I am building a Newport style tall clock and have a beautiful croch walnut panel which will be the front of the door. The top is straighter grain and I have carved the shell in it. WHile sanding it developed a crack running across the panel. To make matters worse, the panel has developed a slight bow in it. I think this ma have happened since the shell is integral with the panel and I removed more material from one side of the board, to allow the shell to stand proud of the surface. I will be able to screw into the panel fom behind, holding it flat against the door frame, but this will tend to open the crack slightly further. I have attached two photos. Would it be better to glue this with superglue (cyanoacrylate) or epoxy? I will be using walnut dust and shellac as a grain filler, and spraying shellac over it. I want something that will not turn white in the crack or make it stand out. Thanks for the advice.
Jay
Replies
I can see why you don't want to simply make another panel.
I know that Edward Barnsley (the incredible English cabinet maker) once had to make a complete set of new Brazilian rosewood panels for a cabinet when they warped just a bit after raising, rather than have doors that did not align correctly.
It looks like you should use epoxy for this fix. I don't use "super-glues," but I also don't believe that they fill gaps. The epoxy will fill the gap. I use it often in cracks, not adding any fillers to it, but making sure the crack is over-full when I apply it. You should also use a good quality epoxy, like West System, which may keep you from having air bubbles in it like 5 minute epoxies tend to have.
It may add a dark line where the crack is initially, which shouldn't be objectionable, and I think it will look natural. The problem will occur in 20 years or so when the walnut fades a bit and turns a golden color but the epoxy still looks dark. It's probably the right thing to do in your situation. Do not clamp the board to bring the crack together!!!!!! Just fill it with epoxy.
Go for it.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
OK two questions. First, since the board has some bow in it, would you clamp it to the bench so it's perfectly flat (slightly opening the crack) and then fill with epoxy, or would you fill whatever small gap exists while the board has its slight natural bow and then screw it to the door frame so it is flattened after the epoxy cures? Second, how exactly would you apply the epoxy to get it in the crack and not on the surface surrounding the crack?
Regarding why I don't just do it again: This was an exceptional board with a beautiful crotch figure, and I had to cut about a 6 1/2 inch section out of the center of a 20+ inch wide board in order to get this panel. It seemed like a waste, but I called and emailed suppliers all over the country looking for a narrower piece of crotch walnut that would have figure along the lenth of the door (about 27 inches), and had no success. When crotch is that long, it is also wide. I had to order this from Goby out in Oregon, and it was not cheap. In any case, I also invested about 5 hours in carving the shell.
Thanks,
Jay
Jay
Hal's advice is good. I just saw the thread, and thought I'd also chime in. When I use epoxy to fill cracks in crotch wood, I always get the stock, (in this case your door) in the position that it will stay in before using the epoxy. I've never attached one piece to another like you propose, but I would definately do that FIRST if I were you. That way, the crotch stock is in it's final resting place, with regards to bow.
Once you've mixed the epoxy, you can drizzle it into the crack, allowing it to fill completely. You can tape both sides of the crack carefully if you wish, but I wouldn't worry about it. The epoxy will scrape off just fine with a sharp scraper once it sets. I let it set until it's firm, but not wait until it's cured, if you know what I mean.
I've got some cherry crotches that are beautiful, all flitched to each other, drying in my wood shed. They are all split, and will need the same attention when they become bookmatched doors.
Jeff
Edited 10/23/2006 9:11 am ET by JeffHeath
Would you agree that the 5 minute harware store variety epoxy is not suitable or would that be just fine for a crack of this small size?
Jay
Jay -
I've used epoxy mixed with fine walnut dust in the past - use a long setting time stuff to get a good chance to work the dust into it.
And where did you get that piece? - it's outstanding!
The wood comes from Goby Walnut in Oregon, as I mentioned in an earlier post. Sometimes it is referred to as claro walnut. I am making the entire piece from curly, figured boards. I have about $1400. in the wood (including about $300. shipping from Oregon), but if I don't mess it up, it will be exquisite. I have used their wood before on a secretary, and it is variegated with purplish streaks and has beautiful figure, rather than the monotonous brown of some eastern black walnut.
Regarding the issue of dust in the epoxy or not, please talk about hte pros and cons of that. I was thinking that the crack would visually disappear under a shellac coating if filled with the clear epoxy. Is that not true?
