Replies

1. 
   roc | Dec 15, 2011 03:46am | #1

   You may be a little lost

   This is Fine Woodworking

   You may get better answers to your question over on Fine Home building

   Use a carbide bit.  Maybe a solid carbide bit and if you take shallow cuts and go fairly slow you will just cut through the nails and all.  When the nail is imbedded in the wood it is basically encased in the wood and you can "machine " through it with the harder bit no problem.  If you go too fast or take too deep a bites then you may chip the bit.  You may chip the bit from dirt and grit in the flooring anyway.

   If you have a speed control on the router turn it down to slowest setting.

1. 
   tom_47 | Dec 16, 2011 11:27pm | #7

   roc,

   Thanks for your help.     I think I'm going with with "stronger magnet" nail search and router bit approach.

2. 
   swenson | Dec 15, 2011 09:06am | #2

   Nails

   Is there any way to get to the underside of the flooring in question?  My wood flooring is nailed to sub flooring and the nails show through on the underside in the unfinished basement below.  In a finished floor below, the drywall ceiling could be removed for just that section below the entrance to see what kind of nails you are dealing with, where they are, or if they could be pounded back up thru the flooring.  Perhaps removing the boards just in the section in front of the entrance first would be the way to go.  Perhaps a metal cutting Sawsall blade, cutting right thru the floor and nails would allow you to drop unwanted guests right into the basement trash bin.  Good luck.  Eye protection is a must if you rout, but you know that.

1. 
   Westchester | Dec 15, 2011 10:14am | #3

   Tiles

   Roc + Swen gave you good choices. Sorry for my advice against this but I would reconsider cutting the floor.  Wood floors are just too nice to cut up.  Leave them alone and get a small carpet for the entrance.

   SA

1. 
   tom_47 | Dec 16, 2011 11:34pm | #9

   Westchester,

   Thanks for you input.  The decission to replace will be my son's.  We're going to try to find the nails with a better nail finder and use the router approach.

1. 
   roc | Dec 17, 2011 03:30am | #13

   Here you go :

   http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?23368-Hardwood-Flooring-Part-Deux-Borders-Russian-Fields-Medalians-etc.

   I quote :

   By the way, the standard nails used in flooring guns are soft steel. I have actually cut through a number of them with my carbide tipped router bit with no problems. Just take it nice and slow.

   end quote

   http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-47208.html

   See "Silverback" in the thread above.

   They don't even mention nails here, they just go to town.  Are there nails in this floor ?

   http://hardwoodfloorsmag.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=481&zoneid=2

   http://hardwoodfloorsmag.com/forum/topic291-installing-inlays.aspx

   http://www.ehow.com/how_12176876_diy-inlaid-wood-floor-borders.html  

2. 
   tom_47 | Dec 16, 2011 11:32pm | #8

   Swenson,

   Thanks for your help.  Access from below is not possible  We're going to try using a stronger nail finder and the router approach.

3. 
   RalphBarker | Dec 15, 2011 11:28am | #4

   arc-ee-meaties

   I'd mark the arc on the floor, and then have a another go at finding nails along the arc, but with a more powerful nail finder. "nibbling" away at it via arcs of smaller diameters merely increases the chances of running into a nail along the way.

   I'd also use a relatively small-diameter bit (1/8" or 1/4"), taking small cuts, depth-wise, as Roc suggested.

1. 
   tom_47 | Dec 16, 2011 11:39pm | #10

   Ralph,

   Thanks for you help.  We going to incorporate your ideas: stronger magnet, and smaller bit diameter.  To clarify, we are going to route the whole area away, just defining the edge, 10 or so square feet of flooring will be pryed up.

4. 
   wdwerker | Dec 16, 2011 07:14am | #5

   Get a 1/2 diameter ball magnet N42 strength from K&J Magnetics for $3.  I keep one in my pocket every day. It will find every nail in the floor as you roll it around on your layout line.  It will find metal studs behind drywall and the nails in wood studs.  

   Weaker magnets and smaller magnets don't work as well. Just try a few different paths for your cut until you find a nail free place to route.  Hitting a nail with a carbide bit will send shrapnell flying at high speeds.  Drill a hole beside a nail and cut it with a metal blade in a jigsaw.

   Steve Duncan

   Cabinetmaker since 1978

   http://www.steveduncan.com

1. 
   swenson | Dec 16, 2011 08:47am | #6

   I keep one in my pocket

   Just a note for those with credit cards, don't keep magnets in pockets with credit cards in them.

2. 
   tom_47 | Dec 16, 2011 11:42pm | #11

   Steve,

     Thanks for your advise. We're going to get a stronger magnet nail finder and cut the edge with a router.

