you could set up your cuts more quickly.
I don't know that I would give up on the idea too quickly though. The mitres (on the house I spoke about) still looked good from the sidewalk (maybe 20'), and they had stood through the rigors of maybe 70 winters (which in MN, is saying something).
Besides, it gives you a chance to apply whatever great woodworking skills you have to the exterior appearance of your house.
Hi redpipe,
Well, I have not done sidng, I've done custom cabinets and small interior trim jobs. I have seen clapboard siding being installed at jobsites. It does take a lot of work to do mitered corners that are nice and straight. Carpenters who do it for a living make it seem effortless! I've seen claps being installed with corner boards and it does go up alot faster. Just back caulk by placing a bead of siliconized latex along the joint where cornerboard and sheathing meet, then cut a piece of siding to length and place it in the caulk. Thats it! I have seen on jobsites and This Old House, the vertical joint between the cornerboard and the siding gets caulked after all the siding was installed with the same siliconized latex caulk. As for cornerboard width, I've never paid attention, but now that you've asked, I would venture to say probably between 4 to 6 inches on the width, depending on the look that's desired. As for the purists, like everyone they are entitled to thier opinions. Some architectural styles do use cornerboards, while others don't. In the end it just a matter of what suits your tastes. I agree with you that corner boards are better alternative in the long run.
Those daring young men in their flying machines!
I would really recommend butting the siding into to trim boards.
If not, then save yourself a bunch of time and run two miter saws. You'll go crazy having to flip one saw over constantly.
_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
some questions first 1 does your saw bevel both ways? 2 is your siding rabbeted on the bottom? ifit has a rabbet it sits flat on the wall and don't forgetthat you should be strapping the wall to provide an air space. if it sits flat you would just use a standard 45 deg. mitre . if it is un beveled siding [areal clapboard] I think you could achieve the desired bevel by placing a piece of scrap on the table of your mitre saw with the bottom towards the ffront. this should make the bevel angle for you, now it is just a45 deg. mitre. sorry , you put the piece you are cutting on top of the piece of scrap. hope this works TTFN
Even if your saw bevels both ways, it is still better, time wise, to set up two miter saws. (This assumes you make a living installing siding.)
If the siding sits flat against the wall then only a simple 45d is required. But I thought we were talking "lap" siding._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Mr Redpine,
I just redid my house in pre primed finger jointed siding with mitered corners. I live in seattle and my neighborhood has alot of 70 to 100 year old houses with mitered corners and they appear to be holding up very nicely, in most cases.
I chose to miter the corners for the looks as the use of corner boards looks a bit too much like vinyl siding for me. I also chose finger jointed cedar because 1) i plan to paint 2) it should be more dimensionally stable 3) the quality or 2nd or 3rd growth is not like 90 years ago 4) it was quite a bit cheaper.
As far as mitering the corners yes it is quite a bit more work but in my my opinion it looks better. The first course should have a starter peice which will increase the angle of the first few courses. I found that 5 to 8 degrees worked and then decreased to a constant of about 4 to 5 degrees after i think about the 3rd course. As someone else suggsted, I used test pieces of about 2 feet in length and then tried different angles. Keep in mind that as you nail them down it changes the angle a little bit. Once I had the right angle I marked those 2 peices so I would know which end to place against the backstop since the saw only tilts one way. As I put up each course I painted the end grain liberally with an oil based primer and the laid a thin bead of a latex urethane (50 year) caulk. Once nailed down (I used stainless siding nails) I cleaned up the caulk that smooshed out. Later went back and reprimed and painted. Assuming the back side of your siding is not getting wet or maintinance is neglected, I think you should be ok. write with questions anytime. David
Dave,
Thanks a lot for your post! Very interesting info. I'm living just North of you in Lake Forest Park, so our weather is ostensibly identical. The mitered corners on the South side of the house(I have lap siding on the lower 1/4 of the house) are coming apart, but it sounds like if I do it right, I might have some success.
I'm not a carpenter by trade; I'm a paint contractor/visual artist, so, you'll have to bear with me when I ask what "finger jointed" siding is? Never heard of it before. Anything that can save me money will get a good look from me. After spending over two grand on four double-paned wood framed windows(three picture windows and one entryway window), and installing them myself, I spent another $500 on interior CVG Doug Fir and exterior cedar trim. I've only managed to oil prime the outside, so there's more time and money waiting.
I've got an old 1929 house with mostly vertical shiplap. It's very substantial(3/4"), but butt ugly. I thought I would have to just spend the money on 6" CVG bevel siding. Where do you buy your wood from, by the way?
You provide very good info. Didn't know that the angles will change from the bottom up, for example. And not sure I've encounter urethane caulk before. As a painter, I use Alex 35 yr silicone caulk mostly.
Also, I had a discussion with a guy at Dunn Lumber the other day about siding nails. He thought I was crazty to spend $11/lb on stainless steel nails when galavanized will hold up just as well. He also said even stainless steel can rust, another revelation to me. At any rate, what length and size do you use?
If you can reply further it would be much appreciated.
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