Long story but maybe entertaining to some.
So I’m building this entertainment center for a new client. See 31468.1
Their interior designer hired me since I’ve built stuff in the past for this designer and she likes my work.
The contract was sent on Aug 3 with an “estimated” completion date of Aug 30 written in. I didn’t receive the signed contract or 50% deposit until Aug 20th.
The portion of the contract referring to delivery date says, “The below said completion date is an approximation of when it will be completed. Independent Contractor will do his best to meet the said date.
Client may not withhold any monies if Independent Contractor is not able to meet “Exact” date.
Expected Completion Date: August 30th, 2006″
There is some fancy curved doors required for this job that I originally intended to order. I knew that these doors could cause an issue with lead time so I wrote next to above paragraph (with ink) on her copy and mine of the contract, “Pending curved door lead-time.” She signed just below that note.
Once I tried to order the doors I found out the supplier wanted 7 or more weeks to make them. So I informed the client I will be making them to help speed things up. She was ok with that as long as I “do a good job”.
Now she and her husband are freaking out on the phone at me because I “screwed them” and “reneged” on my delivery date because I didn’t deliver by Aug. 30th. They fired the designer because of me.
Now, since the finish is supposed to be done curing this Saturday, I should deliver it Sunday because, “That’s good customer service.” “My husband is a surgeon and he works 7 days a week!” I said no to Sunday, but what about Monday and she sad she can’t because she has to work! Like that’s more important than my Sunday with the kids?? So we’re set for Tuesday, and she ends the conversation with, “it had BETTER be here Tuesday <click>”.
What are my options? I know I want to throw this through their window…should I reimburse the deposit and tell them to get lost? I’d love to, but it would hurt financially.
I did tell her they can pick it up Sunday and I’ll drop the delivery and set-up charge. They can’t because they don’t have a big truck.
Edited 9/8/2006 4:54 pm ET by Mumda
Edited 9/8/2006 5:20 pm ET by Mumda
Edited 9/8/2006 9:21 pm ET by Mumda
Replies
Change the language, in the future, to read "X number of days after receipt of deposit" or by "such and such a date if deposit received by such and such a date." Or just always pad your delivery date estimate. A lot. Especially if you routinely go out of house for components. I've yet to run across a customer that didn't want SOME idea of when a piece might be delivered. Maloof can get away with "you'll get it when it's ready." My hat is off to anybody who also quotes like this.
The word, by the way, is "renege."
Just deliver the unit, shake their hand, say you're sorry and move on.
Maybe go back in a couple of weeks and slash the tires on their Mercedes.
Or build a secret compartment and put a freshly killed mouse in it on the day of delivery. Now that, my friend, would be a hoot.
Edited 9/8/2006 5:18 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
The contract is already changed. That's one of the first things I thought of. Thanks for the info on renege!I like the tire idea, but that's just anger speaking...
See the last line of my edited post...
Boss this is your first reply on this thread... or is it?
The only other thread that has been edited(beyond the OP) is Taunton...
Methinks we have a dual personality here. ROFL!!! I knew the two of them were close but I never suspected they wore the same skin! Ohmigod, my sides hurt, hah hah hah hah.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
My first post was inexplicably deleted... I guess by the webelves.......
I like your posts...
uummm...
Telephone them in advance and relay the balance owed and ask for payment upon completion of the installation.
That's already done. The concern is if the check is going to be real.
Hello,
This is a great discussion, especially for guys like me who are just getting started in the business end of woodworking. I see several of the more experienced crafts persons/business persons referring to wording in their contract. How about a sample of those contracts in their entirety?
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Edited 9/9/2006 11:32 am ET by salamfam
Ask her if she has your phone # handy. If she asks why its because you would like her to lose it.
Do everything you can to get paid in full and forget about these miserable people. Nothing you can do for them will EVER be good enough. Life is way too short to have stress over situations like that.
Make sure you have help (witnesses) when you install. They sound crazy enough to claim anything.
My offer still stands if you need help installing. I'll be the one wearing the hard hat, steel toed boots and speedo. That'll should distract them long enough to get the cash. I'm making myself sick with the imagery..........LOL
-Paul
"Do everything you can to get paid in full and forget about these miserable people. Nothing you can do for them will EVER be good enough."That's where I am with this. Do my best, get in and get out. Designer says HO is all bark and will kiss my arse when I see her face to face with the project.Oh, you can help as long as it's a shark toothed speedo you're wearing.
Blahahahahaaaaaaaaa!!! I like how you think!Actually, I have already realized how I'm going to get my little payback; there is nothing in my contract saying I will install the plasma TV into the unit, or all the other components, it just says I will deliver and install the unit into the house. Therefore, I will assemble everything tight against the wall and when they ask why I didn't mount the TV, I'll explain that isn't allowed by my Liability Policy and I leave that for the homeowners. I'll give them the mounting instructions and explain that it's not very difficult. Hopefully, I'll be gone before they realize one side of the assembly has to be unscrewed and removed to access the mount screws and wires.
No one seemed to want to comment on your TV installation comment...I thought it was a funny/good idea.
-Ryan
Hehehe...not really doing anything wrong. I may even type up a waiver for them to sign allowing me to install that stuff, for an additional $75.
Now your thinking!!!
Just a word of advice on moving any electronic equipment (TV, DVD, computers, etc.) Before you touch it, demand that it be run through its paces to demonstrate that it works. The last thing you want is to pay for a new plasma display that "worked before you moved it."
VERY good advice!!!!
I don't necessarily agree--offer to help them install the TV & whatever else needed by the unit. The extra hour will go a long way to appease their ill feelings (if they have any at all). Who does the communicating? Wife or surgeon? Might find there is also a difference of opinion between the two. The important one is the one who signs the check.
Tony, I see your point but I'm convinced there is not appeasing. -I got them a TV mount for $60 that the store wanted to charge them $200. -I made them doors that would still be on order for 3 more weeks to save time.-I actually called and told them days earlier it won't be done on XX day instead of me not showing up without calling or anything.I give them an inch, and they want a mile. I won't give anymore. There is nothing in the contract saying I install components. When you buy a Entertainment center from the store and they deliver it, do they install your stuff? Nope.If they want it installed by me, they can pay my $75 fee. I hope they choose to do it themselves...bahahahaaaaaa!!!!
Are you a hifi specialist? if not don't install the TV and the rest of the bits. i would only drill the mounting holes to prevent their hifi guy distroying my work!
I would like to suggest that you call the clients asap to confirm the delivery and installation on Tuesday and tell them (politely if possible) that the payment must be by Certified Check or Prepaid Money Order for the entire balance. No bounced check!
Excellent idea, I will do that! It's less awkward than demanding cash, and they can still make it payable to my company name so they know it's a legit deal. Thanks!
Your welcome.Now you need to find a Muslim helper that will have to stop in the middle of helping you carry and install, to pray. You being the tolerant and respectful man that you are quietly leave the room until your helper is done.;-)
Blaaaahahahaha....I like how you think.FYI: It's been raining all day so far so they wouldn't get a delivery anyhow.
No, not a specialist at all.
I wouldn't even drill the holes. They may not have the right mount (if they have a wall mount) and there's almost no chance of it being to their liking at this point. I can almost hear her shrill voice saying, "It doesn't look right. Oh, no. This is all wrong! You're screwing us!" Then, when asked what doesn't look right, she can't describe it, it just doesn't look right.About the only holes I would include are the ones for the cables to go through, with grommets. Even then, it's probably a losing proposition because they'll invariably be in a position that makes their store-bought Munster Cables about 4" too short. 2 metesr is too short, 3 or 4 meters is too long and they won't like spending the money on cables that are long enough to actually remove the equipment without moving the cabinet.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The mount is already attached to the cabinet. All that has to be done is mount the second part of the mount to the back of the TV and then hang the TV on the cabinet mount. The issue is running the wires; they have to be ran with the TV hanging in the cabinet...which will be pushed tight against the wall.It has to look right because I made it look exactly like the drawing and color computer rendering they signed off. Only difference is they decided to go more "mocha" with the color instead of dark cherry like the rendering.
