I have just completed another large media center. The unit is all Cherry that is stained a dark walnut. This is the color the client chose for this project after many stain samples. I tryed to lean them away from staining Cherry because of the beauty of the wood and because cherry is hard to stain evenly. I gave them samples done with Gel stain which they and I did not like. I informed them I could shellac the entire unit to even out the stain and help eliminate blotching.
I made a sample and they approved of this approach. I also for warned them that the endgrain would still remain darker than face grain on the raised panels, they seemed to have understood. To help out the endgrain I sanded to 320 grit.
Today they came to inspect the media center and said they are unhappy. Reason 1 is because the whole unit seems lighter in color than the sample. I told them the sample is now darker because it has been exposed to sunlight longer than the completed piece. I reminded them that the sample was mixed up in a gallon can and was used on the project and thier approved sample.
They say they are also unhappy because the endgrain on the panels is darker than face of panel. Again I reminded them that I made them aware of this ahead of time. Truth be told this is the most even endgrain I have ever seen staind this dark and in Cherry. Others who have seen this piece say it is beautifull and that these people are trying to get me to lower the price. I would rather keep this myself or sell it to someone who knows a quality piece of furniture.
My question is what rights do I have with refunding their deposit. All work was pre approved by tem to begin with. Craftsmanship ,lumber selection and hardware is all of highest quality. So I know some one else would be interested in owning this. Should I refund their money. Or should I hold them to the contract and possibly have to take them to court. If I refund their money can I hold off until this piece is sold to someone else? Any help with this matter is appreciated.
Thanks
Dale
Replies
When my gut feeling indicates "these could be difficult clients," I keep a detailed paper trail of everything we discuss. I transcribe notes of our verbal discussions, and then I e-mail them or make them part of a contract. I then ask the clients to sign-off on unusual colors and details, and their understanding of my cautions. If there is more than one client (husband & wife), it's important that all sign. Without having agreements in writing, it's their word against mine, and then I'd hope for an understanding judge (I've never been to court). If your clients don't want the entertainment center, you can discount it and write off the loss to your education. Otherwise tell them that they'll get their deposit back after you sell it to a more appreciative buyer.
I ask my clients to invest a large percentage of the project cost out front (often 50%), which causes them to invest more thought into their decisions. That investment also means they give me more of their trust, both with their money as well as in my knowledge of woodworking. If they can't trust me, then I don't want to do business with them, and I shrug them off, because we're better off without each other.
Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Edited 12/26/2002 4:43:53 PM ET by Gary
Sorry to hear that they couldn't see the quality of service and hard work you must have put into it. I don't know how much deposit you received so I will leave that one for someone much more experienced to give advice to you figure wise.
I charge 2/3's down and 1/3 upon delivery and complete installation. This figure is a little on the high side but if people are serious they will hire you. If anyone changes their mind I will only accommodate them to that price in services rendered. Belive me, some people are not good clients to work for. They will have you buying them lunch ;)
Maybe if you tint a little spray finish you can still salvage this. If its lighter in color you can tone it down and even up the finish carefully. Just an idea timber, I hate that feeling to! ..Pike..
The answer to the question of what rights you have will depend upon the terms of the contract you entered into. Hopefully you have that contract in writing and there is some provision governing the return of the deposit in the event the customer is not satisfied and some term setting forth a means for assuring that the lack of satisfaction is not a ploy.
_DAVID
Timber,
Before you waste your time on these customers get an answer to the key question.."What will it take to make you happy?"
If you don't know where they are comming from your going to waste a lot of time and energy....perhaps on the wrong solutions. good luck
I know how you feel. I felt the same way five years ago. The cherry stained un evenly. I emphasized the wood charecter but it went no where. We then dyed the entertainment center per the stain reps. instructions. Now it was too dark. As a last resort we rebuilt the entertainment center with Eastern Cherry (PA). We found the Eastern Cherry stained up nice and even. We smiled as we delivered the re built center and vowed not to build for this customer again. The dyed entertainment center sold two months later. What we did was right for us. In the car business we said "time kills deals." You'll find the longer this drags out your hope for resolve diminishes, and drags your attitude down. Move forward with a lesson learned.
Timber,
When I take on a new project and a new client I am sure to have everything no matter how trivial in writing also I have all parties invovled sighn the contract.
First of all I get 1/3 non refundable deposit down or the price of materials which ever is less. Then when the project is about half finished and all parties are completly satisfied I recieve the rest of the monies except for the last 1/3 and thats do apon delivery. But I will never unload the item until the remainder of the $$$ is paid in full. Its sad but true that if certain peolpe can get away with it they will take advantage of a honerable situation But keep in mind that everything that I've said above is in writing and potencial clients are welcome to take a contract with them so if they need time to read over it or in extreme cases I've had clients take a contract to their attorneys to make sure everything is completly legal. I know that this seems really extreme but I think I've almost seen it all when it comes to dealing with the public and its been my expierence that the majority of the public is honest but their are a few that makes owning your your own buisness a little bit more of a headache.
