Replies

1. 
   DennisS | Nov 25, 2002 06:09am | #1

   Rich -

   What type of business is it? Does the counter have to be food safe? Is it a merhcandising situation that requires a good wearing surface? What is it about the design that has you concerned?

   A few more particulars might illicit more responsive replies.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   Richrhodes | Nov 26, 2002 03:52am | #2

   Thanks for the pointers.  It is not for food prep.  It is similar to the counters you see at the bank for customer service.  I am concerned about the amount of time involved and whether the counters can be assembled in sections and then connected as one unit with a solid surface top. 

   Thanks for any light you can shed on the situation.

1. 
   DennisS | Nov 26, 2002 06:37am | #3

   If it's a straight run of counter, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be built in sections, then bolted together and the top applied not unlike a kitchen counter/counter top.

   Depending on the type of material being processed on the top, you may want to consider how much wear & tear it will have to endure. Customer service alludes to writing (filling in and/or signing forms) which may have an impact on the kind of surfacing material you need to choose.

   I don't have any cost figures to back it up, but my guess would be that plastic laminate would be the least expensive and fastest if you have any experience with it. The drawback is if this is an existing closed space, an on site installation of plam using volatile contact cement is ... shall we say, breathtaking. And an extreme fire hazard if proper precautions aren't observed. On the other hand, I did one job recently using water based contact adhesive with good results.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   Richrhodes | Nov 27, 2002 06:48am | #6

   Dennis,

   Thank you for your responses.  My wife, bless her soul, has tried to respond to you as best possible based on telephone conversations with me from work. 

   The contertops are to be solid surface which are no problem.  The actual question involves the construction of a free standing wall approximately four feet tall.  This wall will have a twenty inch wide writing surface (solid surface) attached to the top and will be approximately thirty feet long.  Although the installation of a few custom built clerk desks (for support and anchor) is an option, the use of a free standing wall is preferred.  The wall is to have a minimum six inch fire chase through the center for wiring. 

   I am looking for design/construction ideas for the counter which will stand up to the daily abuse of people.  Other than the obvious use of fire retardent shell, fire chase, metal studs ect, I can adapt ideas to meet Ohio standards.  I am not looking to reinvent a wheel you may have already designed.  I will gladly send you a gallon of Ohios finest polluted water for one good idea.

   Thanks again,

   Rich   

1. 
   DennisS | Nov 28, 2002 08:06pm | #9

   Rich -

   I think metal framing would be my choice in this situation. I'd go heavy - 16ga. This ga material can be mig or wire feed welded but be aware that most metal studs are galvanized and this give off noxious fumes during welding. Use with copious amounts of ventilation and breathing protection if that's the route you chose. Mechanical fasteners - self drilling/tapping screws are available as well and might be easier if you're not familiar with welding light gauge material.

   If the chase is 6" min. and you use 4" studs on each side that makes the overall thickness of the wall 16". The 'writing surface' is only 20" meaning there's only 2" cantilever on each side, assuming the counter is centered on the wall. I'd use something like 2" studs across the top of the wall to support the countertop. Assuming a 3/4" finished sheet goods for the countertop (not counting the laminate or other finish material, that gives a 2 3/4" thickness for the countertop - wood blocking can be fastened to the edges for in turn applying the finished edging/trim. I'd also install a diagonal of 2" studs inside the wall cavity to truss and brace the wall although the countertop itself will perform as a horizontal beam to resist lateral forces such as someone leaning on it.

   I think, just based on the numbers and dimensions you've given, this should result in a pretty sturdy counter. Is there an architect or engineer associated with this project? If so, you might want to sketch up your solution and have him/her review the design and buy off on it. Chances are you'll get "it's not my problem" but it wouldn't hurt to try.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

2. 
   crt2cu2 | Nov 26, 2002 09:52am | #4

   RICH,

   Your post sounded a bit vague but the words "beyond local code considerations" jumped out.  I am thinking that your other questions about installing these countertops is moot.  If they won't pass code then don't do them.  Otherwise the building inspector can shut down the job and chances are you won't get paid because in effect you were a knowing (if you did in fact install this countertop as designed) accomplice/fabricator in fraud.  It might be better to tell the customer to reconsider the design, or turn down the job, and sleep well knowing you did not stretch the limits of the building safety laws.  Also, consider your long term reputation as a contractor.  If word gets out that you had a hand in this mess, future clients may balk at hiring you.  On the other hand, if word gets out that you held your ground (by declining) and maintained a level of professional and craftsman like integrity, then maybe future clients may be more inclined to hire you out of respect.

   As to information, your local codes office would be a good resource for your needs.  Just call them and ask for info.

   Not knowing much about your dilemma other than discernment from your post, that is my 2 cents.

   sawick

1. 
   Richrhodes | Nov 27, 2002 06:16am | #5

   I believe you may have misinterpreted my comment concerning local code.  I fully plan to follow all code citations and am very knowledgeable concerning the fabrication and installation of most countertops.  I would agree that to walk away would be better than to destroy a customers trust.  I believe that nearly all the subscribers to Taunton publications are honest, hard working people who do every job to the best of their ability.  Each subscriber undoubtably strives to keep up with new technologies to better serve their clients and seeks input from likeminded individuals.  Why else would I take the time to read these publications and ask fellow "professionals" for their input? 

   A wise man asks questions to fully understand a situation before he attempts to climb his soapbox.  Thank you for responding.

1. 
   crt2cu2 | Nov 27, 2002 07:24am | #7

   Rich,

   "a wise man asks questions..."

   Sorry Rich, I did not mean to "climb up on a soap box".  I trust you have the project dilemmas well in hand.  It is just that from your post it was hard for me to understand your plight and your request for guidance.  I read your post to mean a general request for open-ended feedback.  Again I apologize if I missed your intent and forgive me for proselytizing.

   eating my words,

   sawick

3. 
   BobLang | Nov 27, 2002 12:57pm | #8

   Rich,

   Take a look at the Architectural Woodwork Institute's site: http://www.awinet.org. The section on "Quality Standards" might be of help. Without seeing any drawings it is hard to give advice, but being the typical woodworker, I'll go ahead anyway.

   The big issues to me seem to be these:

   1. Can this wall be adequately anchored to the floor? If it is to support 30 some feet of solid surface tops, it should be pretty rigid. It sounds like the tops will be cantilevered off one side. Not impossible, but gravity will want to pull it over.

   2. Can the tops themselves be supported in accordance with the manufacturer's specs? I would be thinking of a tubular steel frame, and some sort of connection to the floor as often as possible. That is a big pile of money for material, and you only want to do it once. Assume the worst-somewhere down the road, some idiot will sit, stand, or dance on those tops. Build for that situation, don't assume that the finished product will be treated with respect.

   Architects will often dream this stuff up, and have no idea whether or not it will actually work. They depend on the subs to figure it out, and if there is a problem down the road, it will be you that will be expected to make it right.

   sorry to ramble, coffee just kicked in

   Bob Lang

   http://www.craftsmanplans.com