I don't know if you already have one but Sears sells a rectangular inspection mirror, the same as a lot of auto parts stores but at Sears, it comes with a lifetime warranty, in case it breaks. That and a flashlight makes it a lot easier to plug the cables in the right jacks. Hopefully, the TV is the kind with the input jacks facing down.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yes, I have one and I've used it several times for this very reason. I doubt these home owners have one.
I'm with those who say don't touch the TV. I just installed my own plasma TV. I'm no more a wiring expert than a cabinetmaker, but it would have been easy to drop it-those suckers are heavy. In addition, the TV attaches to the mount with some bolts that would have been easy to overtorque and bust something. One alternative would be to subcontract the installation to a pro. Connecting the receiver, satellite, etc. made my head hurt.
By the way, in many jurisdictions, your lien rights may depend on how permanently attached to the building the unit is. If it is just a piece of (stupendously crafted) furniture, you probably have no lien rights.
We all await the delivery story. Good luck!
Edited 9/11/2006 4:03 pm ET by smslaw
OK, an hour may be enough for some systems but consider the worst case. This is a large cabinet and there's room for a lot of equipment. If they have a multi-zone system with distributed audio, an IR repeater, universal remote that needs assigning and programming, antenna hookup, satellite receiver (you know they'll want someone to stay so they're sure they can watch TV that night), fiber optic cables that need to go into specific inputs, etc. With enough equipment, there can be a 3" bundle of cables, or more. Something like this can't be wired in an hour, even by someone who does it for a living. You'd be surprised how fast an hour flies by when some little thing goes wrong, like component cables making the picture not work at all or just show green.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
that's a good point... I just finished doing that very thing with my own system earlier in the week.. took me 7 (leisurely) hours.. I'm a wireman to trade too..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I concede!
Really, I'm offering some suggestions to prevent the purchaser from becoming a "non-payer" for the remainder due.
And I appreciate these suggestions. Thanks!
I'll give them the mounting instructions and explain that it's not very difficult.
Maybe you get get the nice people over at Laguna to help you write the manual!
ROFLRennie
A man is a fool if he drinks before he reaches the age of 50, and a fool if he doesn't afterward. Frank Lloyd Wright
They may be crazy or you may be, I don't know. What I do know is you have the cabinet and they have the money. So, despite that they are a hassle to deal with, put on your best smiley face, dust the cabinet well, and deliver it on Tuesday. Don't bump any doorways on the way in! Collect your money, smile, shake hands, and leave. While all this is happening they may be calling you a whole bunch of dirty names and calling your dog ugly to boot. Keep smiling. If you stay on the high road you will be OK. And, you don't have to work for them again.
I used to give a delivery date in writing but stopped doing that a number of years ago. Part of this is because my projects have gotten more complicated and I simply cannot predict the finish date and part is because I always hated the pressure. No one ever complains that the projects take a long time. Maybe this is because they've already waited months for me to be able to even start on their project. They're making a non-essential purchase anyway and know they'll get a better product if I take the time that's necessary. I very seldom do anything that's on a strict timeline anymore. New construction is the worst!
Tell her you want a CASH balance on tues, you are terribly sorry but between banks at the moment.
Demand the cash and then leave the cabinets on her front lawn. Also let her know you appreciate her husbands 7 day a week life saving efforts but to the best of your knowledge no one has ever died because they had to wait a day to get their new f!@#$% wall unit.
They will probably bad-mouth you and the designer now no matter what, so why not have some fun? What a great story to tell.
What is the matter with people anyway? You are just trying to earn a living. Do these people actually think it is your intention to screw them?
Call me if you need help with the delivery.
-Paul
"let her know you appreciate her husbands 7 day a week life saving efforts but to the best of your knowledge no one has ever died because they had to wait a day to get their new f!@#$% wall unit. "I like that. I plan to use that comment if there is any conversation."You are just trying to earn a living. Do these people actually think it is your intention to screw them?"I'm also trying to make something that brings happiness into peoples lives. And yes, it was actually said by her that, "you are screwing us."
They obviously don't know the nature of wood and it's stability after milling (or lack therof) and the fact that finishes need time to be fully cured or dry, so you might want to fill them in on this. Also, explain that the Aug. 30 delivery date was based on them getting the contract back to you before the date it was returned. I think next time, a clause stating the time between your receipt of the signed contract and completion should be included. Her husband works 7 days a week but he also makes a lot more money. She's taking herself way too seriously. Screwing them would be taking their money, being 6 months late and delivering something made of cardboard. Being a couple of weeks late is hardly the end of the world unless they were having a party with the entertainment center as the guest of honor.5-1/2 million years from now, who'll know if it was late or not?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks highfigh. I did explain that stuff several times when I first called to say the date was slipping. They said they understand as long as I do a good job. Now that it had to slip 3 more days (Tuesday instead of Friday) they explode on me because I won't come out late Saturday evening or some time Sunday to deliver. (Explode=yelling at me over the phone!)Oh, and it's Tuesday because she has to work Monday. But I can do it Monday after 6pm when she gets home...yea right.I can only be so nice and explain so much to these people... I agree with your opinion of what "screwing them" really is.
I have been in retail for a looooong time and in my experience, a lot of people are really brave on the phone when they aren't happy, then when the face-to-face happens, they're fine, normal (for them) or whatever you want to call them. I have also had quite a bit of formal customer service training and one thing that defuses people who like to hear their own voice yelling is agreeing that there is a problem. It may be huge to one side and nothing to the other but there is still a problem. As in all conflicts, the answer and the truth is somewhere between the two sides."But I can do it Monday after 6pm when she gets home...yea right."And you know they'll want you to hook up the equipment, too. "How can you call it 'installed' if the equipment isn't in it?" Blah, effin' blah. Tell them that you made a deal with all of the audio installers- you won't install electronic equipment if they don't build cabinets.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
It's like dealing with second graders highfigh. She calls and gives me all the questions and I give all the answers. Then we end the conversation and he calls within 10 minutes (during the day, from the hospital!) And asks, "why is my wife all upset? What is the problem? Haven't you done this stuff before?"While he's on the phone with me and the wife is on the phone CRYING to the designer!You know, I've read stories like this but never thought they were true...I can't believe this isn't fiction!!
> She calls and gives me all the questions and I give all the answers. Then we end the conversation and he calls within 10 minutes (during the day, from the hospital!) And asks, "why is my wife all upset?Hmmm...it sure sounds like they're high maintenance, but there are two sides to every story and I think we might be missing some of theirs. You answer all her questions but she winds up upset. Could be they've been playing this song for years, but could it also be that you're not handling the customer as well as you could?No offense, just something worth considering.Pete
Edited 9/11/2006 9:19 pm ET by PeteBradley
No offense taken. The core of the frustration appears to be that they ordered a similar unit from a modular production company that uses Melamine and laminate and junk to make these units. They waited three months only to find out it'd be two more months maybe before they got their unit. During that time, the designer suggested I build it for them, only better and faster. Now, it appears they add my month on to the three previous months and in their minds they've been waiting four months for me!This does not make their attitude toward me or the designer acceptable IMO. The designer has been beat up many times the last few weeks for other stuff that was out of her control (damaged chairs, painter took ONE too many days painting the room)I was very nice and tried educating them in my work when they first started crying. I explained how there is just two of us, not a big factory. How every piece is cut by hand just for their job. How the finish is very high quality and specific to match their existing piece of furniture which they gave me the door to use as reference. He even asked me, "couldn't you take the door to Home Depot and have them scan it and make a stain to match?" When I explained to him why it doesn't work that way, he asked if I'd at least tried?
