I am in the market for a new table saw and I would love to hear feedback from folks who own the saws I am considering. I currently own a Craftsman 10″ that sorely needs to be put out to pasture. I have been reading reviews (for what that they are worth) in the mags and online. I have looked at the saws as well-at least what is available. I hope that the upcoming Woodworks show in Springfield next month will have some displays so I can score some more information. I have a budget of about $1000. I have looked at Jet, Delta, General, and Powermatic. I peeked at the DeWalt hybrid but I don’t think that is what I am looking for unless some people have experience with this saw and can offer some positive feedback. I have not looked at the Grizzly 1023 (cabinet) but I have read some good things about it. Unfortunately, since you only get them via mail order I hope someone who owns one can offer some feedback. The price entices me and I believe one of the mags stated “…flat out loved this saw…”
The General contractor saw, 50-185, and Powermatic 64A as of now are the front runners. I liked the handles and fence on both although with the General you had to be careful not to hit the top while cranking. The Powermatic was very ease to crank. The specs on each are comparable but the price of the Powermatic is about $200 more. Is it worth it? You may ask why not Jet since Jet owns Powermatic. Maybe it was the salesperson at Woodworker’s Warehouse but I was not impressed.
I appreciate any and all information you fellow woodworkers can supply.
Replies
I have the General and have loved every minute I have used it. I was going to buy a General 650 but never as I had to decide wether I was going to buy the saw or keep my wife and new born son. The wife and son won out but I still have my eye on a 650 and some day will park on in my shop but untill then I cannot say anything bad about my 185.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Clouts,
I don't remember many cabinet saws being at the show in Springfield last year...hopefully it'll be better this year. The fall show in wosta last year had a ton of stuff...but was poorly attended and they did not have it this year...
I bought the 1023s last fall (right tilt) along with a new blade, systi matic 8" dado, shop fox base...that just about shot the $1000....its hard to describe the difference it has made...just terrific.
Both the General International 50-185 and the PM64a are excellent contractor saws. The two saws are extremely similar and may even be made in the same factory. The differences a small - The blade guard on the PM is one of the better stock guards around, while the GI's is average. The cast iron miter gauge on the GI is one of the best stock gauges available, while the PM's is average. Both have excellent rip fences. The GI's is made in association with Biesemeyer, it's not just a copy, and it has a slight advantage in the clamp down pressure against the front rail due to it's design. The handwheel location is the same on both. The ease or difficulty of cranky the wheels varies depending on how tightly or loosely the locking threads are tightened...pretty much a non-issue. The price difference makes the GI a bonafide value. FWIW - Fine Woodworking magazine ranked the GI 50-185M1 #1 over the PM64a, DeWalt 746x, Delta, Jet, Grizzly, Bridgewood, and Woodtek in a 9 saw comparison in it's latest "Tools and Shops" issue.
With that said, if I were to spend $1K on a saw, I'd serously consider either the Griz 1023SL or a Shop Fox 1677. Cabinet saws have numerous advantages over contractor saws and very few disadvantages. They have about twice the HP, better belt drive systems for more efficient power transfer, more robust trunnions, better DC, less vibration, longer life expectency, stay aligned better, have bigger handwheels, hold resale value better and are just plain a pleasure to use. Besides being heavier to move into location, they require 220V operation...which is a good thing to have in your shop regardless.
Happy hunting and let us know what you end up with. (oh, and Merry Christmas!)
Last week I upgraded my saws from a Jet contractor saw to the Powermatic 66 cabinet saw. Please don't tell my wife, but the thing that impressed me most was the lack of significant difference.
Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with my 66, and I am not considering going back. The cabinet saw is more powerful and smoother. But it's not a lot.
I think it is because the Jet is a great contractor saw to begin with. Especially after I replaced the belt with one of those link belt thingies. The new Jet with the 2 cast iron wings and a bisemeier fence would probably have served me for the rest of my life.
I think you are wise to get a lot of opinions. But my advice would be to opt for a contractor saw with as good a fence as possible, rather than a low-end cabinet saw. IMHO.
Good Luck!
I'd buy the best friggin cabinet saw, like a Delta or PM used. Lotsa guys get divorced, move etc, and i see good $2,000 Deltas going for less than a grand every month or two. Take your time and get the best for cheap. Your Sears can last another 6 months while you look around.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Ha, if I get divorced about the one and only thing I'm demanding that I keep is my shop, Unisaw included :)
The only way I'm parting with my precious Unisaw is if someone prys it from my cold dead hands.
JD
BTW, he is right, look for used saws that's how I found mine. Someone had to declare bankruptcy and it ended up going to a landlord to pay off back debts, and he graciously sold it to me for 700 bucks.
