Within last 48 hours have seen several mentions of cutting dovetail joints on the tablesaw. Where can I read about this and learn how it is done? I am serious. At least two of the posts if have seen were high on this method. Please tell me.
I have seen articles and jigs for doing this on the bandsaw, but somehow have missed any talking about doing it on a table saw.
Thanks,
Billy B.
Replies
Billy,
I have seen a number of writeups on using the table saw for dovetails. I am on a trip right now and I cant remember where I have seen them. I believe that they were all in woodworking mags, and were written by woodworking gurus who were trying to be interesting.
There is one obvious problem with doing it. When you tilt the blade, you get a "flat" where the top of the blade cuts through. This is impossible to compensate for (or at least, I can't figure out how to do it.) So the articles talk about having a blade specially ground so that you avoid the problem. This is sort of like buying a Hummer and having it modified to be small and cheap to drive. :-) It never made sense to me.
Now the bandsaw doesn't have this problem because the blade is narrow. Philip Marcou posted a nice message in the last week about using the bandsaw for doing his dovetails.
My suggestion would be to try another method. But the purpose of woodworking as a hobby is to have fun, and if you will have fun using a table saw to do dovetails, then go ahead and have a blast. Let us know how it works out.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Billy,
There was an article in Fine Woodworking a few years ago, by Steve Latta about cutting dovetails on the table saw. I remember quickly scanning the article and thinking it was a rather dubious method. Sawing ( by hand) is the fastest step in making a dovetails, so I can't see any tool working as well as a good dovetail saw.
There was one gem in the article. He ran a small rabbet on one of the mating pieces, and this made for a very clean joint on the inside. I've not used the idea, but I thought it was quite clever.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Mel and Rob--Thanks for your replies. You were both helpful. I have done hand-cut dovetails. I did fair, but never was satisfied with my work. May just try it again.
Rob--I had visited your website before. Very interesting. I am envious of your workmanship. Beautiful!
I will do a search on articles regarding cutting dovetails with the table saw. But, as pointed out, the cut not being just right at top may be a good reason for me to stay away from it. I hope I hear from some more. And, I will let you know if decide to try that.
Thanks again, best wishes.
Billy B.
And further, I think that method involves having two saw blades , one with all teeth left hand ground the other right hand so that the cut can go full depth at the base of each tail. All very fussy. If one has three thousand of them to do one might as well get either a good jig or a jig that is use in conjunction with a shaper or a dedicated machine such as a Brookman Dovetailer- made with love by the British bretheren.
I feel that the rebate on the inside is more of an (unnecessary) aid to alignment rather than an aid to a neat appearamce on the inside. If one has scribed with a cutting gauge then the chisel would have been guided by this so all should be neat and straight.
Also, can you imagine the angst on finding that one has forgotten to allow for this rebate....Philip Marcou
read the latta article--get an inexpensive blade and have it groun to 11 degrees, for example, it cost me about $10-- it saves a lot of time and is good for case work too-- the results look hand cut and of course they are partially. I dont think jigs will work for lipped drawers?
b
i forgot you only need one blade--if saw tilts left--flip work piece to get right tilted cuts-b
In addition to the Fine Woodworking previously mentioned, I seem to remember that Mark Duginske's book Mastering Woodworking Machines also had a section about cutting dovetails with the table saw and the band saw.(I can't lay my hands on it to confirm.) His Band Saw Handbook has the band saw method in it.http://www.woodworkerslibrary.com/search.php?substring=Mark+Duginske
Thanks, QC. I am keeping this information together and will be checking references within a few days.
Billy B.
I have just been looking at a Taunton D V D MASTERING WOODWORKING MACHINES with Mark Duginske in which he shows how to cut dovetails on the table saw fantastic . it's night time here cant wait until tomorrow .Hope this helps
boysie 39
Boysie--You post does help and I appreciate it.
Billy B.
QC,
The Latta article has several improvements to the basic method described years earlier by Duginske, including cutting of half blind joints.
The little technique, described by Latta, of cutting a rabbet in the pin board to help orient the tail piece, and improve the final appearance of the joint is not limited to this method, but is applicable to any method of cutting dovetail joints. When cutting by hand, a shoulder plane can nicely create this rabbet.