All right, I slogged thru all 110 posts, and Frenchy gets it right. The one thing he missed is the reason she is so difficult. The clue was, wife gets upset and 10 minutes later you get a call from husband. Husband is very dedicated, successfull, hard working, yada, yada, yada. Wife is left on the sidelines, feels insignificant, ignored. The only way she has "power" or attention from husband is creating the "crisis" and then calling hubby and demanding he do something. Can you imagine interupting a surgeon at a teaching hospital for rather insignicant problems. My wife doesn't interupt me for anything less then a real emergency and believe me, I ain't all that important. I would bet the wife makes a habit of "crisis if the day" just to get attention from husband. Just my 2 cents.
PS, Best advice Frenchy gave you was the shut up part. He who talks first loses. If you gotta say something, say "Oh?"
John
I'm wondering whether the designer didn't put you on the spot a bit. Sounds like she was trying to placate them when she first suggested you to solve a problem. Something like, "I'm sure he will be able to do this for you, and I know you'll love his work, he's always been on time in other projects, etc".One thing I did learn about contracts: writing things down means reducing to ink and figures good wishes and unrealistic expectations. The better defined and drawn up, the less chance for misunderstanding later. Putting in an expected completion date, payment schedule, contingencies takes away much of the whining and arguing later on.I usually negotiate to have any significant job paid in stages. For a general contractor on house construction, I usually negotiate to pay in stages, with 90% due on completion. The remaining 10% is due in 5 business days. The GC can pay off all his guys and subs from the 90% payment. Most GCs get about 20% for managing the job, so he's paid half his profit when he finishes the job. The 5 days lets me do a few walk throughs, looking for problems, particularly on a weekend when I have time to be thorough. If everything checks out, I pay the GC the remaining 10%- by local check, cahier's check or cash- whatever he wants. If there is a problem (like a missing inspection, or something not done right), it is very motivating to the GC to know that 45 minutes of work is all that stands between him and $$$ in his pocket. I think if you get a customer who is very demanding and difficult from the get go, you should set up to be paid in stages. There are different ways to structure it, but if you had 75% of a $5,000 job in your pocket, the customer would have as much reason as you to want to complete the transaction. If you had $3,500 of a $5,000 piece paid for, you'd be in a much stronger position to deal with an unreasonable client. If they came to the shop and saw the finished piece sitting there ready for delivery, they'd find a way to settle the differences and take delivery.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Hi Glaucon ,
I have found part of what you say to be very true indeed .
When someone owes you a small amount of money you are in charge , when someone owes you a large amount of money then they are in charge .
Same is true in the scenario you have offered up , when we have been paid as you said say 75% and still have possesion of the goods , we are truly in the drivers seat . And can easily maintain controllability of the job .
Same is true in reverse , once the contractor has been paid in full before completion , there is often little motivation to complete the job .
A very important lesson in life :
Really imo it all boils down to not so much of what you are doing but , Who you are doing it with that counts . Lets face it , a contract is only as good the people that have signed it .
regards dusty
"When someone owes you a small amount of money you are in charge, when someone owes you a large amount of money then they are in charge ."
Maybe, LOL, but this man <click> went against the grain then. He owed a friend of mine $30,000 for one thing and $30 for something else. Paid the $30,000, but never did the $30. As you can see, it's a good thing (for the friend) as Kevin's got awhile to go before getting out of prison. That "$91 million in restitution"?? Fat chance.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The problem with people who have things made just for them is that they are often too self-important. I would probably tell them that getting it done sooner would mean you would have to rush, and that you don't want it to turn out any way other than great. You're making it for them, it's not a floor model.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Mumda,
Interesting story thanks for sharing. I only have one question..if the contract had been signed and a fifty percent deposit received on the 16th of Aug...would you have had sufficient time to build the doors and deliver the piece by the 30th.? It would appear you underestimated the time element by 5 or so days...not accusing, just asking...and what are the implications for the important relationship with the interior decorator?
That's an excellent point and it is my mistake for wording the contract that way. I have since reworded the contract to say XX calendar days from date of deposit receipt. Or, as others have mentioned, I should not use a fixed lead time at all.The reason it took so long to get to me was because the designer was faxed my contract and brought it to the clients and had it signed and received the check for me. The designer didn't mail the contract or check to me until Saturday the 5th.The designer thinks this couple is crazy. She and I have a great working relationship that spans 2 dozen jobs. She didn't like working with this woman anyhow since she's been screaming about other stuff recently. However, these people owe her about $1K in consultation fees and she's already invoiced them once this week. Now she (like I) wonder if she'll get paid.
Edited 9/8/2006 9:18 pm ET by Mumda
I think one of the most critical parts of this is maintaining your future business. Revenge is a dish best eaten cold as the Godfather was wont to say. Let it go as a learning experience after you collect the money upon delivery.
I would focus more on doing something for the design consultant as a good will gesture. She is the one you need to keep happy. Make sure she understands the issues from your side without whining and buy her a box of candy or a nice dinner in appreciation for the work. It is still a lot of money for you, even with the grief.
The only revenge I plan is not installing the TV. I normally do that as a favor since it's such a PITA to do after all is assembled. Nothing in my contract says I am responsible for installing that stuff.I will take care of the designer. She will get a little extra $$ in her commission and a box of chocolates is a great idea, thanks.
If they owe the consultant 1k, there is a chance that they are having money problems and just want an out. Being a doc does not make one a good money manager. The bigger the house, the more likely they are having problems.
Steve
Something Ilearned years ago is that when you charge what the job is really worth you get excellent customers and fewer complaints than when you charge less. People who are rich think differently than most and tell their friends what they paid as if to say it is great because it is expensive and worth a lot. If it is a cheap price then it is not worth much to them. The idea being that diamonds are expensive and rocks are cheap.
Wow, New to the site here... Nice story. I deal with this every day as I contract 3 party dealings with insurance companies, homeowners and the restoration company I work for. From what I read in your initial piece she signed a waiver to the doors being finished, "pending lead time" As far as I can see. Your clear as a bell. As for the trades people involved, we have all come across a crying child only to be comforted by it's binky. They will settle down upon having the piece in the house. Remember to stand confident, it is what it is, and definitely get the money before unloading it. Also its a good idea to have her sign a delivery slip. Later they can't deny receiving the piece.
Chances are she didnt fire the designer because of you. It may very well to do with money. I find that when people bolt out in the end there tring to " recoup moneys spent" its like buyers remorse. Its all fun to shop until your standing at the cash register thinking.." WOW that added up fast" Anyway good luck and spending time with the kids will ALWAYS be the right answer.
"They will settle down upon having the piece in the house."That's my hope. Thanks for the advice and encouragement.
So I didn't charge enough? I grossed $70/hour which is $5/hour more than my usual shop rate.
You are the only person who can answer that. On furniture I figure the materials at 7-10% of the project and for cabinets 17-20% depending on the demand and complexity of the job. If their attitude stinks I have been known to tell them to get someone else.
Good to hear I did alright since materials was less than 10%.Unfortunately, their attitude didn't stink at all until last week!
Could it be possible that they are mad at each other and it has nothing to do with you? Some people like bossing others around. It gives them a feeling of control and power. I have seen people who just don't trust anyone.Years ago when I was a student and worked at a lumber yard a customer came in and complained to a fellow worker that he cut a piece of material 1/32" too long. A few hours later the same man was in the same store I was in and complained to the lady who owned the store and tried to get a discount on a product there. I found him to be a chronic complainer.Often I have noticed that one person.Years ago I was quite upset at a costomer and a man told me "Remember you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." I cooled off and he was right. The same man I was upset at gave me a lot more work with himself and his relatives over the next several years. He actually became a nice person to work for.