Good Luck and check with an Attorney usually a phone consiltation is free and you will find out exactly where you stand with clients.
J. Clark
the"PUTTERIN YANKEE" woodworking shop
P.S
Have you ever tried a product from Minwax called Wood Conditioner its been my expierence with pine or cherry that using the conditioner helps prevent some of the blotches and helps end grain stain more evenly.
Thank's for your replies. I have good new's I have contacted former clients who are aware of the quality work I do. They are interested in purchasing this unit and are looking forward to seeing it in person. After talking again with the clients I built this for I am more convinced that they misjudged the impact of a darkly stained media center that is this size. Again this is three sections with a total width of 11'6" by 7'6" tall. This is a monster of a unit. I suspect this may be their way of backing out and not having a piece that is to dark for their decor. I am keeping a cool head about it and still being polite. I did however underbid this job a bit so maybe I can recover a little more back with another interested partie.
Thanks Guy's
Happy New Year
Dale
Dale,
As others have advised: get it in writing! Your legal rights depend--in part--on what the contract says.
However, if your contract says nothing about clients rejecting the piece, refund of deposit, and so on: The clients do not have a right to reject the goods for any reason. They may reject for poor workmanship or materials, but only rarely may they reject the goods because they aren't exactly what they ordered, or thought they ordered (though this would not seem to be a problem in this case. You did have them sign the back of the samples with"approved," didn't you?). Generally, if the goods are suitable for the intended purpose the client has no legal right to reject them. In some cases, and this may be one, they may be entitled to a few dollars off the price if the piece varies wildly from the approved design. But judges can usually spot those who are trying to be dishonest, and have little sympathy with such complaints as "it's too dark."
As for refunding the deposit. Under no circumstances should you now do so! What if the other party interested in the piece will not pay the contract price for it? You can make up the difference out of the first clients' deposit and then return the rest. In other words, assuming your contract does not otherwise provide, you are entitled to make the contract amount on this piece; if the first clients won't pay all of it, and neither will the second (who are under no contractual obligation to you) you may force the first clients to make up the difference. This will be much harder to do if you return their deposit. Also, you may hold on to their deposit on the chance that no one will buy it. In that case you would be entitled not only to the entire deposit, but you could take them to court to force them to pay the balance. (Though you would likely be ordered to turn the piece over to them. You are not allowed to profit twice, once from the contract clients and second from somebody three or four or ten years hence who sees the piece and buys it. You must also make a good faith effort ot ameliorate your losses. In other words, if your clients refuse to pay anything further--prior to your taking them to court, of course--you must try to recover as much of your losses as you can; usually this is done by selling the goods.)
A few dollars spent in an attorney's office for him/her to draw up some form-type contracts for you would, IMHO, be well spent. An attorney who often deals with tradesmen and contractors would likely know most or all of the pitfalls and what needs to be in a contract to protect you.
Alan
Thanks again guy's
I also posted this message on the WoodNet forum and recieved the same unsterstanding and knowledgable replies. I will copy these post's and send them to this client names and E-mails deleted ofcourse. Maybe they will at least feel a little quilty of the situation they put me in. When I first meet these people I had an uneasy feeling about them I should have followed that and said no thankyou. This has been a lesson well learned for me. Also on the plus side this will make a great cover for a portfolio in the future. My wife would like to keep it but at the time we don't have the room for it. I also prefer Cherry to be natural.
Take Care
Dale
I agree with the posts you've already gotten.....but one thing I keep on my shop wall is an old saying: "Do a good job and your customer will tell someone; Do a bad job, and they'll tell ten people." Whereas there was no "bad job" as far as your craftsmanship, the customer won't tell others that part. Whenever I've run into a similar problem, I write it off, suffer my loss, and, believe it or not, have had customers come back to me for another piece to build. Of course, they will also get an iron-clad written agreement to sign.
Len (Len's Custom Woodworking)
I sometimes indulge a little fantasy of earning a reputation so hot that I could make customers pay 100% in advance with no promise of ever delivering anything. Maybe I'll make your piece, maybe I won't. Maybe I'll die, or retire, or take all the money and move to Switzerland. But you have no recourse. The only thing you get for sure is a receipt for the money.
Hey, who you trying to be? Frank Lloyd Wright?Gardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Nah. Since it's just a fantasy, I can specify that besides being beautiful, all my stuff would also be durable.
Edited 12/29/2002 12:25:28 AM ET by Uncle Dunc
At my Thanksgiving art fair, i talked to a friend of mine who makes custom quilts. She'd gotten paid by a client to make a quilt with fabric the customer herself supplied. The customer took it home, then brought it back saying her interior designer nixed the colors so she wanted her money back. My friend had an iron-clad contract, but the customer threatened a lawsuit. Without time to futz with a lawsuit over only $1000, the artist finally offered to sell the quilt in the course of her shows and refund the client's money when that happened, minus a 20% fee. The odd thing is, this placated the client, the quilt eventually sold, my friend got her fee, and the client has since bought several more quilts off the rack from her...probably out of guilt!