Rich
Billy, I like the TS method better than the BS method, especially for large work.
I always cut the pins first, using a sled made by screwing a fence to two miter gauges set to 10 -12º, and a little 1/4" mdf bed for the work to ride on, with the work standing on end.
I like to waste the wood in between with a jig saw, and a very thin blade, followed with a router to clean up the bottom. The router has a sub-base carpet taped onto it so there is no hole around the bit to drop into. I usually used a long dovetail bit, and just cut close by eye, then finished out into the corners with a skew.
After scoring a light line across the tail ends for the bottom of the next cut, I usually clamped a nice straight square 3x3 onto the side, then clamped the part with tails to that, then scribed the lines to mark for cutting the tails.
Now tilt the TS blade to match what you used on the miter sled. With a new sacrificial scrap bed on the sled, make a zero clearance cut to index the marks to. You will cut one side from one side, then have to transfer the marks to the other side with a square. For the second cut, I always cut shy of the line, then guess by eye how much to move over to make the final trim cut. You will be surprised to learn how easy it is to guess 10-20 thousandths, and hit it.
Once again waste the scrap with a band-saw or jig-saw, leaving a little extra to finish off with the router.
One great thing about the TS is that all of these cuts will be straight and flat, and if you want to go back and trim 5 thousandths of an inch or less to make it fit perfectly, it is as easy as pie. as mama would say.
Edited 2/8/2007 9:16 pm by KeithNewton
Keith--If I gave the impression that I claim other methods are better than the table saw method, I apologize. I certainly did not mean to make any such claim. I really do not know, yet.
I am trying to learn about this method. I have an urge to learn different methods, techniques and procedures. Often after I learn, I don't use them any more. Most of us have our own pet methods, tools and jigs. I am no different, but I like to explore other things, if they look to me to be worth exploring. I think the table saw method just may be worth my exploring and learning it.
I will be reviewing your post again. It's going to take awhile for me to absorb the steps you describe.
Thanks for your reply.
Billy B.
Billy, No you didn't give that impression, and While I posted the message to you, I was thinking of a couple of post that followed yours which didn't seem to sound favorable to this method, without having actually tried it. I deleted that last line, I guess it sounded tacky, and misdirected. I am sorry.Once you get accustom to using this method, you can do some fine work using it.
Billy,
After reading something Keith said, I went back to look at the article to see if I could refresh my memory of why I was skeptical of the table saw dovetailing approach. I didn't want to dismiss something on what turned out to be a five year old memory.
As I said in my original post, sawing by hand goes very quickly; yes it does require a little practice, to keep the cuts square, but all woodworking joinery requires practice, to achieve good results, including those done on the table saw.
Latta, says it saves time in the layout, but the same advantage in time savings is achieved by gang-cutting when sawing by hand. This stack cutting also results in identical pieces, and this has come in handy when I've ruined a piece. Even this interchangeability is of limited value; while I don't mind making a few extra drawer sides, I'm obviously not going to make an extra side or an end for a project like a blanket chest.
The biggest downfall of the method shown in the article, which is inherent in the table saw approach, is cutting the pins. This is the part of dovetailing ( if you are a tails first kind of guy like I am) that requires the greatest precision, a fact that the author of course knows, since he says only a knife will do. In the article the bulk of the waste is removed with a dado head and the pins are pared to the line. I will occasionally have to pare a cut, but I can say that having the joint fit right from the hand saw is much better. I find it more difficult to pare to a line, than to saw to one with the dovetail saw. Also, I think it would take far longer to go back and pare all of those cuts and than it would to saw them with a dovetail saw.
I have no doubt that excellent dovetails can be made on the table saw, but there is no clear superiority to using the table saw over the dovetail saw, and some distinct disadvantages.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob, I feel my hand-cut dovetails are as accurate (tight-fitting, gap-free, etc) as the joint can be made. Having used the table saw method quite a bit, I can assure you it is possible to make "perfectly fitting" joints, lovely as those cut by hand in terms of layout, proportion, etc. I don't try for speed in making hand-cut dovetails, on the other hand I don't dawdle. I can assure you that in a "production run" (cutting a large number of drawers), the table saw method is much, much faster (a matter of hours) than doing the job by hand, even using "ganging methods." And trying to do a lot of drawers by hand is a tiring process that leads to errors and frustration. But it's a natural, easy process for the TS method. Rich
All,
Well, it seems that there are as many "right" methods of cutting dovetails using the tablesaw, as there are for using handtools.