Interesting thread. A couple of things:1. I am a doctor, and I have worked 7 days, > 100 hrs a week. I never thought it gave me the right to treat others disrepectfully, and (most) of my colleagues are of a similar mind. I always found people who worked hard and delivered were worth being appreciated. 2. An example: a few years ago I needed some tree work done and contacted a guy I had used before. Long story short he didn't get to me until several weeks had gone by, when I was away on vacation. One night, I was checking my home messages and there was one from him saying he'd done the work, and could I cut him a check as he wanted to take his wife and kids to Disneyworld on vacation. Well, he was late getting to me, and I could have dealt with him by writing a check when I got back, but he was a decent guy, so I wrote him a check and oernighted it to him. Ever since, ANYTIME I've needed his help, even on short notice, he has been there in a flash. A few weeks ago, he came out the day after a storm to clean up some fallen limbs. I thanked him for helping me out on short notice, and he said, "Doc, I haven't forgotten how you helped me out when I was trying to get my kids to Disneyworld". What I had done cost me only a trip to the post office and an overnight carrier fee, but the goodwill lives on. The flip side is, there are some people (customers AND contractors) who will never understand this. They are best avoided, as you will only come away with a bad taste in your mouth. 3. As for delivery dates, I believe in them. The #1 issue between contractors/craftsmen and customers is timeliness. Some customers are unreasonable, and some contractors jerk people around with no end in sight. Everyone (myself included) works better on a deadline. What I would favor is that you specify the number of days for completion once a deposit is received by you, and subject to reasonable contingencies. This promotes communication and responsibility on both sides. If the piece is a week late because a finish takes longer to cure or the hardware is on back order, most reasonable people won't kick, it's the 6 months of deay with no end in sight (see Laguna threads) that drive people crazy.4. I wouldn't worry too much about her bad mouthing you. She probably is known far and wide as a crank, and even her friends will take her bitching with a grain of salt. Stay on the high road, but don't do anything extra (installation). You will feed the beast, she can't be pleased, all you can do is give her a reason for additional unhappiness. You owe her the piece delivered, full stop.GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 9/10/2006 10:54 am ET by Glaucon
Thanks for taking the time out of your busy life to tell me all of that Dr.!1) Please note that I nor anyone here is stereo-typing Doctors. In fact, I have done work for many a physician, and this is a first for me. I'm shocked that he is a surgeon at a major University Hospital and has the time to receive his wife's calls and call me during the day to deal with this.2) Great story, and I'd most likely do the same in your position.3) The contract is fixed to show calendar days instead of actual dates, just as you and others have suggested.4) Not worried at all. I have many reference letters that would blow her comments out of the water.Thanks again.
No offense taken. There are plenty of doctors (surgeons especially) that I find obnoxious. Also lawyers, politicians, criminals (but I repeat myself...)Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
It's very interesting to find that even Doctors are humans also and have all the differing personalities as any other profession may have.My uncle is a scientist living near Campridge and he has a double Ph.D. Nicest guy in the world, very down to earth, mows his own lawn and drinks a beer doing it. Rarely even tells people about himself. Aunt is cool also.I used to be an engineer working for an aerospace company before I started all of this. I knew extremely obnoxious engineers. Some had Ph.D.'s even. I also knew engineers that were dumber than a box of rocks, and I'm talking the really dumb kind of rocks!
Mumda,
I've had a similar experience recently. My investment fortunately was small enough that I could deliver the work, apologise, tear up the bill and walk away.
If you need the money, deliver the thing, apologise, offer a discount on a future order (you might be too busy to consult with them, if they take you up on it) and walk away.
If you can eat it, and your pride demands it, refund the money with regrets that you were unable to do the work to their satisfaction.
I'd keep in mind that they can probably steer a lot of business away from you if you really antagonize them. Maybe that doesn't matter in your case- I'm in a community with a limited clientele. Chopping the thing to bits on their driveway and leaving it there does have a certain appeal.
Good luck,
Ray
"I'd keep in mind that they can probably steer a lot of business away from you if you really antagonize them. "I have thought of that and I won't do anything inappropriate to make it worse. I just like to day dream about great what would be fun to do.
in almost every case in life the high road is the best way to go. you're a young man and it's good to learn that early on. i have taken all roads, but the high road works in most cases. save your anger, if you still have it, for your own private time. i personally might also consider refunding the deposit, apologize to them for any misunderstanding, and keep that piece as an example of your work for future clients.
good luck
greg
"i personally might also consider refunding the deposit, apologize to them for any misunderstanding, and keep that piece as an example of your work for future clients."Good idea, except it's very big and I have no room. Also, I would not only be passing on the $2,800 they owe me but I'd have to pay back another $2,800 for a total or $5,600 loss.
Mumda ,
If it was me I would have the clients come and inspect the job at your location , if they approve of the job , I would then ask them to cut you the final payment . Go to the bank on Monday make sure the check clears then deliver the piece on Tuesday as agreed .
If they are not happy with the job , no sense in delivering it !
At least you would still have a captive audience and have something they want .
try to not enter into any ugly conversations , remain professional and if need be refer back to the contract clause " approximation date "
they would have absolutely no leg to stand on in a court of law !
don't give them any more reason to be unhappy .
good luck dusty
Thanks dusty. I give all clients the option to inspect before delivery and they declined since it's almost an hour away. I almost want to force them to come over now..."try to not enter into any ugly conversations" a little late for that...but they started it!"don't give them any more reason to be unhappy" I'm getting the feeling they are never happy. I want to make people happy, that's a reason why I do this business. It saddens me that I'm some how saddening someone else with one of my projects.
Edited 9/8/2006 9:09 pm ET by Mumda
Please demand they come inspect and pay before delivery , it is your only chance to not get burned , been there done that . Once that piece is delivered and leaves your hand , they can ask you to leave the property and by law you would have to leave with or without being paid .
avoid litigation handle it yourself
luck to you dusty
I have a problem with that idea now; my shop is located on my property. I'm not feeling good about giving them my home address.I have a plan in place if payment is refused: I can unclip all the hinges in less than 8 seconds and carry all 4 doors with me. It'd cost them maybe more to have new doors made and finished to match than what they owe me. I suspect they'd be sending a check after a few days of looking at it with no doors.
Very beautiful looking wall unit . You deserve to get paid , remain professional .
regards dusty
Thanks, that's actually the computer rendering. The real one is still in the shop but looks just like it except darker. I'll get a few pics while it's in the shop since I may not have a chance to get pics after delivery.
Mum,
If that's a picture of what you built for those people for $5600, then they are crazy! I'll take 6 of them delivered to Mississippi and I'll get $10,500 each on a bad day. The only person getting screwed is you - that's outstanding work for way too little cash. Exceptional design and execution - keep up the good work!
Lee
Thanks maple. That picture is actually a rendering from the computer showing what the final product will look like. I'll take pics of the actual job soon.$5600 for a job that has $547 in materials (used Birch ply) and only 64 hours labor (delivery will add 3 more) is considered a good job around here!!
You seem to have covered yourself fairly well on paper. I have a clause in my contract that says that no work will be started until I have recieved my deposit and any estimated completion times start when that check has cleared. I also try to work out my payout schedule so that I am owed 5 or 10% of the total price by the end of the job so if I need to walk ( has only happened once) I am not out a crippling amount of money. I am a trim carpenter so I usually have more components to a job to spread the payments out with but I am sur their are ways that you can do the same. In addition to the change you have already made in you contract you might also want to add a clause that would allow you to break the contract for situations where clients go off the deep end as yours seem to have and outline who owes who what in these situations. A short conversation with a lawyer to iron out the language might be worth the money just to cover yourself.
