Replies

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Mar 26, 2003 03:39am | #1

   I've built curved cabinet doors, both with and without glass.   When I've done it with glass, I've always acquired the glass first.   I figure that I can make wood fit a piece of glass that isn't quite what I expect, but not vice versa.  Similarly, I make the doors first, and then make the carcass.  

   When you're looking for curved glass, the key phrase is "bent glass".   That's what glass people call it, and if you ask about "curved glass" they're baffled.   There are shops which will make forms and bend glass to your specs.  A much less-expensive approach to make your design to accomodate somebody's stock glass.  Van Dykes (http://www.vandykes.com) stocks bent glass panels.  

   To make the frames for the doors, the challenge is the curved rails.  If the doors aren't too big, it is easier to cut thick wood to shape than to make bent laminated rails.  If the doors are big, then bent laminations may be required.   I use mortise & tenon joints on the frame, with floating tenons, and cut the mortises with a plunge router.   An advantage of cutting thick wood is that you can often cut facets on the thick stock that let you cut the mortises in the rails before you cut the curves.   If you cut (or bend) the curves first, you have to make a fixture that grabs the curved rail to give you reference edges for the router while it is cutting the mortise. 

   I make router jigs to cut the curves on the rails.  For one rail, there's generally a jig for the outside face, another for the inside face, and one for the dado or rabbet or however you're going to hold the glass in the frame.   That seems like lots of jigs, but often some can be used for several rails; curved furniture often seems to involve doors which are mirror-image pairs.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/25/2003 8:42:48 PM ET by JAMIE_BUXTON

1. 
   joker | Mar 26, 2003 05:56pm | #2

   Thank you very much, This is just the type of info I was looking for. Do you find mounting the doors any more difficult than straight doors? Specifically, the stiles are going to have a bevel and so how do you go about determining and cutting the bevel to match the opening in the carcass? 

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Mar 26, 2003 06:44pm | #3

   Yes, the stiles need beveling, at least in theory.  In some doors, the bevel angle is so slight that it almost doesn't matter.  Also, the outside face of the stile needs to follow the door's curve.

   As to how to set the bevel angles on the stile, I like drawing a cross-section through the door at a rail.  (I do this on a CAD program, which makes it easy to play with different possibilities.)  I'm going to need this cross-section drawing to help make the router jigs for the rails anyhow.   Among other things, I can play with the orientation of the stile.   I generally set it so that the outside face of the stile is tangent to the door's curve in the middle of the stile.   You can also play with the carcass elements -- beveling them instead of the door.  Unless the door has a really small radius, you can make the stile with a rectangular cross-section, glue the door together, and then do the required shaping of the stile with a few strokes of a hand plane. 

   There's one more little issue I forgot to mention in my first post...  That's how to mount the bent glass.  Glass doors generally are designed to allow the glass to be replaced without destroying the frame.   Often the back of the glass opening is rabbetted, and the glass is held in with wood strips, caulk, or plastic T-moulding.   If you choose wood strips, they're not too difficult to make if the door is straight.  On a small-radius curved door, you may need to make yet another jig or two -- these ones to make the curved strip for the rails.   

   Another approach to glass mounting is to bag the idea of replaceability.  If you give up replaceability, you can mount the glass like a wood panel -- that is, in a dado.   You can glue the glass in place, just like you would a plywood panel, because it is not going to expand and contract.   I like using the panel as a structural element in the door; it becomes immensely stronger.   Acrylic caulk bonds well to glass and wood, and can be had in several colors.

1. 
   joker | Mar 26, 2003 07:10pm | #4

   Thank you again, this is alot of information for me to absorb and mull over. One more thing, if I may, I do not use CAD, so is the a more "manual" way of setting the bevel on the stile? And do you have any overall advice/recommendations to begin the learning process of this type of work, so that I am starting off on the right foot so to speak?

