My coping saws have always worked on a push cut (teeth forward). But, today at the big box store I noticed all theirs were set for pull cuts. Have I been wrong for years or are the Chinese not paying attention during assembly? Thanks
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Replies
Same for me. Mike W can you ring in on this one?
I have always favored pull cutting for coping saws. The blades, if you look closely, have zero to a negative rake, which favors a pull stroke.
Take care, Mike
Push stroke on the slender blades tend to make the blades bend under the pressure (Compression) conversely, pull stroking, tensions the blade
I've been using jeweler's saws for years and those old timers KNEW what was best. We use a kitchen saw to cut stale bread and I had to reverse the #%^#$ blade to have more control. Steinmetz
It's the user's preference. It is also easy enough to change the blade around to change direction. I prefer the blades to go in the direction of the pull, but on occasion for some profiles, I like to be able to push the saw to get the best cut. Since I have two coping saws (and a fret saw), I tend to keep them "loaded" with different teeth (say, 12 and 20) and in opposite directions. But if I need to switch, it only takes a minute.
My saws are antique Miller Falls saws, one from my grandfather and one from eBay. There are excellent coping saws and supplies available on eBay.
I prefer setting up my coping and jewlers saws to cut on the pull and after breaking a few hacksaw blades and getting royally cut I set them up the same way, pull is safer.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I have worn out a few coping saws and used up many blades. In other words, I have coped a lot of joints!
My preference is to buy a Stanley coping saw which comes with the blade set for a pull stroke. I take out the blade, throw it away, and bend the saw frame open so the blade is under much more tension. So much that I can hardly get the blades in.
Then I use a good quality hardened blade (the Stanley blades come pre-dulled so they don't hang up) installed to cut on the push stroke. Don't get me wrong, I use Japanese saws daily so I have nothing against cutting on the pull stroke or the theories behind it.
In my case I cope moldings. I cope them face up on a job site. If I cut on the pull stroke I would either have to be down on my knees cutting from below the boards or I would have a lot of tearout on the face. Cutting on the push solves both of these problems.
Just my opinion, based on a lot of experience.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
It's tough to argue against experience. I always pulled the coping saw, but then I never thought to bend more tension into the frame. While building my first bow saw I learned that they are commonly set up for a push stroke and that is how I normally use them, but you can crank lots of tension into them.
-Chuck
hal you cant be anymore correct
Thanks guys! I've just done so much of it that I thought I should give my 2 cents. I can't take all of the credit though. I had a good teacher. He told me he taught me all he knew.
Hal
Hal,
What is the brand / model number of blades you use?
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
Vermont American, or Olson from The Olson Saw Co.
The particular blade kind of depends what you are cutting though. If you are trying to cut some very hard wood inlays you will probably need super fine teeth, maybe even blades made for metal. If you are coping joints in softwood, sticky sharp teeth seem to work well. Back when I did a lot of this there was a wide variety of blades available to choose from. And the width of the blade will depend on how curvy you need. I have always used pretty small blades for coping saws, but there are even smaller ones available for fret saws.
Hal
The way I learned it (i.e., one way, not THE way) is to set up the saw to cut on the pull stroke and work with the wood flat on the bench so you are essentially a muscle-powered jig (scroll) saw -- handle points to the floor, cuts on the way down. This helps hold the work steady while you cut since the cutting action pulls the piece down on to the bench.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I too stretch my coping saw frame to increase tension because I prefer to cut on the push stroke. i've just gotten used to cutting a certain height and (most importantly) the majority of the sawdust goes out the bottom and doesn't get in the way of seeing the cut line while coping.
Pull cut, Truck
The blade isn't stiff enough to cope with a push-cut. When you look at it this way, it makes logical sense.
Cheers,
eddie
Ah yes, logical sense. Are you new to this? There is no logical sense here.
Hal
Hi Hal,No, I'm not new to this. I did see your reply above before I posted. I'm a tradesman with formal guild training, an indentureship and a fair few years experience.I too can use the things with the blade reversed without snapping the blade and also stretch the frame a bit to increase the tension. But this is not the way they're designed to be used and require the muscle memory developed from years of work. I 'heard' what you said and I'm glad it works for you. Personally, I cope a mitre on something like skirting using the blade cutting on the pullstroke with the cut line held vertically so the sawdust falls off the line. Not that I do much of this now but.The risk a newcomer has is that they will not be able to control a handsaw properly and will kink the blade in the kerf. As the blades are hardened, they snap when bent, while the hand is pushing straight at half a blade hanging out of the kerf. They tend to draw blood on a regular basis this way unless you have the basics of using a handsaw(I teach high school kids now, so I'm used to dealing with this problem - fortunately, as I'm getting better at explaining the issues, there are less and less injuries in the kids.)All thin blades are designed for use on the pullstroke. They just don't have the rigidity to withstand the buckling forces introduced by the pushstroke while cutting. However, they do stay nice and straight if they're being stretched under the tensile force induced by the pulling of the blade through the workpiece and there's not an excessive amount of force being used on the saw. An added safety advantage is that if the blade does break or slip out of the blade slot, then your hands are travelling away from the blade.A hacksaw blade and wider/thicker blades are usually designed to cut on the pushstroke. Japanese saws, being thin bladed, are also designed for the pull cut.Trust that this explains the logical sense you objected to. I'm writing a set of training notes this weekend and won't be back for a while.Cheers,eddie
Edited 12/2/2006 5:00 pm by eddiefromAustralia
No matter whether you push or pull, the thin blade is being pulled by the leading end of the frame. A standard flimsy coping saw works best on the pull stroke, since its frame can't provide the needed support to that end with the handle opposite. With a strong frame to provide the needed tension, pushing is fine. If you get that by bending the frame enough to make blade installation difficult, that could be a disadvantage. But a small turning bow saw that takes ordinary coping saw blades works beautifully. This design probably predates the standard coping saw too. The 4th and 5th photos in this link show what I'm referring to: http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/smalser/articles_290.shtml
I'm gonna echo eddies comments from down under. This issue has pooped up frequently over the years. and it always seems like the "pushers" chime in first. Maybe it's because the "pullers" are too busy laughing and choking on their beer!!! I was taught to use a coping saw by an English jointer, and it is designed to cut on the pull stroke. Not to say you cannot use it carefully on the push stroke, but you will encounter difficulties if you are too agressive. On occasion I have used it on the push, and it was them "pushers" who led me to try it (thank you) , cause it is was so exquisitely intuitive, supported by instruction, coupled with years of expierience without problems, to use it on the pull stroke that for me, there was just no other way.Pulling is way preferable still though. Course when yer using it on the pull stroke, yer pulling it on the unfinished/waste face sideMy coping saw of choice is the sandvik (orange handle)Eric
in Cowtown
The answer to this is quite simple-after 30 or more years of breaking blades on coping saws, fret saws, bow saws and the like one does a small clculation and comes up with two sets of figures: breakages incurred on the push and breakages incurred on the pull. Logically one goes for the smaller value.