Handle the install professionally. No name calling and avoid conflict if possible. Give them no ammunition if legal action becomes a part of this. Install to your standards and give them no reason to use quality as a reason to withhold payment no matter how bad you want out of their.
As others have said holding back on a part of the install until payment has been recieved isn't a bad option. Make sure it is not something that they can do themselves or hire a handyman to do or you'll end up out the final payment. I also would not set up their television. Too much risk for yourself particularlly with clients that are looking to create problems. Refer them to an AV specialist who deals with nothing but. Both you and the interior designer have the right to place leins against their property if you have fulfilled your obligations and still have not been paid. Inquire with the local city hall as to how this is done. Use this and the threat of as a last resort. If they do cut you a check on the spot cash it immediately and then deposit money into your account.
The picture of the unit is beautiful. Nice work. It's sad to see a craftsman who can put out such a product being jerked around by crazies. I am sorry this is happening. It isn't a reflection on your work. Running your own business is more exhausting than actually doing the work and is made more difficult by customers like the ones you are dealing with.
One thing I would add to immediately cashing their check and is something you probably already know- cash it at their bank.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
As far as cashing the check at their bank goes , some times checks made out to a business name must be deposited and cannot be cashed ! So your advice may not work if the check is not made out to his name , but an assumed business name .
dusty
Edited 9/9/2006 11:36 am ET by oldusty
Yeah, it really depends on the bank and what they require for identification. If he carries his business license or some other valid company ID, they may do it, though.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hi Justin ,
While I agree with most of what you have stated , I strongly disagree with holding back on part of the installation or taking the doors as others have suggested
At that point the client could claim they did not pay the balance because the job was not completed and rightfully so .
That would weaken the makers position don't you think ?
Removing items from the clients property , paid for or not is risky behavior at best .
dusty
"At that point the client could claim they did not pay the balance because the job was not completed and rightfully so."Interesting...
"Handle the install professionally. No name calling and avoid conflict if possible. Give them no ammunition if legal action becomes a part of this. Install to your standards and give them no reason to use quality as a reason to withhold payment no matter how bad you want out of their."That is my intention.
Don't play there game, deliver the job hopefully when they see the finish piece, they will change there attitude and everything will work out fine. If you have to go to court to collect your money you want to be able to show the judge you did everything you could to complete the project and delivered with proper set up in good working condition. that you fulfilled your part of the contract and the delay was out of your control, and you did the doors inhouse to meet the contract as close to estimated date as possible.
I don't agree. I am owed $2800 and it would cost me just about that much in lost time and aggravation to go to court over this. Yes, I might finally get it after ?? years and fights, but I'd get immediate satisfaction walking with the doors which makes the piece how grand it is.Besides, I can easily turn those doors into another piece for sale elsewhere and quickly make $2800.
In all my years of building I have never put a completion date on any contract. If they insisted, I told them they needed to get someone else. I never lacked for work. I was always there with my crew and worked hard. People hired me because of the quality I delivered.
I agree with you about losing the dates on the contract. The quality is excellent on this project as that was a main priority, before delivery date.Thanks
I think you should demand cash (in a nice, respectful way) BEFORE the piece leaves your truck. Why not have them inspect it while on your truck and pay you before you move it into their house. Once it's in the house your leverage goes way down.
The high road is the best way to go. I'm a professional musician and sometimes have to explain why I charge what I do. I explain that I'm a professional and I have a family to support. The days of playing for fun in a garage are gone. You could explain that you would never screw them and the contract bears this out clearly with the clause that explains you would make every effort to get the piece finished by the delivery date. You could site multiple other clients who you have a fantastic continueing relationship with and how you hope they too will use you again. To that end maybe you could offer them a discount on the next piece. You may have to educate them a bit about how long it takes a finish to cure properly, etc. Some people live to complain and others need their hands held. That's not to say you should kiss butt. Try to be fair and stick to your guns about being paid. Give them advance warning that you want cash. If they cannot get to the bank by Tuesday offer to wait until it's convenient. That should be a hoot. Good luck.
BBP
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Good thoughts. I'm nervous about the cash idea only since I feel that may put them over the edge. I do plan to go straight to THEIR bank and cash the check before there's a chance for them to put a stop on it.But I do like to real cash idea. I just wonder if I have the balls to request it...
Hi Mumda
You do beautiful work. One look at the finished product should silence most people!
Unfortunately, I think that you are dealing with a rather egocentric individual, one who will not see your side. I think you have two options.
If you want to be bloody minded, then all you have to do is state that the finish has not completed its curing process, and delivery can only take place on Tuesday (as you discussed). This is not what I think you should do.
It is very likely that this lady has a reputation for being excessively demanding, but she is still in a position to do damage to your name, so do not give her more ammunition. Her time is important to her so she will resist giving it up. You may be able to negotiate a compromise (for example, at the end of a work day) but this will be hard going.
Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it. Take the high road in your dealings with her.
Deliver on the Sunday. Let her know that this will occur, and take this opportunity to remind her that full and final payment is due at this time. Do not offer a discount. If (I should say when) she complains about the whole transaction, just state that she will love the piece, that you have done a fabulous job (-you have!), and that you made every effort to overcome the difficulties associated with the doors in your own time. Each time she says something negative, just repeat this like a broken record. She probably wants a discount and will feel entitled to one if you admit that you have done less than you promised you would do. So do not provide this opening. On arrival, ask whether she has payment ready before any goods are moved from your vehicle to their home. You have agreed to install the unit so you have to go through with this. So install it all. Then ask for the payment (which she stated she has ready for you). Situation #1: take the money she gives you, smile sweetly, and go. Situation #2: if she now reneges on payment, take the doors (as you planned to do) and go (you then know that she has no intention of completing payment). The goods do not belong to her until she has paid for them.
Sometimes you come across people who are unreasonable and they leave a bad taste in your mouth. Fortunately, most are not like this. Most are reasonable and appreciate your time and effort.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks, I agree about everything except delivery on Sunday. As I explained to them, my children's happiness is more important to me than their happiness. We are going to the zoo Sunday. That is final.Monday night is another soccer game. Again, more important than their happiness.I do not consider that "bloody "minded", I consider it reasonable priority minded.I NEVER offer a discount. I will always offer to fix something on my own time, but NEVER a discount.
I sell for a living and deal with a lot of jerk mechanical contractors who bitch about EVERYTHING, the best revenge is cashing the commission check! No mater what, if you are in a competitive market, the customer is always right. Maloof is the exception, but that is art.
Mumda,
Read your post and the replies, interesting.
My advice is simple, to succeed in this business, you need to be three things. A craftsman, a businessman and most important a salesman.
The craftsman part you have mastered well, the business part means no emotions, just try and get the job done and get you money, the salesman part means keep smiling, be friendly, the customer is always right and make the best of it.
Willie
Problem is, the customer is not always right. It's just a matter of dealing with their warped idea of how things were, are and should be in a way that they won't be insulted by or that will make them mad.I worked in a stereo store and when someone would come in yelling about what a POS their cassette deck or ? was, a couple of us would let them vent for a minute or two and while this was happening, we would be getting the paperwork started. When they would pause to catch their breath, we would look up and quietly ask, "Name?" They usually would say, "Oh, uh, yeah, uh, John Q Public". Let them vent and when they see the piece, they should be OK.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Mumda,
I think you have received a lot of good advice here, I skimmed all the posts.
A couple of things:
The damage was done when your designer failed to get the contract to you in a timely fashion. She should have paid more attention to ascertaining the time you needed to do the job including ordering the custom doors. Not to mention getting your copy of the contract to you in time. Nobody starts a custom project without a contract/deposit unless the client is well known. Every client I have ever had has offered to give me a deposit whether I asked for it or not.