3. 
   roc | Dec 17, 2011 02:42am | #12

   Might want to wear a face shield until he gets the hang of it

   :   ) 

   >Hitting a nail with a carbide bit will send shrapnel flying at high speeds.<

   That is true in the worst case scenario.

   In reality, since nails are quite soft and malleable steel it will usually just machine through it.

   See: milling machine end mill bits, solid carbide.

   Of course if the nail were sticking out off the edge of a board of soft wood . . . blowie !  But buried in oak and well supported because of it. Should work fine.

   Best to find with the magnet ahead of time and go extra slow at the nail.  Yah that would be a good thing.

   Go slow, light cuts, slowest speed on router.

   Voil'a

5. 
   hammer1 | Dec 17, 2011 07:12am | #14

   Often, hardwood is nailed with hardened nails, especially in the 60's before guns were commonly used. Rather than try to cut through with a router and run the risk of hitting nails or having the router jump or worse, you could swing the arc with a router on a trammel. The nails are in the tongue of the boards. You could cut almost as deep as the tongue, then remove the flooring, finish the cut with a jig saw after the boards are removed and then reinstall them.

   I have used a similar tactic when cutting siding to fit an arched window. In those cases, I tack the siding temporarily, cut it to the rough opening, place the window and trace around the casing, remove the siding and cut to the mark, install the window and reinstall the siding.

1. 
   tom_47 | Dec 17, 2011 08:11pm | #15

   Floor Nail Hardness

   Hammer1,

       We've pulled up some of the flooring (doing repair) and had a chance to see some of the nails.  They're wedge shaped and "look" hard.  My plan is find the nails first and route the cut line to avoid them.  But, just in case, we'll be using shallow passes.

   Thanks,

   Tom

1. 
   hammer1 | Dec 19, 2011 10:14am | #19

   Those were the standard nails used for hardwood flooring for a long time. Hand nailed then set. The blunt end helped prevent splitting, just like blunting a sharp nail, and the taper prevented the flooring from working up loose. The head went parallel with the tongue so it didn't clip the edge like a round head can. You needed good hammer skills in those days, miss or drive too deep and the mating edge was toast. They weren't as hard as tempered nails since they could bend but not as easily as wire nails. I've hit them with a circular saw and they spark hot enough to catch the wood on fire.

   There can be issues taking up flooring. With a 60's floor it may have been refinished. Funny, hardwood flooring fell out of favor through the 60's and 70's due to the up keep and expense. Wall to wall carpet became the norm. If the floor needs refinishing I'd probably take it up. If not, I'd try shallow cuts and hope I could find the nails before the router did. They will be on the tongue which helps. I would also not cut all the way through since you may hit subfloor nails. Leave a hair and finish with a utility knife. I'd make sure I had an extra bit or two, just in case.

2. 
   roc | Dec 18, 2011 04:22pm | #18

   Oh Ya Well . . . If A Guy Wanted To Do The Job Right . . .

   but wouldn't that just kill that thrilling sense of adventure not to mention the potential for fire works.

   >Often, hardwood is nailed with hardened nails, especially in the 60's before guns were commonly used. Rather than try to cut through with a router and run the risk of hitting nails or having the router jump or worse, you could swing the arc with a router on a trammel. The nails are in the tongue of the boards. You could cut almost as deep as the tongue, then remove the flooring, finish the cut with a jig saw after the boards are removed and then reinstall them.

   I have used a similar tactic when cutting siding to fit an arched window. In those cases, I tack the siding temporarily, cut it to the rough opening, place the window and trace around the casing, remove the siding and cut to the mark, install the window and reinstall the siding.<

   But then that's why you're the big dog.

   :   )

    

1. 
   hammer1 | Dec 19, 2011 10:48am | #20

   I'm not so much the big dog as I am the old dog, Roc. Just happened to be there doing it in the 60's and still am.

6. 
   Quickstep | Dec 17, 2011 09:27pm | #16

   You mean cut nails, like this?

   I can't think of a router bit they won't destroy. Remember too, that the nails are driven at an angle, so they may span a greater distance than is apparant. 

   
1. 
   tom_47 | Dec 18, 2011 01:57pm | #17

   Cut nails

   Exactly like that.

1. 
   swenson | Dec 20, 2011 08:14am | #21

   If the flooring was being nailed into a sub floor made of wood there would be no reason to use cut nails, but if it was being nailed into cement, as I believe is the case here since there is no basement below, cut nails would be the thing.  Careful.  Be safe.  Eye protection!

   EDIT- a little knowledge is sometimes a dangerous thing.  I grew up thinking cut nails were the hard tapered nails you use in cement and now, with a little google search I find out there are a lot more cut nails than just those.  My bad.  Looks like cut nails is a style not a temper and were used in wooden flooring a lot in the past.