Seriously I reckon it depends on a combination of personal preference, type of work and conditions, type/quality of tool and blade-and bloody mindedness.
That coping saw thing is definitely the last resort for me when all else will not do.
On further reflection-has any body tried using a jewellers fret saw on the push??
I want to point something about blade tension on coping saws relative to pulling and pushing. I think this issue is confused with blade tension on hand saws, where there really is a difference.
On coping saws, there is no difference.
Now that I have your attention, let me explain why. On a hand saw, the blade is fixed at the handle end only, and (to use a highly technical term), unrestrained, or "wiggly" at the business end of the saw. As you push, the blade is compressed between the cutting point and the handle, leading to distortion and lessened control over the cut. On a pull-stroke hand saw, the blade is stretched between the handle and the cutting point, improving the blade control.
But what about coping saws? They are fundamentally different, since the blade is attached to the yoke at both ends. Whichever direction you cut in, whether "push" or "pull", the blade is stretched on the cutting side and compressed on the other. Control over the coping blade is accomplished not by pulling or pushing, but by tensioning the blade in the yoke.
The efficiency of pull stroke versus push stroke on a coping or fret saw has to do with which way the little blades point (and the skill of the user).
If this isn't now an obvious "myth busted" to you, go out and look at your saws! On a push stroke, the blade is tensioned between the cutting point and the outboard end of the yoke.
And that's no yoke.
Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Mr. Fish,
That was good! Got some tension resolved in the discussion.
I suppose you get the last lath....
"On coping saws, there is no difference."
True enough, if the frame is rigid. This is not necessarily the case though on most coping saws where the frame is springy. For all practical purposes, though, the frame is stiff enough to provide enough strength to the blade to allow cutting on the push stroke - really amounts to pulling with the front end of the frame. Push too hard though, and you'll lose that strength since the spring of the frame will be exceeded. (DAMHIKT)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Even if the yoke is springy, there will still be tension on the cutting side of the blade whether or not you are pulling or pushing. An untensioned yoke could lead to less tension on a push stroke versus on the pull, but positive tension there will be. The blade will not compress as it would on a hand saw, it will still have tension.
So to me, there is no difference in whether you get tension on the push or pull, while there is a difference on a hand saw. That was the intent of my point that there is "no" difference on a coping saw. That is, no difference in tension versus compression on push or pull; not that there might be some difference in the amount of tension. A well tuned saw shouldn't have much difference.
BTW Mike, where's a good place to buy crown molding in the Irwin area?Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
If you push too hard you are doing it wrong.
I'm amazed that there is so much argument on this issue. And it seems that the big argument to having it cut on the pull stroke is the safety and tension issue.
If the saw is used correctly, there is not enough tension on the blade to have it break on the push or pull stroke. The breakage occurs when the blade is pinched in the kerf from improper alignment, or from the operator pushing the blade too hard or bending it. It is a tender little blade, but incredibly tough. Using a coping saw is like cutting dovetails with a hand saw; technique is everything. Properly done, the blade is finessed through the cut letting the teeth do the cutting.
However (and this is a big however) if the coping saw is used with a fretboard, of course the saw needs to cut on the pull stroke. But then isn't it just a big fretsaw? That's a different story.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
"If you push too hard you are doing it wrong."
No kidding! (G) Cutting curves in thick stock, in a hurry, you know the drill.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
If we add up all the 2 cents, we might make a buck. I think the main difference is the amount of control you have in the pull stroke vs the push stroke. I think a pull stroke allows a finer control as you can't get your weight behind it as you can with a push stroke, and so tend to make a more controled cut. A lot of this would be experince, first timers would be more jerky, and tend to bunch upon a push stroke, more than one with practice. Since I discovered Japan saws, I have turned all my hack saw blades around, and do as much as I can with pull strokes on my coping saws as well. I have a fine western hand saw with japanese style teeth that cuts on the push, and does it ever cut!
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