The second problem, as you have been advised, is the insertion of a completion date.
I would suggest in the future to ask 1/3 on contract, 1/3 on completion of the woodwork and 1/3 on delivery.
I would also suggest that, as I do, you hand the client the bill for the balance of the payment the moment you arrive and say: "Perhaps you would be so kind as to write the check while we unload the piece."
That will be your first opportunity to see if there is going to be a problem. You may decide not to unload the piece.
You should also type a statement on the final bill something like this: "Mumda retains title to this ___________ unless and until the balance is paid in full." And include a signature line for the signature of the person receiving the delivery; and have them sign for the piece before you take it off the truck. Again, if you're going to have a problem it should be apparent at this point.
On the other hand in most jurisdictions there is a law against "larceny after trust." You trusted her that you would be paid, made and delivered the piece, she accepted the piece and by here acceptance she agreed to fulfill her obligation, as you did yours. She refuses to pay and, I believe in this case because of the amount of money involved, it very well could be a felony. And I would file a complaint with the police department on that basis first, explaining to the officer the 'larceny after trust' factor so the cops don't chase you off in search of an attorney as if it were a civil matter. The above documentation will assist you in that matter.
It has been my experience after about 40 years in business (in Miami, and I've known hundreds of people just like the one you describe and they don't give a *&%# about you or anybody else that works for a living )that if your client is aware that you consider this matter a legal matter the client will as well.
In any event I hope it works out for you and be assured of this: If this &%#*@#$ is like this with you everybody that knows her knows the way she is. And anybody who sees the piece will discard any slander from the broad in favor of the quality of your piece.
John (not a lawyer)
Good stuff. Thank you much.
Just wondering have you installed yet? Or have things changed? Just curious. Good Luck. Rickkk
It's scheduled for this coming Tuesday morning. I'll keep everyone informed.
I don't sell my woodwork, but I meet clients like this at my ''real'' job.
Here is how I deal with them:
Make them happy. Do whatever you will accept to do to make them feel important. Swallow your anger and smile. Yes ma'am, I appreciate your business, I'm sorry for the delay, ... I found that people like this often seem to be way worst on the phone than when you meet them face to face. Plus, it is harder to yell at a nice mad. Of course, make shure you're getting paid right away.
This will most often lead them to respect/like you and your work. Plus, their friends know you are VERY good if they liked you. They will often ask you to do some more business in the future. THEN, charge twice, perhaps 3 times what you consider it is worth. They now like you, so they might say yes (I've been shoked several times!). If they say no, good for you. If they say yes, good for you too!
By then they often become regular or freindly custommers. Charge them a bit more for the next orders until they become a very good client. Then, treat them as every other custommer.
I have three good friends who first were bad clients. Even I can hardly believe it!
Of course, this is only my way of doing things. Good luck.
Fred.
"Swallow your anger and smile. Yes ma'am, I appreciate your business, I'm sorry for the delay, ..."That is my plan. Thanks Fred.
mumda, after amany painfull learning experiences i have a simlple way of judging people and its "the most intelligent people are polite." Nothing turns me off more than ostentatious,pompous or arrogant behavior. In my experience it always hides character flaws. -bufun
Mumda,
Boy are you all missing the point!
When she went into a tirade about a late delivery date what issue was she really venting about?
a couple of days?
I sincerly doubt it..
Most likely you were at the wrong end of a tough day..
She attacked you and you were just trying to be reasonable..
Now here's how to correct the matter.
Ask her if there was something more than simply the couple of days. Put it like, "You certainly seemed upset when I informed you about the time it takes me to build what you want. Remember the curved doors would have taken an extra 6 1/2 weeks had I ordered them so I'm actually 6 1/2 weeks ahead of schedule.
Is there something else that you'd like to share?"
Now comes the really hard part.. shut up! ... don't say a word. it may take a minute, it may take several minutes. The first one to speak will lose.. When she does speak, listen carefully. When she's fiinished, carefully repeat back to her what you heard,
"so you're saying,.... " Listen while she corrects anything and then repeat it back again to her as accuritaly as possible..
If you do that you will make a friend and solve the real issue. The designer will be off the hook (unless she's the issue) and you will get referals well worth your time.
I've just told you one of my secrets in selling.. Not well known but it never fails..
If you don't do it I promise you that you will regret it.. If you do do it it will give you powers you can't believe..
Only use them for good purposes ;-)
Hmmmm...at first after I read your advice I was going to tell you to pack sand like her. Now, I'm thinking I'll give that a shot since I really have nothing to lose being that I expect no future contact from these people anyhow (except when they call to cry to me about not being able to install their TV.)Thanks frenchy.
Mumda,
you're welcome.. let me know the results will you? (by the way this assumes that she isn't a controll freak or some kinda wacko, in which case you won't be worse off, you'll simply waste your time)
Using a little psycology here, if she's married to a surgeon they tend to have a God complex (Holding human life in your hands tends to provide that feeling) Doubtless she's recieved more than her share of that complex, your question should cause her to focus on the reality which she may have lost site of..
mumda,
You could tell her this joke to lighten the tension:
A lawyer dies and goes to heaven. St. Peter is flabbergasted, but gives the guy the standard first morning orientation. Come lunchtime, they go to lunch in the Heaven cafeteria.
The line is very long and the lawyer tries to sneak in near the front. St. Peter takes him by the arm to the back of the line, gently explaining that while he may have gotten away with such behavior on Earth, in Heaven everyone is equal and he will have to wait his turn in line.
A few minutes later a tall man in a white coat, stethoscope dangling from his neck goes directly to the front of the line, gets his tray, selects his lunch and checks out at the register.
The lawyer grabs St. Peter and shouts, "Hey, look! How come that doctor gets to go to the front of the line while we all have to wait!!????"
St. Peter looks in the direction the lawyer is pointing and sees the guy with the stethoscope. "Oh!," he says, "Him!?"
"He's no doctor. That's GOD! Sometimes he just thinks he a doctor!"
Or maybe you shouldn't.
Ya had to go and bring religion into it...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I haven't read all the responses thus far, but I think it best to bite bullet on this one. Just continue your good work, and install it, get the check, and leave. If for no other reason than to preserve your reputation.
I don't know if you've met the woman early on, or if the interior designer was the go-between(something I avoid), but bad folks like these make my Spidey sense tingle- I always walk. It's been either couples having major problems, or people with too much money and no common sense.
With this kind of client, no amount of money will buy mine, or their, peace of mind.
Mumda,
Great thread here and a lot about human nature. In my past lives some of the toughest people I've had to deal with were the "Mrs. Doctrors". They can be a self centered, pampered bunch.
Take the high road. Maintain your professionalism and pride.
If, deep down you are still concerned about the payoff you can get a feel for the outcome the minute you start to deliver the piece(s). Call in advance and ask for the final payment to be ready when delivery occurs. Let her (them) inspect the item as much as is practical while it is still on the truck. Bring the piece into the home.
MINUS THE DOORS! You said that was one of the major problems to begin with.
As you are setting the piece in place casually mention that while M'Lady gets your payment together you'll just step out to the truck to get the doors. If she balks at that or says anything that sounds wrong to you at that point just leave the doors in your truck. That way you are not removing anything from their home or property. When you come back in with one door all SAFELY WRAPPED and see that she has your payment ready you are good to go. If not, take them home with you and tell her you'll be in touch in a couple days. Chances are that after looking at a partially completed piece in the middle of her home for a day or so she will be calling you to make nice and finish up.
Not matter what she says, keep smiling and deal with her husband as much as possible.
Please let us know the outcome.
bum...two wrongs don't make a right, but... three lefts do... :)
Thats an old salemans saying along with the feel, found, felt speech I learned years ago when I worked Sears.