Jay
I think it will look fine under shellac. There is so much color in this wood that no one will notice.
I also disagree with everyone that is saying you should have used veneer. This is beautiful wood. You would have had a terrible time trying to roll crotch veneer over that rolled edge, even using fabric softener and hot water. I don't even know if you can buy Claro Walnut veneer.
And just so you know, I use a lot of veneer, so I'm not opposed to it. I buy it; I make it when I need to.
I just think that this is what you decided to do and it will be pretty spectacular when finished.
Claro walnut (or Western Walnut, or California Walnut, or whatever you want to call it) is one of the most beautiful woods in the world. Good for you for working it. I love working with it, myself. There is nothing else like it. It is wonderful to carve!
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
If you heat the epoxy with a hair drier or heat gun while you dribble in in the crack it will penetrate further than while cold, then over fill and scrape. Rick
Hi JayS,
You can use the hardware store variety. Do not use 5 minute epoxy though. Also, make sure you mix it as per instructions. If you get the type in the double syringe (which is the easiest to use), it is best to mix much more than you need as the more you mix, the more accurate the syringes measure.
You should wear protective gloves when you use epoxy. It is very toxic and easily absorbs into skin. And whatever you do, don't wash it off yourself with acetone or lacquer thinner. They simply dilute it so it absorbs into you even easier. It is best to just wipe it off as well as you can and wash your hands with soap and water afterward.
It is also a good idea after mixing thoroughly to let the epoxy mixture sit for a few minutes before applying. Some of the bubbles will rise to the top, which you can skim off so they don't end up in your crack.
Another good thing to do with epoxy is to have your shop, the epoxy, and the board at around 70 degrees before you start. Ideally your shop should be cooling off as the epoxy is setting so that the wood absorbs it rather than outgassing, which causes bubbles.
Yes, I would flatten it to its final position prior to the epoxy. Otherwise it may crack somewhere else. And masking the surrounding area is a good idea. Ideally, you only want it in the crack. You will be able to scrape and sand it after it cures.
I wouldn't add fillers. If you add walnut dust it will only make little walnut dust chunks in the epoxy. The epoxy doesn't need black filler either. It will appear black when you are finished.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Not to be snooty, but I would never use that cheap stuff on an beautiful piece of crotch walnut furniture in my business. Use the good stuff, you won't be sorry.
Jeff
You might also look up a company called Smith and Co. they supply epoxy for the boat builders here in the San Francisco bay area and they have epoxy fillers that you add their powered pigments to it so you can color the epoxy a redish brown color or just a black color. I don't have their contact info off hand but I am sure you can google it or call the Japan woodworker and they might be able to get the contact info for you. Looks like the effort will be well worth it with wood like that.
good luck
Troy
Jay, If you use epoxy, white vinegar will clean it up.
I use the West System on occasion and white vinegar works very well for clean-up.
I am also wondering if just some hot hide glue rubbed over the crack might work. You could then use a thinned hot glue to size and fill the grain as well before finishing.
Just a thought.
J.P.
Edit: Why didn't you just use veneer for the panel and apply the carving? Just curious.
http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
Edited 10/23/2006 7:08 pm ET by JP
JP
I was thinking the same with regards to veneering, but he already had it built, so I figured I'd leave it alone. A nice crotch veneer right over a solid piece of walnut, which he then carved at the top, would have looked just great.
Jeff
The panel has rounded over edges which produces surfaces that meet at a 45 degree angle in the corners. It would be possible to bend veneer over the edges but I think the corners would have been difficult. Also, I think it looks better if the grain continues uninterrupted through the shell, and this is the way it appears the Newport Townsend clocks were done. Finally, in the FWW article on making a clock like this, the author suggested having the shell integral with the panel.
If I am understanding correctly, the other posters are suggesting using the epoxy as a space filler rather than an adhesive, per se. Hide glue doesn't do this all that well and will not dry transparent. It would leave a yellowish line in the crack.
Thanks.
Jay
I would use a colored shellac stick and simply melt it into the crack. Use a color that is as close to the finish color and it will look fine, I use it on repairs all the time.Don't get too hung up on it, it will add some age and character too the piece.
I am assuming it is not a structural crack but if it is I woud put a butterfly repair on the back side also.
I have found shellac stick to be impossible to use without getting some bubbles in it, when the crack or void is wider than a hair. The crack is not structural and I would never put a butterfly in this piece. This outfit does sell crotch veneer and when I build my secretary I used it. I actually bought about 15 sheets of a 3 foot by 5 foot flitch since I had to do the front and back of both tombstone door panels as well as 6 drawer fronts and the front and back of the fold-down lid of the desk. I will attach a photo later this evening.
Jay
Of course I meant that the butterfly would be on the BACK of the door, in which case it would be acceptable in my opinion. You are right about shellac in that it takes a few tries to get out the bubbles, I use a heat gun as the heat source. Also on large cracks it is not as good but yours don't appear to be more than 1/16. Another method on larger cracks that I use is to take a piece of paper and with a pencil trace over the crack. On a similar piece of wood glue on this piece of paper. This gives you a template to follow of the crack pattern. Cut it on a bandsaw and use a knife to fine tune it,It gets tricky when the crack gets small because the piece can break,but it can stll be useable. I then taper the piece to wedge into the crack with glue.It takes time but it looks like the piece is worth the extra effort.
rompus62, this isn't about claro walmut so much as it is about epoxy repair. I'm on a cabinet job using white oak, there are some small knots and other defects that I would like to camoflage. The peice will be stained first with a black aniline dye and the sanded for a popping the grain effect. Question(?) using the west system what would you suggest to fill the larger knot holes(3/16") a combination of the epoxy and?- thank you for your time, GoodWorkings-bufun
My thing about the epoxy is that I think it is totally unneccessary. If you can utilize real wood instead it makes for a better repair. Sure it takes a little more time to grain match and fit but the ultimate result is superior to a chemical compound with no grain at all. I have been doing high end antique repair for 15 years and have never used an epoxy on the show side of a piece.The only problem is that sometimes the repair will pop when a finish is applied but I usually wet the repair a few times and resand lightly.
rompus62, so inlay is the direction I should consider utilizing the router inlay kit and an adriot grainmatching?Are your inlays organic in shape? and what about knots with small peices gone and the client wants the knot for the rustic look? and finally this web-site and workers such as yourself has been a most positive turn in my work. GoodWorkings-bufun
Well I prefer not to call it inlay. the point is not to make the crack any bigger.Do not use a router in your case . If you have to utilize smaller pieces of wood to fill the crack along it's full length then I would do that(matching the grain as much as possible). I have filled many cracks this way. I only use a router on large damaged areas. I try to rout out an area that follows a grain line so can match it better. On areas without obvious grain I use a diamond or other type of geometric shape that looks good, then I sometimes will paint in a grain line to hide it. i don't claim to have a foolproof method, someone else might have a better way but I have never had a complaint from an antique dealer about my repairs.
Rompus,
As an aside, you may be interested in post #8697 dated 24August 2005 and the ones following.
I agree with your sentiments, but the crack in question is not big enough for your suggested treatment.Philip Marcou
If you were building the clock for me, I would want you to celebrate the natural aspects of the wood. Its just a natural evolution of wood. Many old pieces endure with naturally occurring age (defects), I think we all have a piece or two that shows some age, it doesn't bother me at all.Ron
Hello,
I would use a little epoxy, then create decorative and strutrialy re-enforcing butterflies of say maple birds eye. It will be decorative and structurally re-enforcing. Use an inlay down bit and router it all the way trough. Take a little off with each cut.
Rich
Jay, that is a beautiful start, and it is a shame that the crack has appeared, but things can get a lot worse if you don't choose the right course of action.
It would have been nice to know what the beginning MC was when you started, and what it is now, and since you have not filled out any profile information, nobody offering advice knows what the expected EMC will be for the final location that the finished piece will reside. However, since you said that it has bowed up, that could indicate that while you left it laying on the bench, that it could have lost moisture on the top face but not on the back.
I hope you know that the face of this board is more-or-less equal to the end-grain of most other lumber, and that you need to allow for movement up and down the length of this board more than across its width, so keep that in mind when it comes time to screw it to the back boards. You may be able to remove some of the bow by covering the face, and heating the back with either lamps or in the sun.
You could use the CA glue to fill this, but it will saturate the grain around the crack, and will take a lot of sanding to get through that, so I would recommend using epoxy.
If you have a dust bag on your belt sander or orbital, you can use some of that to color and thicken, and you should be sure to get a glue syringe to inject it into the crack with.
What is MC and EMC? I am located in Atlanta, GA. Of course, I do understand the nature of the wood movement in this case, but it is a good point and one that many people may not be aware of. To screw the panel on, I was going to use normal screw holes at the top and "L" shaped wood clips to hook around the door frame at the lower end, since I don't want the relationship of the shell to the arch of the door to change much. Thanks.
Jay
MC = moisture content, and EMC = equilibrium moisture content, which is the level it will achieve after it is in a controlled atmosphere after a period of time. since you said that it came from the Pacific NW, and that the color was lively, I will assume that it was not steamed, but could still have been kiln dried, but if it was out in an open-air shed up there, it could have picked up enough moisture to be back to the level of air-dried lumber for that area, which I would expect to be quite high. I think if I were you, I would try to find out what the MC is now before you attach it. If you don't have a meter, I'll bet if you walked into a store that sold them, or a good cabinet shop with that, they would meter it for you.If those cracks were not there before you sanded, I would consider them to be red flags warning of other potential problems later. I guess the clips are to allow the wood to move at the bottom, but I would still want to know what to expect.
Any suggestions to fix a crack in cypress? Since the epoxy will be dark or black upon drying, is there anything I could use since this is a lighter colored wood?
Jay,
Sorry about the problems with the walnut crotch.
I made a coffee table from a slab of walnut crotch a few years ago and had several cracks that worried me as well. My solution was to simply make Butterfly keys to lock them in and not have to worry about them later on. I prefer to see wood the way it truly is rather than try to hide any and all of the natural blemishes.
I've attached a few photos for your perusal.
Good luck.
Phillip
Jay, I am just picking up on this thread now after some travelling.
I see folks like Keith and Hal amongst others have raised some good points.
A superb board like that is worth extra time and effort, and in some ways the figure, being "busy", makes it easier to make cosmetic repairs. I have done my fair share of Jaguar, Rolls etc woodwork and many is the time I have found that, on stripping the finish, all sorts of tricks were used to "disappear" cracks and voids, such as transplanting knots and other suitable features, and the use of felt tip pens to colour lines .
If it were my board I would use shellac in that crack, as you are doing a shellac finish anyway.Wax also can be good. I have found CynoAc (super glues) only useful for hairline cracks. If the finish was to be lacquer then I would prefer a quickset epoxy to which some of the finest sanding dust gas been added-really fine stuff as you get from 600 paper.Some of these epoxies do not like foreign ingredients, so experimenting is in order.
So I have rambled on without adding anything- but I am keen to see what you do in the end-take your time, especially if the board is not in equilibrium.
Thanks. Let me add this question: Since this panel has to be attached to the door frame, would you attach it first, then fill grain and spray finish, or would you finish first then attach? If the former, it could shrink and expose unfinished surface on the frame. If the latter, I would have to temporarily clamp it flat to the door to fill the crack and then unclamp it after the epoxy sets, for finishing. Since I am a home woodworker doing this on weekends, I am at least 3-4 months away from finihsing the whole piece and the board be sitting around the shop for a while. Any advice?
Jay
Jay,
There will be seasonal movement anyway whatever you do, but the important thing to be sure of is that the board is in equilibrium when you finally attach it/fit it into the frame, then any movement will be minimilised.
I think I would want to temporarily clamp it to a frame or any means to flatten it , but air should be able to circulate evenly around it.
Since you are using shellac ,finshing before final assembly is easier.
Since there is bound to be seasonal movement, pre-finishing will mask the evidence-which is no big deal anyway since it is natural. Again, the evidence can be hidden by a wipe of shellac...I would not lose any sleep.
But I would be losing sleep if the movement (clock works) is not of a quality to match the panel- what are you using?(just so I can be envious).Philip Marcou
It is a traditional weight driven movement from Green Lake Clock co (Mike Siemsen). This company was recommended by Lonnie Bird in his series of articles on making a tall clock. I am having a clock dial painter Kathi Edwards, paint the dial and arch painting. It is an expensive proposition, but one I have always wanted to do, and if I don't mess it up, it willl hopefully be a family heirloom. The painting alone is about $500, and we are doing a farm scene. The movement has a rocker mechanism originally intended for a tall ship to rock in front of a nautical scene, but I made a cutout of a horse jumping a fence from sheet metal and it will rock back and forth synchronously with the pendulum.
Jay
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