Timber,
Had almost exactly the same experience some years ago when I built a small but quite complicated entertainment center for an architect according to his supplied plans. Walked thru picking out the cherry with him, gave stain samples for approval, and even invited him to the shop to see the piece in stages of production, etc. When completed he refused the piece for reasons I still don't know other than some vague references to the color of the stain. The event broke my heart especially since I thought it was my best work at that time. He then had a lawyer sending me threatening letters wanting his deposit back. I returned the letters with a summons to small claims court and after the long wait for a court date, in fact the day before we were scheduled for court, the architect came and picked up the piece and paid me in full. Needless to say it was all I could do to avoid going ballistic on the guy. Times were very lean for me then and the lumber bill was overdue and my kids needed groceries. Despite my shattered spirit and stomped ego, the whole experience taught me alot about the business.
sawick
Thanks for your reply. This sounds very close to what I am going through. I am glad to hear things went well for you in the end. So many people have gone through this same situation that we can all learn from. It is great to have forums like this to share these setbacks and help other's avoid them. I have studied and practiced woodworking for many years but I see I need to put more attention into buisiness skills and contract writing. Sometimes learning has a price. But than again knowledge is valuable.
Take care
Dale
Hi Sawick,
That sounds like an a##hole on a power trip.
May I ask how you changed your business practices to avoid a situation like that?
Thanks,
Tom
Does anyone have a reference/source for a workable contract that won't scare the s**t out of a prospect, or are those mutually exclusive? I have found with photography and some other creative endeavors that it's nearly impossible to have a really comprehensive, iron-clad contract that anticipates everything, that doesn't turn off the prospect, and which can withstand the vagaries of judges, lawyers and courts. Is there a real-world contract out there that's workable?
No contract sources, but you might be interested in this discussion on screening customers.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=25606.1
I also remember seeing a message here or on Breaktime from a guy who is busy enough that he only accepts work from people referred by his past customers.
Yup. That thread almost made me add my own stuff. But, more to the point, from where I see it a woodworking commission doesn't have nearly the complications those guys have (my son is a building contractor and I've seen some of the problems they get into) and it should be somewhat easier to tie up who's responsible for what when it comes to furniture or whatever. That's why I thought somebody might have a reference to a contract or "understanding". I'm pretty good at sizing up a prospect, but -- as one of the guys on that thread mentioned -- sometimes you just go for the job regardless. And it's usually a hassle when you do. I don't really need to take whatever comes these days as I once did in another business, but I'd still like to reserve my time, energy and talent for the "right" situation. Thanks for the reference -- Jim
Jim,
I don't know of any pre-printed form contracts that would be suitable--if that's what you're asking. But a good model might be one that contractors employ. Contractors share many of the issues that you're worried about, such as amount and status of the deposit, payment schedules, alterations after the work has begun ("change orders") and so on. Especially useful might be the contract used by custom cabinet makers or finish carpenters. But again I'd tell you to spend a little time with an attorney to make sure the contract really is suitable.
Don't be afraid of judges and juries. They can see what's going on and are anxious to do right. The only problems arise when the contract itself is a mess--where the intentions of the parties cannot be determined, or a contingency that arose wasn't dealt with in the contract. In cases where the contract is ambiguous it is supposed to be interpreted against the party who wrote the contract.
But all this should do is to encourage you to get a good contract. No client should be frightened by a fair contract; a properly written contract, a contract that is fair, protects the interests of both parties. Besides, you can always explain that a little discomfort at the outset can eliminate real trouble later on.
Alan
One sure way to get a Contract that will fit the needs of your business and the type of customers you deal with is to consult a lawyer. That is what they do and as woodworkers are good at what they do lawyers are good at what they do. The price would not be that great and it would be money well spent._DAVID R. WARNER, JR
Tom,
Recollecting, I think the mistake I made with that customer was by assuming he knew about the vagaries of hand built furniture. He was an architect after all! Perhaps I did not communicate clearly to him about all the details and expected time frame, or at least did not communicate in a manner that he understood. That is, the amount of time a piece takes, extra costs and back-ordering time for materials, acts of god, and all the other sundry events that can and do occur in the real world.
And, at that early time of my career I probably had a mindset of "servant" rather than "consultant" or "expert" to potential customers. Such a one-down approach perhaps made me too subservient and wanting instead of prideful in making a valued piece deserving of a set price.
To answer your question about changing business practices, I guess the fundamental learning piece for me was that now I never assume anything. I learned that just because a potential client may be an architect, doctor, lawyer or Indian chief, I still need to apply sound client screening skills, tough minded business practices, and clearer estimations/explanations. Except that this job was unique in that the customer supplied me with the plans and specs so maybe I assumed that the usual bidding process did not apply. I won't make that error of assumption again.
sawick
Is this Dale from Tahlequah??
Since Tahlequah is a small town, I think I would let them out of their contract and refund all their money. Then, I would take them off any future work list! If you have a buyer, then you shouldn't lose much, hopefully.
I wouldn't tend to take the above approach here in Houston.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
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