Replies

1. 
   mvflaim | Dec 05, 2007 05:04am | #1

   Norm? Is that you?

    

   I use power tools all the time. I just like the fine tuneness you get with hand tools. I sort of look at as; I do all the rough work with power tools and then clean it up with hand tools. There's somewhat of a misconception that power tools will do a task quicker but I have found out through the years that I can perform the same task just as fast or even faster with hand tools simply because I don't have the set up time to adjust the power tool.

    

2. 
   9619 | Dec 05, 2007 06:03am | #2

   PMM,
   In the words of the great John Wayne:
   A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

   You won't get an argument from me on your approach.
   Have fun.
   This is the real thing, not practice for something else.
   Mel

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

3. 
   Ronaway | Dec 05, 2007 06:16am | #3

   Like most I use a combination of hand and power tools. However you must measure productivity thru the complete process and not just in individual objectives. What I mean is one can sand a surface thru several grits of abrasive or one can flatten and smooth the surface with a hand plane and then sand with one grit. I'd much rather end the chore by a short session of sweeping plane shavings into a dust collection pipe than trying to clean every surface that sanding dust landed on after a vigorous sanding session.

   The nature of one's work could also have a great bearing on how much you benefit from the use of hand tools versus power tools. The type work you described could in fact be hindered and slowed by the use of hand tools, whereas in my work I am more productive thru the use of hand tools and I will have to say that a cleaner work place actually helps my productivity.

   Each of us establish work processes in which we are comfortable and that we believe makes us the most productive, the fact that mine include the generous use of hand tools versus power tools doesn't mean there is any right or wrong it just means we are different people.

   Ron Brese

   If you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
4. 
   alanplanesaw | Dec 05, 2007 06:22am | #4

   PMM,

   Good presentation of your thoughts.  I would agree that there is no one "right" way, power or hand.

   At a woodworking show a couple years ago I watched Frank Klausz in a discussion with someone watching him hand cut dovetails.  The observer had asked what was the largest project he (and/or) his dad had making drawers and dovetails.  I believe he said it was a leather shop with lots of drawers (seems like in the hundreds of drawers).

   Anyway, Klausz made the point that his dad would have used power tools when making multiple drawers if such had been available.  If I recall correctly, he said he would use a power tool of whatever sort if he had to make a large number of drawers, but that he can cut and chop dovetails for a few drawers faster than most people can get the power tool equipment set up.

   And, for him, that makes perfect sense.  For me, I may decide to hand cut dovetails simply because I want the experience.  A year or so ago I had a project that required eight large drawers.  I set up the Leigh jig for that. 

   It is just a joy making sawdust -- and knowing how to do it by hand or with power!

   Alan - planesaw

    

    

5. 
   Samson | Dec 05, 2007 06:59am | #5

   The debate is misguided.  Do whatever turns you on.  Use whatever works for you. 

   If it's a hobby, the main question is whether yout enjoy your shop time. 

   If you have aspirations of making objects of lasting beauty, comfort, utility, etc., then the main question is whether the piece succeeds on these levels.  Use nothing but a single edge razor blade or use nothing but a fulll blown CNC where you never touch the wood, it doesn't matter as the result is all that counts.  My experience, however, is that the more hand tools I use on a project, often the better it is as far as being unique and beautiful.  I'm not interested in making anything that looks as though it could have come from a store.  For me, power tools yeild more of a factory made look.   

6. 
   andyfew322 | Dec 05, 2007 07:10am | #6

   I love to use power tools, but still You don't see me coming on here and claming power tools are better than hand tools, or that the U.S.A is beter than China.

1. 
   sapwood | Dec 05, 2007 07:14am | #7

   They're all hand tools, some just have motors.

1. 
   Lataxe | Dec 05, 2007 11:02pm | #12

   Sap,

   Yes indeed - even a router with the most fantabulous cutter (one capable of making a windsor chair from a rough plank with only 7 passes, due out from CMT in 2013) requires a skilled operator to manage and guide the cuts.

   As to machines creating a factory-made look - well it depends on how they are used.............. 

   I saw one of them Grand Design programmes (about building a hoose) on tele, where a carpenter-bloke in Cambridgeshire not only built a wooden hoosey for hisself but filled it with handmade furniture.  The stuff looked as individual and artistic as any green woodworker's products.  But he made the lot with a router, including all the rather ornate carving!  He made it fast.

   Samson is correct about the finished product being the arbiter of the tools and their use.  Use the tool that makes the right surface or other physical attribute of thepiece.  However I believe he is wrong to assume that only old-fashioned hand tools sans-motor can achieve an individual, artistic or handmade look.  As you say, the same hands turn the motor on and make the cutters cut aright; so the art is still in the hooman and may well come out, even via the motorised thang.

   Lataxe, eschewing dogma.