I have made a pair of angled blocks, and use them with stop blocks, clamped to the miter fence, to determine the spacing of the pins. The stock is presented to the blade held vertically. The wood between the pins is wasted by making repeated passes. The tails are laid out by scribing, and I cut them on the bandsaw.
While cutting the pins on the tablesaw is monotonous, and tedious, it is faster (for me) than cutting by hand, or by handsawing the pins and bandsawing the waste between them. It is a useful method if you are making multiple joints. I use this method to reproduce the irregular spacing on a box that I make for Old Salem, in NC; usually I'm cutting a dozen or so of them at a time.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Ray,
Your approach is interesting and is one I've not heard before. It certainly makes more sense than using the table saw to cut the tails.
I must be the odd ball ( I usually am) when it comes to cutting dovetails; I enjoy sawing them by hand and it goes very quickly, so quickly in fact that any other method seems slow by comparison. This may come from my attraction to repetitive tasks. When I worked as a carpenter, I loved to shingle roofs and tape drywall; tasks that are normally not something a person looks forward to.
I'd like to see a photo of that Old Salem Chest, if your are able to post one.
Rob Millard
Rob,
It is a candlebox, not a chest, but here it is, albeit a little dark:
http://www.davidraypine.com/portfolio.php?spgmGal=Other&spgmPic=1&spgmFilters=#pic
I've been making these for Old Salem now for quite some time, and am constantly challenging myself to make them more efficiently. The funny spacing of the pins and the fact that the top edge of the box is molded and mitered at the corners, makes this a bit of an interesting project to build one at a time, much less in multiples. I've played with various jigs and gew-gaws, but this is what works for me now.
My usual method of cutting half-blind dovetails involves handsawing the pins first, hogging out the waste in between with my mortiser, and cleaning up what's left at the bench. Then scribing the tails, and bandsawing them to the scribed line. It's not "handwork" to a purist, but it works for me. I hand cut casework that's too big to take to the mortiser or the bandsaw, so still keep my skills at an acceptable level.
Regards,
Ray
Ray,
I don't know how I confused a candle box with a chest.
I like the box, it is more detailed than any others I've seen. I've got the pieces all roughed out for a couple of them, to demonstrate dovetailing at the living history park I volunteer at, but for some reason I have not gotten around to making them.
I also like your website, in particular the tea table with the gallery fret. I may told you this before, but your article on fret work is at the top of my all time favorite Fine Woodworking articles. I can remember reading it (what must be nearly 20 years ago now) and being very impressed.
Rob Millard
Rob,
Thanks for the kind words. I feel much older now! Ha, ha.
Ray
Rich,
While I did not direct my comment to you, I will respond to your post.
There is no need to assure me that prefect dovetails can be cut on the table saw, I'm sure it is possible and said so.
As far as production runs, the most drawers I've made at one time is 18; for a New Port slant front desk. I don't think that wouldn't qualify as a production run. Again, you don't need to assure me of the speed; that you find it faster is all that matters.
I don't find cutting a any number of drawers by hand, frustrating, tiring or prone to error, if I did I'd either look at what I was doing wrong, or I'd find another method, like you have done.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
"While I did not direct my comment to you, I will respond to your post."
Hmm . . . well thanks, I guess. Should I feel honored?
Last time I checked, this was a public forum.
Hope the rest of your day goes better.
Rich
Rich14,
While I did not direct my posts to you, I will respond to yours.
There is no need to assure me that well made dovetails can be made on the table saw, I'm sure they can and I said so.
On the subject of production cutting, the most drawers I have made at one time is 18, for a New Port Slant Front Desk. While not an insignificant amount, I wouldn't call that a production run. Again, you don't need to assure me that the table saw results in a significant time savings, that it works for you is enough. For myself, I can't see the advantage.
