Replies

1. 
   artw | Nov 01, 2004 05:08am | #1

   There is no competition at all, General  is by far the better of the two. I almost bought a General table saw at a woodworking show, but they were all sold out. I ended up with a Grizzly and I love it. If you check out Grizzly and General, you might have a hard time choosing. I would not waste my time with Sears.

   Ken

1. 
   jfantaci | Nov 02, 2004 11:03pm | #3

   Thanks for the info.  I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

2. 
   walnutjerry | Nov 30, 2004 05:30am | #13

   I have a Sears TS I purchased in the 70's-----it is a 12" blade with a 2hp motor and can be operated on 110 or 220.  The only trouble I have is with the fence after a "friend" overtightened and broke the mechanisim inside the fence. He tried to repair it but it will not stay parallel with the blade. I think I will eventually invest in a good fence.

   As far as power and cutting-----I am happy with it. The cutting has a lot to do with the blade type, sharpness, and material you work with regardless of the brand of saw.

   Any input on the type of replacement fence?

    

2. 
   Stever | Nov 01, 2004 09:42am | #2

   when someone says there's "no comparison" between General & the new Craftsman saws, there *might* be some truth to it. (But not necessarily the "truth" the anti-Craftsman person might want to hear :-) )

   I've used General (and Grizzly) cabinet saws in shops in the past. I like 'em.

   I just bought a new Craftsman Professional 22124 Table Saw. 

   I didn't bother with the Griz or the General when I made the purchase.

   One of my requirements is that the saw run on 120V.  The Craftsman does and, at 1.75 HP , it provides quite adequate power for my needs. (I ran some 6/4 hickory through  the saw right after asembly and I expected to have to go slow with that stuff. I didn't. It cut like drawn butter.)

   Regarding price -- the Craftsman models can be obtained for quite a few different prices judging from the various reports I've heard. My own case is an example.... The list price for the 22124 (that's the one with the full cabinet style base and the Biesemeyer fence)   is $949.  

   I paid $879 for mine and that price included All TAXES PLUS a two-year extended service warranty that includes on-site service with instant replacement if repairs can't be effected then and there. By the way, shipping was Free.

   When you're looking at *prices* only, you need to remember to add Taxes, shipping and service contracts to the bottom line. 

   Oh ... since I mentioned Service, I need to gloat about this point...

   The contract delivery service the local Sears store uses merely dropped my saw off at the curb. Had I not had a mover's dolly, the saw would not have made it to my garage.  I wasn't a happy camper about this and spoke with some folks at Sears about it (the saw needed to end up on my back patio). Sears knocked an additional $40 off of my price right then and there for my difficulties.

   Sears then contacted the carrier they use and made arrangements to have him do what he was supposed to have done to start with. He refused.  One more phone call to Sears got two hardware department managers on the road to my home to move the saw.  (remember... this sucker weighs in at over 420 pounds!)

   Those fellows got the saw to my shop area without breaking a sweat. It was sweet. That was SERVICE !!

   Just hope to try to get that sort of service from General or Grizzly...

   Oh yeah.. I almost forgot( after all of the above)... Yes, I DO like the saw. It is fantastic. I have no regrets about it and couldn't be more pleased.

   Steve

   Penury is the Mother of Invention

   http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/

   Mesa, Arizona

1. 
   jfantaci | Nov 02, 2004 11:06pm | #4

   Thanks for the advice.  From one of your comments, can I assume correctly that the Grizzly and General require a 220 outlet?

1. 
   Ribeye | Nov 04, 2004 09:17am | #5

   You asked a tough question about voltages :-)

   As I recall -- and I am thinking back about 10 years ago -- both the General and the Delta Unisaw that were in the last shop I was a proctor in were both running on 220V AC. Sorry, but I just don't know if either (today) has a 120V option -- but IF they do, you'd better hope to have a dedicated 30-AMP circuit (just) for the TS.

   With the General, the Griz or the Unisaw you are indeed looking at a full kerf (1/8) blade being driven by a motor that's generating somewhere between 3 - 5 HP.  That blade will cut, clomp and smash through a lot of wood (and other debris) and not break much of a sweat.

   The  new Craftsman, OTOH, runs a Thin Kerf Blade on a 1.75 HP motor.  That's half the blade width and half the HP.  (Is that bad? Some will gleefully say, "YES, it is horrid!".  Frankly, I don't really think they have all of their numbers in the same bucket.) 

   I just did a 45-degree rip of a 36" long "Tuba Fir" that was "interesting".  I just picked up the 10-foot  doug fir 2x4 at the BORG and had to dry my hands by the time I got it to the truck. That was one of the *wettest* pieces of green timber I've ever seen!

   I needed to rip this piece and couldn't wait two weeks for it to become bone dry in the natural Arizona open-air kiln.

   It was a (very) slow feed across the blade.  I might have been able to feed it a bit faster but ... well, it just didn't feel right so I opted for patience.  (I did get a fair shower for my effort, though!)