Edited 12/22/2003 11:36:55 AM ET by JDorn
I own a 1970's-era PM 66 that I paid around $1200 for. It replaced a Jet Contractor's saw that I bought new in 1998. The difference is huge, in power, alignment and in potential re-sale value ('though I can never see that happening).
This is the only way I purchase machines at this point in my career: Used, solid American steel. These machines are always serviceable, bulletproof and hold their value.
Those smart marketing/design guys who work for delta/grizzly/general/jet, etc. know how much money the average woodworker has to spend and, therefore create a product to fit that amount. Don't fall for the hype/commercials.
Check http://www.woodquip.com to see if there are any used cabinet saws in your area.
Happy Christmas!
Chip,
As you see above, I bought a new PM66 to replace my Jet contractor saw of about the same age, but I haven't noticed a huge difference.
This is the first cabinet saw I've ever had a chance to use, so I wasn't entirely sure what to expect. Vibration is more that I expected (although less than the Jet).
Can you think of something I might have missed in the setup? Could quality control be an issue?
I would appreciate any ideas you might have.
Regards,
Dan
"New" might be part of the problem, but I cannot be sure. I'm told that the new PM66 is also made in Taiwan. Are they making them lighter to save on shipping costs? If so, sand bags might help dampen vibration. What kind of motors are they using now? Is is a 3hp or 5hp, and if so is that "peak" or sustained?
Mine has a 5hp motor and weighs well over 400 pounds. The first thing I did with it was to rip some 6/4 rough oak. The machine laughed at the plank. That was the big difference and one of the main reasons I made the change. I got four years of daily use out of the contractor's saw, but as I geared my shop up for using rough-sawn lumber of varying thickness, I knew that 1.5 peak hp wasn't going to get the job done for long.
Thanks, Chip
Mine has a big "Made in the USA" sticker on the front, which is a big part of why I chose it.
The graphics are a little different on the new saws - the stripe is on the base, now. This caused me to wonder the same thing. What else have they changed?
Mine is a 3hp Baldor motor. The Accufence panels are now solid plastic, same as the Jet saw. With the 30" fence, I only got one cast iron wing, so there is a weight difference.
All in all, after reading all the reviews about the PM66, my expectations had been very high. I guess they were just unrealistic.
Dan,
Have you contacted your dealer, or Powermatic about this? If the PM division is anything like the Jet division, you'll find them very eager to please and want you to be absolutely satisfied with your machine. (I broke a trunion support on my Jet cabinet saw moving it into the basement. Told the rep what happened, that it was entirely my fault. They sent a new one Fed-Ex at their cost. No charge for anything.)
I've never owned one, but the PMs I have seen and used stood above my Jet for their superb finish, heavy castings (the lack of a second wing should make no difference at all), and that Baldor motor. The ones I've used were vibration free, but so is my Jet.
As far as the "plastic panels" on the fence, I think you'll find them very durable, and much more "slippery" than the old composite materials.
Jeff
Thanks! Will Do.
Dan
Update:
I ended up getting the Grizzly 1023S with optional dust chute cover and motor cover. I also got the ShopFox mobile base. It all arrived unscathed and setting it up was straightforward. It did need tweaking in getting everything parralel and 90 degrees to one another. Using the Master gauge and Master plate made this a breeze. The belts did need some tightening and once I found out what took the cosmylene off rather easily (lacquer thinner) cleaning the cast iron was not that arduous. Using it is a dream--compared to my older contractor saw. I can't tell you what a difference it makes having a machine with a solid footing, vibration free surface and nice fence (biesmeyer type). I highly recommend it. I can't see spening $1400-2000 for a new Unisaw or Powermatic.
Congrats on the new saw....and thanks for the update. It's always nice to hear how the story turns out. Sounds like you made a good choice.
I agree with you. My Powermatic 66 with its 5hp motor, is unstopable. The one thing I've been wanting to get for it, is a sliding left table by Excalibur. I build cabinets all day long during the winter months, and for those heavy akward sheets of Melamine, it would be the only way. Right now, my PM 66 is setup like an island in a sea of flat surfaces. The only opening is right in front. Setup like this makes it very easy to handle sheets etc by yourself.
My reccomendation is the PM 66, but with a 5hp motor, not the 3. However if I had it to do all over again, I'd get their bigger model, that's capable of 12"-14" blades. At the time of purchase though, it was almost twice what I paid for the 66 @ right around 2k, so the 14" must have been close to $4000.
Robert K.
Rub,
I go over to Boulter Plywood in Sommerville, MA from time to time for high quality stuff and they'll cut up your plywood as much as you like. Like you, they have a 5hp Delta with a sea of tables and a gleaming sharp 80 tooth Forrest blade. I just love to watch them cut on that puppy. It's a toatally different animal from my 3hp Grizzly. They practically throw the sheets through the blade...doesn't phase it at all..hard to imagine what a bigger machine would do....