But you hit the nail on the head with this one and I appauld you for it.My main question is "What is she going to be like further down the line, say, a month or so?" In short terms, if she's a bi$%h now, what does the future hold?
The installation is complete. The check is at my bank. I tried cashing it at hers, and it didn't work, even though I had proof of my business name being me personally. They say "nope".Anyhow, as many suggested she was so "wowed" by the finished project that she seemed to have forgotten the horror of last week. I did the right thing and was very kind and courteous. We were in and out in two hours and she was smiling when I left and mentioned something about a bed for her to be made in the spring. I smiled and told her give me a call when she's ready. I thought to myself that bed will be at least $5,000 if I make it...So, I'll see in two business days when the check goes through if I got screwed or not.Here's a few really bad pics of the final job. She says she'll send me good ones when her TV is installed and the shelves are filled. I hope they're better quality pics than what I have now!
Congratulations. Great looking job, and glad your customer is happy. Some jobs are just tougher than others.
I've been following this, from a respectful distance, LOL. It's nice to know it has come to a successful conclusion.
Nice work.
I'm with EdHarrow. This thread was starting to make me think twice about my ambitions to get into the business after I retire from the military.
I'm glad everything worked out, and that so much good advice was given here - along with some comic relief. I love this place!
99% of customers are a delight to work with. The other 1%, well sometimes you just have to to either play the hand you're dealt, or fold (i.e., fire the customer). Every once in a while I get a customer that I won't do business with again, or even a first time, if I smell it early enough.Reminds me of a story: A friend of mine had a co-worker that wanted some hardwood floor work done. He was an engineer and had all sorts of specificiations, this material, that material, that process, etc. He got bids from three places and one was significantly higher, nearly twice, than the other two, but that place had a good reputation. The homeowner called back the high bidder and asked why it was so much out of line with the ohter bids. He said, "Well, I knew from talking to you that you had very specific requirements and would generally be a pain-in-the-a$$ (exact words), so I had to bid in for those contingencies to get it to your satisfaction." The engineer thanked him for his frankness and hired him.
It is impossible to overstate the importance of being able to take a job or leave a job.
He priced what he thought he needed and if he didn't get the work he knew the mortgage would still get paid and the lights wouldn't be turned off.
People who get their feelings hurt when they lose a job will never make it. Never.
Edited 9/13/2006 11:09 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Very good point. There is no job that you must have.Here is a link to a good article. http://www.iswonline.com/wwp/200606/manage_5measures.cfm
I have adapted my business on these principles. If a potential client violates my code of integrity or wants to create a win-lose proposition (non profitable), or is disrespectful of me (my only employee), they are not a client.
Very nice article, thank you. I am thinking of consolidating that into a small list of rules perhaps to be given to prospective clients!
"It is impossible to overstate the importance of being able to take a job or leave a job. People who get their feelings hurt when they lose a job will never make it. Never."
That is so true, especially in a "small" business (anything less than a multi-national conglomerate, I guess).
I used to own a printing business. we were fairly well diversified, and did OK. I had a friend in California, whose business I thought I should try to emulate. She captured the national Century 21 Real Estate contract and did ALL their corporate printing. Over about 10 years she built a huge shop, with gorgeous equipment based on that VERY lucrative contract (tens of $millions per year). It seemed like a wonderful situation to have such a client. Eventually, her company devoted more than 85% of its resources to Century 21. It was just not cost effective to try to take care of any other customers. She shut the business to "walk-ins."
Then overnight, Century 21 went with a different printer. She expected them to sign their usual contract only to be told they would no longer be using her. Somehow, she got them back. I don't know how, or what transpired at all the emergency meetings. I remember she had to be hospitalized for depression during that time. She faced the complete loss of her business (and everything she owned).
While that was happening, I met a printer in the San Fernando Valley of California (just north of Hollywood). He had built a business making himself available to the acting profession. They all got "head shots" done by professional photograhers - 8x10 B&W glossy photos which were an absolute requirement to be included with their resume whenever they went on an audition .
The initial photography session was expensive for them and included 1 print. Additional photographic prints were prohibitively expensive (they were all starving actors, but his clientlle included many famous Hollywood names, also). He offered a printing package that cost something like $125. They came in with their glossy 8x10 photograph, which he reproduced on the printing press. I think he gave them 500 prints for that $125.
It was strictly an over-the-counter operation. Walk-ins, only. Cash at the time of the order. 2 day turn-around. NO receivables EVER. He actually had a large cash register at the front counter. He had no large contracts with anyone. He simply had hundreds and hundreds of repeat customers. Dozens of orders every single day. He never extended "credit" to any one. Anyone who couldn't pay (up front) wasn't a customer.
He did a few "large" commercial jobs. Single page 8-1/2" x 11" full color "brochures" for local real estate offices for their most expensive homes up for sale.
He also was able to outfit his shop with beautiful printing equipment and his shop grew quite large, also.
He offered an excellent product at a fair price. His business was all word of mouth and he was known in Hollywood as THE place to go for his kind of product. No single large account to worry about losing, many small ones that could come or go. He did $2 Million a year (in the mid 80s) and never had a sleepless night.
Great story and a lot of good information in there.
The first thing most unsuccessful furnituremakers do is arbitrarily set an 'hourly shop rate.' This results in being too high on jobs you could have made money on and too low on jobs you could have really made money on.
Sounds a bit like a paradox, but it's not.
Show me a furnituremaker who hasn't sold the same piece to one customer for a lot of money and the very same piece to another customer for a whole lot of money and I'll show you furnituremaker looking for work on a job site.
I wake up every day with the assumption my work is worth more today than it was yesterday. I'm always looking to charge more. If I'm not losing a few due to 'being too high' then I'm not being high enough. In other words, if you get every commission you propose, you're probably going out of business. Another paradox that really isn't.
I'm not bothered one bit by charging more than somebody who could do it twice as fast and with more technical competence. They're lousy at business. I'm not.
Edited 9/13/2006 4:50 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Speaking as a former professional photographer, it sounds like your friend made his living stealing others' work. EDIT: Not the case, as a following message makes clear -- the photographer supplied a print specifically for the client to get reproduced by other means. The rest of what I wrote only applies in the case where, for example, a photo studio sells pricey prints and someone dodges the cost by having cheap copies made, contrary to their agreement with the studio.
Look at it from the photographer's point of view. He will charge a smallish sitting fee (so if no prints are bought, he doesn't get completely skunked) and provide only a single print; the theory is that satisfied customers will buy many copies, and there may even be a commercial market if a picture is quite good. It's hard to make a living if only a single print per sitting is sold. The alternative is to work for hire, selling the copyright to the images to the customer, but those sessions must be priced much higher because there is no possibility for it to result in more revenue.
When print shops knowingly reproduce copyrighted photographs, they're party to theft. EDIT: Unless a license to reproduce was granted, as in the present case.
My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Edited 9/13/2006 9:05 pm by John_D
John,
I hope you noticed I said I owned a printing company. I am also a photographer. I was, and am acutely aware of copyright laws. I have given seminars about intellectual property rights.
The photography I described was done expressly for the purpose of halftone reproduction on press. The photographer was part of the system. No one was getting ripped off. Quite the opposite. The total arrangement was known and approved from the get go. The photographer was a vital and contributing front end of the chain of events. It was a well-established process in the acting trade.
Supplying actors with upwards of 500 photographic prints was not only prohibitively expensive for the customer, but for the photographer as well. It couldn't be done. And it wasn't until the solution of printing the headshots on press came along that the photographer's business took off. He got very little work until it was obvious to the acting community that they had a cost effective way of getting prints. By the time an actor used up all those prints, at least a year or 2, it was time for him or her to have a "new look." So back to the photographer, etc.