1. 
   Samson | Dec 05, 2007 11:08pm | #13

   Compare and contrast:

   "My experience, however, is that the more hand tools I use on a project, often the better it is as far as being unique and beautiful.  I'm not interested in making anything that looks as though it could have come from a store.  For me, power tools yield more of a factory made look."   

    

   "However I believe he is wrong to assume that only old-fashioned hand tools sans-motor can achieve an individual, artistic or handmade look."

   Samson

   the mischaracterized and slightly put out

1. 
   Lataxe | Dec 05, 2007 11:22pm | #14

   Samson,

   Apologies for misreading you as making a general point rather than a personal one.  Also, I confess that I could not do with a router what the Cambridgeshire carpenter did - he had got hisself some years of skill there.

   I suppose your point might be that traditional hand tools will (their user being sufficiently tutored in their use) provide a handmade look, almost automatically.  That is certainly true.  But those innovators out there make some pretty fine stuff even when there is a router or a sander involved.  As to those men who carve with chainsaws and Arbotechs....!

   At the moment I am thanking the electicity-producing chaps, as I have spent many hours planer/thicknessing a lot of rough, thick, waney-edged beech planks then resawing them with the huge bandsaw, just to get down to the starting planks for the intended project.  I feel awe at blokes who would have done this with handsaws and planes (but then I think, "Daft buggers").  :-)

   Of course, the final articles will be finished with oneo' them queer old plane-thingys you told me to get.  It does leave a fine look.  :-)

   Lataxe the WW schizo

2. 
   Samson | Dec 05, 2007 11:36pm | #15

   D,

   I'm not really annoyed, just feeling misunderstood, I expect.

   As you noted, I was trying hard to emphasize the end and not the means.  Others, like your Chesterfordshireham carpenter, can get there in ways I could not.  I would never dream of generalizing for others as to the necessary means.  Personally, hand tools take me "there" (or at least closer to the vicinity) more automatically.  Indeed, I would have to try crazy stuff to make some of my machine work look the same as hand - beltsanding to produce plane-like dips perhaps; and I'm not sure how I would make jig and router cut dovetails look handcut, etc.

   S

7. 
   mike_b | Dec 05, 2007 01:21pm | #8

   <<More power to you.>>

   Very slick.

   Mike

8. 
   JMartinsky | Dec 05, 2007 03:11pm | #9

   Dear PMM,
   I am with you, but I am driven by the dollar. I work commercially, and as the saying goes, "time is money". I am looking for a machine that one can toss rock embedded tree stumps in one end and have it spit out Windsor chairs from the other. Perhaps Grizzly will copy a European design and I can have it shipped to me for $3500.00.

   Best,

   John

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/5/2007 7:23 am ET by Jmartinsky

9. 
   MikeHennessy | Dec 05, 2007 03:19pm | #10

   I make lots of projects with power tools. Most turn out OK. ;-)

   I make a few projects solely with hand tools. Most turn out OK. ;-)

   For me, the choice is made when the project starts. If I am in a production frame of mind, I plug in. If I am in a more Zen mood, I forgo 'lectricity and do the Neander thing.

   The finished products (usually) cannot be distinguished by the casual observer. Only I know what processes were used to make the piece.

   I have found that I retain a deeper attachment to those pieces I make by hand, and I enjoy them for years, almost as works of art. Somehow more than functional objects.

   An equally nice piece done with power tools soon becomes, to me, just another piece of furniture, even if it is a beautiful piece of furniture -- well, an "OK" piece of furniture. ;-)

   I am sure a visitor to my home would not be able to make this distinction. I do hand work more for my own "spiritual" benefit, and power work more for practical use. The only one the manufacturing process matters to, in the end, is my own self.

   It's kind of like knocking on your friend's door in Maine and announcing you just arrived from Georgia. Only you know if you made the trip by plane, car, or hiked the Appalacian Trail. And to your friend, who is just glad you dropped by, it matters not a whit. He's just glad to see you.

   YMMV. (And probably does.)

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

1. 
   yellowtail | Dec 05, 2007 05:53pm | #11

   I use both. If a task is enjoyable to me, then I'm doing it right. If it begins to feel like work, I find a better way. And, yes, setting up a power tool for one or two operations can be tedious.

10. 
    THintz | Dec 05, 2007 11:49pm | #16

    I have no problem with people who enjoy using power or hand tools. Both are welcome in the hobby and both do great work. I also am a power tool sort of guy and have managed to make good and bad stuff with them.

    The folks I do have a problem with are the ones who say using the kind of tools they do is the only right way. They don't always say so in so many words but the gist of their meaning is obvious. Like when somebody asks about setting up a dovetail jig and somebody tells them to cut them by hand.

    Tom Hintz

    Because there is always more to learn!

11. 
    Gnome | Dec 06, 2007 05:04pm | #17

    I use and like both. There are times when each have their advantages. I am not a purist in either line of thought. I use what seems to work best at the time.