   Oh yeah, I need to add to the above that I was using a 36-tooth Freud blade that is sold (rebranded) as the stock blade on a Ryobi BT 3100 saw -- I am saving the Leitz blade (that came stock on the Craftsman 22124) for important cuts.  I *have* noticed a tremendous difference in both rips and cross cuts between those two blades: the Lietz is FAR superior.

1. 
   jfantaci | Nov 04, 2004 05:26pm | #6

   Thanks again.  That helps.

2. 
   Dave_Elliott | Nov 10, 2004 03:29am | #7

   Grizzly sells a 110V 2HP version of its 1023 cabinet saw for $903.00 delivered.

2. 
   Dustmight | Nov 14, 2004 02:07am | #9

   Jim - The General International (GI) 50-185M1 that's mentioned in the initial post will run well on most standard 110v outlets and draws 15 amps.  It can be switched to 220v if desired.  The Grizzly 0444Z requires either a 30amp 110v outlet (not common), or a 220v outlet b/c it draws 24amps @ 110v.  Grizzly does offer a G0444 for a 1-1/2hp motor that draws lower current and will run on a standard 110v outlet. 

   All three of the new Sears models will run on 110v.  The can probably be switched to 220, but I'm not sure....

1. 
   jfantaci | Nov 15, 2004 08:10pm | #10

   Thanks for your messages.  That's what makes this site so good--experienced people take the time to help us novices!

2. 
   chipo | Nov 17, 2004 12:40am | #11

   The Sears saws can be rewired for 220. I have the mid-range model, and I'm going to do so as soon as my electrician gets around to wiring the outlet to the panel.I'm very happy with the saw. It had a problem ripping in a straight line, which turned out to be because the table was misaligned to the blade. Aligning it was trivially easy. Only thing I wish it had is a riving knife that elevates with the blade.

3. 
   Dustmight | Nov 14, 2004 01:59am | #8

   I've owned the GI 50-185M1 for nearly two years and am very pleased with it.  I've looked at all three of the new Craftsman saws and like what I see for the price....especially the top model.  The $650 mid Sears model goes on sale often for ~ $540....making them different price points.  The fence on the GI is quite similar to the fence on the $900 Sears, and is IMO (and likely other's opinions) the better of the two fences when compared to the aluminum fence on the mid-priced Sears...but the Sears fence looked to be adequate, plus it has a pull back fence for indexing on crosscuts.  The miter gauge on the GI is very good for a stock gauge....it's machined cast iron and is more heavy duty than the Sears miter, but the Sears miter is loaded with nice features including a crosscut fence and a clamp down system.  Both saws have cast iron wings.  DC should be better on the Sears, but with a shop built boot and a dust tray, DC on the GI can be pretty good.  The trunnions on the Sears are cabinet mounted which is something we're likely to see more of in the future....it's a better design.  GI has done an excellent job executing a well proven design, but perhaps we'll be seeing less of the traditional contractor saw design in the future....especially now that there's a separate classification of actual portable jobsite saws.  The Sears has a smaller footprint b/c of the enclosed base.  The motor on the GI is a powerhouse, but I doubt you'll have much problem with either.....the right blade will make more difference than a stronger motor. 

   To me, the GI oozes with quality and great fit and finish on a well built saw that's proven and should last a lifetime for most hobbyists. The Sears is an intriguing new design with little to no track record....reliability, service, parts availability are all unknowns.  GI's customer service is excellent.  The GI will run $650-$699....with new pricing in effect it's likely to stay closer to $699, which really puts in the middle of the two higher priced Sears models.  The more I look at the $900 Sears, the more I like it.  At full price, I think the Grizzly and Shop Fox cabinet saws trump the Sears unless the 220v requirement for the 3hp motor isn't possible. If I were looking at a GI 50-185M1 for $699, but could get the Sears for under $800 (I've seen it go for near $750), I think it would be a tough decision.  Fortunately my GI was < $550 when I got it, and there  was really nothing else to compare it to other than an $850 Delta, Jet, or PM that really didn't offer any advantages IMO.  Another minor consideration is that the GI has longer rails available for a minimal charge ($20-$50) in the "LM1" model. 

   So in a nutshell, the saws are very different.  The GI has been a consistently top rated saw by a very well respected company.  The new Orion made saws at Sears lack history, and Sears has burned some bridges over the past few years IMO....but if they're offering a good TS NOW, I don't think it should be overlooked.  Which one to get depends largely on what's important to the individual and how they view the various features and quality of the saws.  FWIW, I'm not putting my GI up for sale anytime soon!   ...Now that's my 25 cents worth!

     

4. 
   alanplanesaw | Nov 25, 2004 06:05am | #12

   I agree with others.  There is not much comparison between General and Craftsman.  The Craftsman might be cheaper, but you won't find parts or help for it in a few years. 

   I have a General and they have a reputation for taking care of things in the long run.  If you take your time, do some good research on tool reviews, I think you will typically find General comes out way ahead of Craftsman. 

   If you are going to base a decision on price only and whether they will carry it to your back patio, then you will get what you pay for.

   Better to make your decision on the quality of the machine itself, the reputation of the company, and how long they will have parts for the machine.

   Alan - planesaw