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Mar 26, 2003 09:17pm | #5

   A drawing program is not required.  Sketch things out with a pencil, paper, and careful thought.   (However, I do encourage you to try a drawing program.   I find mine is really useful.  I make complete drawings of every piece before I head into the shop.   You don't have to invest in big expensive things like AutoCad.   There are programs down at the $50 level that are lots easier to learn, and will do for small-shop work.  Most of them will let you download a free trial copy.  I use DeltaCad.   http://www.deltacad.com )

   As for the learning process, I'm a big fan of leaping in and trying something.  Experience is a great teacher.   Perhaps your first experiments should be with inexpensive lumber, and should only be a door, not the whole piece of furniture.

2. 
   joker | Mar 26, 2003 09:56pm | #6

   Thank you again for the advice and information. I do agree with the jumping right in, so thats the way I will go. I will start out with just a coopered panel to start and see how it turns out.

3. 
   AE | Apr 02, 2003 09:48pm | #10

   Re: curved door layout

   It is a week later, and so this may be moot, but a very good way to layout tricky curved parts is to do a full scale plan-view on a sheet of mdf. Lay out your curve(s) with a trammel, a flexed stick, or freehand; draw in all the relevant details, and use a bevel gauge to get your angles. If you're concerned about whether you need a back-bevel, transfer the door curve to a piece of masonite or cardboard (tracing and/or carbon paper can be helpful), and "open" it as the real one will open. Full scale layouts are indispensible for complicated curves or angles.

4. 
   joker | Apr 02, 2003 10:05pm | #11

   Never too late for helpful information, I was definetely going to go with a mock up. The way this all kind of got into my thinking process was that I just completed making my first wooden hand plane, which was a success. In tuning it up, I got back into planing edges on a bevel  and putting them together to  check the fit.

   As they were really "sweet" joints, I thought of doing some coopered panels, thus the questions directed to this forum. Anyway, thank you for the helpful advice.

5. 
   clampman2 | Apr 03, 2003 08:42am | #12

   Rogue,

   If you bend up your rails before planing your panel boards, you can use your rail bending form, and scrap from that form, as a great aid in gluing your panel. Bent panels are not so easy to glue up as one might think. Especially the first ones. View Image

   Good luck.

   Clampman

6. 
   DJK | Apr 03, 2003 01:44pm | #13

   Done a few curved flat panels by trial and error. Was good to learn that way. I found this thread on WoodWeb about a year ago.

   Re: Curved doors

   Mike Dugan 2/11

   I have a very upscale clientele, so making curved raised panel

   doors is something I do all the time. A few tips:

   If the radius were tighter, laminating would be the way to go, but

   with a radius that large, there won’t be too much cross grain at

   the tenons, so there is no reason the rails can’t be milled out of

   10/4 stock. If you have a CAD program, make a full size drawing

   of the rails glue them to the blanks, then using a steady hand,

   band saw the blanks.

   Once you have the blank components milled, the first thing you

   need to do is to run the pattern and groover on the stiles.

   Next you’ll need to determine the proper angle for running the

   cope on the rails. Make the blanks for the rails extra long so you

   can do a little trial and error. After each test cut, insert the rail into

   the stile and compare it to a full size drawing. Once you’ve found

   the proper angle, cope all the rails.

   You are absolutely right about not being able to use the

   grooving cutter when doing the rails. These must be done on a

   table router using a *” bit and a custom fence. Be sure to plow the

   groove using multiple passes or you’ll get chatter for sure.

   Before you do that though, run the pattern cutter by itself on the

   rails. It’s a touchy feely kind of deal because you have to keep

   the rail perfectly centered on the cutter as well as perfectly

   perpendicular to the shaper table at all times. Making multiple

   passes is expected and you’ll be able to tell by sound if you’re

   cutting wood or not. Don’t linger though, or you’ll burn the wood.

   Shaping the panel raise on the curved portions of the raised

   panel is accomplished using a similar technique. Obviously, you’ll

   be putting the cutter in upside down and running the shaper in

   reverse. Shaping the straight part of the raised panel is tougher.