Update: My Craftsman wanted to go out to pasture a lot sooner than I was hoping. The motor died on me last night so I am not sure I can afford the wait time for a nice used one. Although, I did get a bite on something from one of the other web sites. Someone in my area has an older Yates-American. Does anyone have any experience with these bad boys?
clouts,
Don't know bout the yates...
here is a web site you might find interesting. They are up in NH.....between Manchester and Portsmouth...
http://www.brentwoodmachine.com/merchant/used_tool/tablesaws/tablesaws/tablesaws.htm
Thanks BG. I know exactly where Brentwood is. I have a place in Windham and I had to go to the County deed office a few times. Thanks for the lead.
Clouts,
What are you using the saw for? If you work with sheet goods, plywood and melamine, then you should have a sliding table saw. If you work primarily with hardwood and are building small projects, then a contractors saw will probably suffice. I don't rip thick(more than 1.5") pieces of solid wood on a table saw. I prefer a bandsaw. I think it is safer,less prone to kickback, and less wear and tear on the machine. However, if you dont have a bandsaw and plan on ripping thick timber, I wouldn't buy a tablesaw with less than a 5hp motor. The yates american is a good saw. I have used both yates american and oliver , pre 1950's vintage, tablesaws. I think each one had a 7 or 9 hp direct drive motor with 14 or 16" blade capacity. They were boyh very smooth and had plenty of power. However they are extremely heavy and I don't know if replacement parts are readily available. Currently I use the oliver and an old powermatic66(1960"s vintage). I primarily use the tablesaw for joinery so I would actually prefer a smaller saw, like a contractors saw, because I can get closer to the table and the work in order to fine tune adjustments and have more control. I think you should examine the type of work that you do to determine what type of tool you really need. Just my 2 cents.
J.P.
The Yates that I have come across is of a 60's vintage and is only 2 HP (is that right?). If so, I don't think that is what I am looking for. I don't do a lot of sheet good work-mostly rough lumber upwards of 8/4 and I don't have a bandsaw just yet. Decisions, decisions.
I love my pm 66 that i bought for a thousand. Even with the 3 hp motor, it cannot be stopped. however, i blew my budget on the saw and have just recently gotten the prettyxtras that make it even sexier. A good blade costs 80 dollars. A dado set costs at least a hundred dollars. The link belt upgrade costs the zero clearance insert costs..........buy the extras and bide your time waiting for the perfect saw. Used industrial machinery is the way to go. Take a dial indicator and a perfect straight edge with you and inspect the trunnion for flat spots, the arbor for true and anything else you can tink of
d
Good tips. Thank you.
Dustin,
I'm curious about your comment on link belts. I got an old Rockwell 3 HP Unisaw and planned on adding the link belts as one way to fix the vibration. Was told when I went to buy them that they are not recommended for the triple-belt Unisaws. Does the Powermatic have 3 belts or just one? If 3 belts, what kind of impact did going to link belts make for you?
Oh, by the way turned out the way to fix the vibration was to tear up the plywood floor and do it right (like make the stringers level and actually attach them to the floor, reduce spacing, screw down the plywood... freakin amateurs!).
Wayne
Sorry for the confusion but all I did was tighten the stock belts--no v belts. I don't see the need to replace them at this point although I have heard they do make a difference. I have not heard anything about the pros and cons of using v-belts on a triple belt system.
Wrudiger
I didn't really notice a difference with the link belts on the tablesaw, but my bandsaw was originally used to resaw dinosaur teeth sometime during the mesozoic period, and it helped considerably there. My PM has two belts, I think I heard the newer ones are back to three belts. Don't know anything about the belt numbers or recommendations for link belts.
Dustin,
That makes sense. I was told the link belts are really designed for single belt applications, perfect for your ancient bandsaw. Glad it worked for you!
Wayne
clouts
I will answer as you asked the question. With $1000 get the Griz cabinet saw or a used Delta, PM whatever. Just get a cabinet saw with that much to budget. You won't have to ponder the question of which cabinet saw to replace the contractor saw latter if you get it while you have that much budgeted.
Good Luck...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
Thanks. Since my saw died on me I have been leaning towards the Griz. The feedback I am getting has been all positive.
Clouts69,
Sarge's comments reminded me, after all was said and done my decision really came down to a used Uni, Power, Jet, General or a new Grizzly.... I also decided that if I was going to buy used it would be from someone who knew equipment ie. would support me if issues arose and was concerned about their business reputation....
I use my griz a lot for resawing hardwood for draws, etc....no problems.
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