That "system" was alive and well at several printing houses in Hollywood late into the 90s. I don't know what has happened in this era of digital photography, as I have lost contact with that business.
On the other hand, we occasionally had customers who brought in proofs from a photosession such as wedding photography. Those proofs were intended to allow the customer to select the shots that the photographer would make final prints of. The customer wanted us to reproduce them to avoid the entire photographer's fee. We never accepted such jobs.
The opposite side of that coin was the situation where a customer paid a photographer to produce shots that were explicitly intended to be used for reproduction in a brochure we were printing. We gave the photographer specific direction about the setup of every shot and the needs of photomechanical reproduction. There was never a shred of doubt about the intended purpose of the shots, nor about the guy's large fee for such work. The customer would pay the photographer's fee, bring the images to us, expecting to proceed with the printing job, but the photographer stamped the back with his copyright notice, forbidding reproduction. What gall!
Sounds like a pretty good system for the photog and the press, thanks for clearing that up. I know of lots of folks who hate to pay the price for extra prints at the portrait places, so they get one 8x10 then repro the heck out of it, which IS stealing. The pro print shop I used to use never let them do the repro, but the consumer places (Kit's cameras, Costco, all that) have posted policies but don't really enforce.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
"It is impossible to overstate the importance of being able to take a job or leave a job."You're absolutely right, and I've done that in the past. Had this job not been 90% done I would have done it again. In fact, I threatened to these people that I would sell it if they didn't calm down and I wasn't lying.
hammer,
The fellow who does my upholstery work told me a story about one of his customers, a lady who had been very hard to please. After going around and around with her, he finally delivered the job. He said she looked at his bill, and said to him, "I see you have the price here as you quoted me, but underneath there is another charge. I don't understand. What is that for?" "Aggravation, " was his reply.
Cheers,
Ray
Hi Ray ,
I call that extra added cost feature ( HF ) hassle factor .
It gets padded into the bid , not as a line item .
Hi Mumda,glad to hear things went well with her & the install. Later Rickkk
Congratulations! In the end, all your preparation for the worst helped us learn some great tips for future difficult customers. Being courteous, helpful, and especially being specific about how and when to be paid are very good guidelines for all of us to follow.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
I have to say this was a great thread to follow. Learned a lot!
Hey glad to hear it all worked out, nice work. Man, you aren't really thinking about building this witch a bed are you? If you do make sure to build a squeak into it, and definitely charge her an aggravation fee......LOL
-Paul
If she wants a bed it will cost at least $5,000 from me. That is my PITA (pain in the a55) fee. Some of that will be carried over from the entertainment center, some will be preemptive.Also, the lead time will be 8-52 weeks...And the finish will be natural...
Arrgghh!!! Haven't you learned anything from this? Aggravation fee? Lead time of 8-52 weeks? Natural finish? Well, okay, what's wrong with a natural finish for beautiful wood?You apparently resolved, successfully, a very difficult situation with a contentious client and now you want to start the process all over. Whether or not you continue to work with this person is beside the point. You have received a lot of advice, much of it good, some of it bad, and a little beyond absurd. (Put a squeak in the bed- yeah, that'll teach 'em)This experience should have taught you the importance of clear and specific communication with your clients, with contracts drawn up accordingly at the beginning of the project. Granted, it's difficult to forsee problems and potential delays, but the client should be informed of these possible contingencies from the onset. Hindsight's great, isn't it?If you want to succeed as a woodworker/ furniture designer, you have to remember that ultimately the customer is, indeed, right. If you enter into an agreement to build something for someone, you accept responsibility for satisfying their (and your) vision for the finished product. When you have a situation like yours, you just have to suck it up, make the best of it. (Cliches' abound in my ramblings) You did that when you delivered the piece and she was apparently very happy with it.As to one of the problems that seemed to get things started, I'm not sure why you would want to outsource the curved doors to begin with. It seems to me that they would be a major point of pride in the construction since they're difficult to build and fit properly. The rest of the construction is pretty straight forward, but the doors, well, hey, look at these. This really shows my skill as a woodworker. You won't find these at Ikea. It could be that your initial decision to have someone else make them is what she had problems with. Or maybe she's bipolar. Or maybe she's just that difficult by her nature. In any event, don't let this situation cloud your judgment with her or any other client in future negotiations. Take what you've learned from this experience and use it better prepare yourself for the next time.
I did learn; the aggravation fee is for the three sleepless nights I had because of her, and the two 12-14 hour days I spent trying to meet a deadline that didn't mean anything to anyone but her. Maybe I will call it a payback fee instead.The large lead time window is to cover any potential delay that may occur. Bottom line is that I don't want to do any work for this psycho again, but if I do, she is going to pay dearly...Bye, I'm going fishing now.
This thread reminds me of a story I was told years ago when I was doing carpentry work. A friend of the contractor, who was a very skilled mason, specialized in building fireplace chimnyes. He would build half way up and then install a piece of glass across the flue, then build the rest of the chimney. If not paid the fireplace would smoke and not clear. If paid, he would go to the roof and drop a brick down the chimney which would then work great! Seems like other professions have also developed ways to deal with difficult customers. Glad the job worked out OK, some of us old timers have been through this grief and know how upsetting it can be.
"If not paid the fireplace would smoke and not clear. If paid, he would go to the roof and drop a brick down the chimney which would then work great! Seems like other professions have also developed ways to deal with difficult customers."
I know folks at a company that runs a large industrial machine which uses a proprietary computerized control system. Aside from the fact that the original system is bug-ridden and generally troublesome, the customer is difficult and didn't like to pay (par for the course in his particular industry), so whenever the controls company sends an update or bug patch to get the machine going again, they always include some code to shut it down after a certain date. If they were paid before that date, they'd send the password to defuse the timebomb. If not, XXXX at midnight on the appointed date. Then they rush payment and get the password. Knowing the customer, they brought it on themselves, but that's one way to ensure payment for services rendered.Be seeing you...
hahahahahaha!!!
Wow; my eyes hurt from reading all this.
A few comments.
We've all had difficult clients, although it sounds like yours is the ultimate. Oh the stories I could tell......
Regardless of thoughts of revenge, legal concerns, etc., I think your best course of action is to simply deliver the piece as originally specified, suck it up, and kill them with kindness. If you demand cash or certified check or whatever, they'll probably go ballistic and that will only make things much worse. If you're concerned with their check being good, then that's an issue to take up after the fact. You can't accuse them, evenly tacitly, of being dishonest and giving you a bad check.
It sounds like one of the key points of contention is the installation of the TV, cables, etc. Even if your original contract did not call for you to install those items, it still needs to be done by someone. If the piece is put up against the wall without running the cables, their previous rantings will sound like a distant whimper compared to the torrent you'll get now. Ask them to have an installer from the store where they got the TV to be there to properly run all the cables and make sure everything is hooked up correctly. You really shouldn't be responsible for that anyway, on this or any other installation.
As far as your pricing goes, if the piece looks anything like the computer image and the craftsmanship is there, they definitely got a bargain. Value and quality have nothing to do with time spent. Plus I'm sure you've underestimated your time on projects in the past. (God knows I sure have- and still do)
You were right. It's an entertaining story and it sure drew a lot of responses. Ignoring the nasty little retaliation suggestions, a lot of good points have been made and some good advice has been offered. That's probably the best revenge.
Let us know how it turned out, and by all means post some photos of the actual piece, especially if you can get the clients to pose with it with happy smiles on their patrician faces. Good luck.
As much as I would love to see you get satisfaction here (i.e. revenge) I wouldn't do it. Remember, her husband is a surgeon... and someday you may need surgery -- you never know what he'd do. Unless, of course, you actually like having a cow's udder dangling between your legs
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