   Here’s the trick. Be sure to have fence perfectly parallel with the

   table slot when you adjust the depth of the fence. Assuming your

   slot is *” wide, rip a piece of *” scrap material to the correct width

   so that when you stand it up in the groove, and lay the raised

   panel on top of it, the cutter will leave a *” tongue. If the tongue is

   too thick, the “stand” needs to be higher. If it’s too thin then be

   glad that you made the raised panel blanks a bit oversized so

   you have a second chance.

   Don’t be frustrated if the doors don’t come out as perfectly as

   you’d hoped. The more you do, the better you’ll get. There’s no

   better exercise for improving your skills as a craftsman.

   Regards,

   Mike Dugan

   Dave Koury

2. 
   clampman2 | Mar 27, 2003 07:51am | #7

   Rogue,

   I have a curved job still in progress. Like Jamie, I too believe in jumping in. Since you have done bent work you are probably familiar with unibond and west epoxies, both excellent creep resistant products.

   The question you raised regarding beveled stiles depends upon whether your bend is concave or convex. If your door is concave and forms a 90 degree inside angle, then the knob (or striker) stile will have to be back beveled greater than 45 degrees if it is a flush door. Back beveling the face frame stile in this instance will have no effect whatsoever. Concave doors, as I am sure Jamie was referring to, are an entirely different matter.

   If possible, if you are doing a relatively tight radius, it is nice to use material which has NOT been kiln dried. This is especially true if you are pushing the limits on ply thickness in projects which will be stained or finished natural. The more plys, the less springback and the easier the job. Unfortunately, the more grain and color changes as well.

   If you are doing a coopered panel door, and you have some leeway with dimensioning the piece, then you may want to start by making your door rails first, and leave yourself plenty of extra length at bendup time. This way, if your springback is greater than you anticipated, you can add some length the the door rails, maybe add some width to your stiles to keep things proportional, and still wind up with a quarter circle - or whatever you are after. The face frame bends are not so critical since they will be glued to the bottom of the piece, and to stiffbacks at the top if necessary.

   Curved work is great fun, so long as you don't go broke doing it.

   If you have any specific questions, fire away. You are at a good place.

   Good luck

   Clampman

1. 
   joker | Mar 27, 2003 08:28pm | #8

   I am familiar with Unibond 800, but not the West epoxy system. As far as the face frame stile is concerned, are you saying that no beveling is necessary if the door is concave? And if not, how about if it is convex?

   You also mentioned "face frame bends" and "stiff backs". I am not sure what you are referring to by those terms, and if you would clarify a little more the sentance the terms were used in?

1. 
   clampman2 | Mar 28, 2003 07:17am | #9

   Rogue,

   Concave door stiles have to be beveled a great deal ; convex doors do not. This is easy to see after the door is made.

   The face frame rails have to be bent to accept the door; however, since the bottom rail will be attached to the cabinet bottom (which will already be cut to the proper curve), springback of the bottom faceframe rail is not critical because it will be clamped and glued to the bottom. Similarly, the top rail can be clamped and glued to a top piece, or stiffback which (like the cabinet bottom) has been cut to the proper curve.

   I personally like west epoxy for laminating because it is very greasy and allows the plys to easily slide on one another when making the bends.

   Clampman

2. 
   clampman2 | Apr 14, 2003 09:05am | #14

   Rogue,

   Here's a plan view pic of a 1/4 circle concave door, knob stile back relief. This is what was necessary to both clear the adjacent, as yet unattached, pilaster (5/8 thick and one inch away from the face frame bead) and the face frame bead.

   View Image

   Because the face frame stiles' edges are perpendicular to each other rather than parallel, as the door closes it moves away from the faceframe. Also, a miniscule adjustment of one hinge results in a change of reveal in three planes not one like in a regular door. The pic below is that same door almost closed. The reveal is much larger (in excess of 1/8) by the time it gets inside the face frame.View Image

   So you can see that this is a hand plane job - a very slow and careful one.

   Good luck,

   Clampman