I don't find any amount of dovetailing by hand to be tiring, frustrating, or prone to error; if I did, I'd look at what I was doing wrong, or I'd find another method like you have done.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Billy
Here's the link to the Latta article if you are interested. Tom
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2748
I have seen a method that I think has not been described in responses. I've never used it, so maybe someone already did and my bad reading and visualizing skills just let that slip by me. I think I found this in Taunton's Best Tips of FWW, the one that has four volumes, one each for TS, router, finishing and something else.
Anyway, the TS dovetails are cut on a sled that rides in the miter slots. One side of the sled has "tables" that angle vertically (low at the outisde, high in the center) at the DT angle, the opposite side has fences that angle back horizontally at the same angle. The vertically slanted side also has a tall fence backstop so you can hold your work in place. Basically, you never move the blade from 90 degrees, but instead the tail side is cut by angling the work on the vertically slanted tables. You cut all right sides of the tails on one side, then switch to the one slanted the other way and cut all the left sides. The pins are then cut on the horizontally angled fences the same way - one side of the pins on the right fence and the other side on the left. It looked pretty slick. You'd have to be really precise building the jig, but my recollection is you don't have to angle the blade or use a specially ground one either.
I've never cut a dovetail even once in my life so this is one of the methods I plan to try this spring, along with every other tip, trick, technique, and what have you I've ever seen.
To all--I really appreciate your responses. I have learned from you.
Anon--Let an old "tool freak" and woodworker for 35+ years offer a bit of advice. Before you jump in and buy a jig, please give some thought about how often you will be cutting dovetails, what they will be used for, etc. Also, look carefully at the different methods and jigs that are used.
One thing I have learned, and not a whole lot else, is that you can put a lot of money into something that will end up collecting dust. Also, a skilled person, will often figure out how to do something with the equipment he already possesses, that is if it's something he won't be repeating often.
Another thing--It is good to ask others what method, jig, etc. is best. But, be warned, most will recommend the jig they have or the method they have learned. Most often, those giving advice have not owned another such woodworking item or even tested another. Take into account what is recommended, but thoroughly look into each jig, machine or method yourself. You will be glad you did.
You may be as old and even more experienced as I am, so please don't take this as "fatherly" advice.
Billy B.
Here is a link to a video of hand cutting dovetails.
I think the time and effort of alternative methods is well and good.
I just wanted to use the video as an example of how practice is of the most importance as opposed to the method itself.
http://www.pem.org/luxury/furniture.html
Just click on the dovetailing video
J.P.
Edited 2/9/2007 12:57 pm ET by JP
Billy, I found a book at the library called (I believe) Tablesaw Tips and Tricks, which includes a piece on dovetails. It has lots of good images to show the process and techniques.
I have not tried it yet, but that would be a good source since the Taunton article requires you find the magazine back issue or pay the membership fee to see it online.
Regardless of the method you will likely have to pare to a line to clean them up and make them "perfect", so the TS method is no different.
Personally I plan to experiment with the BS and TS to see how it compares with trying to cut them by hand.
JH
Thanks, J.H. Will be going by the library in Tyler tomorrow on way to our woodworking club meeting. Will make it a point to go by and see if they have this book. I appreciate it. And, I will be trying this out. I wish you best in your trial.
One of my best friend's name was J.H. Actually his name was John Henry. He passed away about 5 months ago. Miss him.
Billy B.
I'm actually a Jake myself, Billy. Sorry to hear about your loss. I don't know how big your library system is, but often I get woodworking books transferred from other branches, so be sure to check all of the locations.
It had some good content with jigs and stuff, so you'll probably find it useful for other items if you can get ahold of it.
Gmoney, I'd probably spend the money but I'm on dial-up (rural, no DSL, arrrghh) so some of the features like videos won't work for me.
JH
i don't even remember what is accessable at fww without the fee and truthfully i don't remember what i paid to be a member, but i'm here daily searching all sorts of things. this is money well spent for such a great online resource. i recognize that you intended nothing negative toward this resource. i just wanted to sound off on my positive experience here.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled