Cutting dovetail tails on table saw
I just read an article in August FWW on cutting dovetails with emphasis on exactly how tails should be sawed by hand. Not being that hooked on the idea of doing all the work strictly with handtools I cut the tails on a table saw. I have a Woodworker 11 blade ground to a 7% bevel on top. I set the blade to 7%. Fasten a high backing board on the mitre guage, clamp the boardvertically and cut all the sides in one direction and turn the piece over and cut the others. If I am working on drawer sides I cut both sides at once. Through pins I cut on the band saw. Tilt the table to 7% and saw them. Is this considered dirty pool by the purists?
Replies
I have always cut dovetails by hand, but would like to do some experimenting with the tablesaw method myself. After a few years as a "purist", I have come to value the efficiency and contribution to craftsmanship that is obtained by machine work that gets me to the ultimate result I am after. If your dovetails look the way you want in your piece and satisfy the joinery requirements in your construction, then I would say your method is obviously valid. I am personally anxious to look into this to see what limitations (aesthetic and functional) might exist for me.
My view on topics like this has changed over the past few years since I started to learn more about the amount of water and steam powered machinery that was deployed for furniture making in the various Shaker communities in everything from rough cutting to making mortises. Now, I would be surprised if a Shaker craftsman used a table saw to make dovetails, but I'll almost bet that if they had any good way to fashion something like a Forest WW II with the 7 degree bevel like you have, they would have been quick to give it a try. It was, after all, a Shaker lady that is said to have invented the circular saw blade.
I
I remember seeing a special on the history channel I think about an old woodworking shop in New England. It had the original machinery and was water powered but the machines were just the same as today. I remember reading that the copying lathe was invented sometime during the revolutionary war to make rifle stocks for the Continental army muskets and rifles.
I'm just a hobbyist, but I'm an engineer by profession, and certainly no purist, so in my opinion, it doesn't matter what method you take to reach a particular result, just that you use the most practical and efficient method that is available to you and achieves the results and level of quality you desire.
In the future, if someone invents a device that connects to a computer and uses excimer lasers to precisely cut wood to shape, so that a hobbyist can download a plan, and then just put some wood in the machine and it all comes out cut perfectly to the plan dimensions, and all he has to do is glue it together and then put it in another machine to be automatically finished, will woodworkers complain about this and say we should still be using tablesaws and jointers and chisels? I like using my tablesaw as much as the next person, but if it were this easy, I'd probably use the laser machine instead.
D: Would the laser cut fast enough to not burn wood in general and the easier burning types like cherry? Other then the cost of laser cutting CNC machines what is in the way of laser cut furniture today? How about high pressure water/abrasive cutting machinery?
KDM
Would the laser cut fast enough to not burn wood in general and the easier burning types like cherry? Other then the cost of laser cutting CNC machines what is in the way of laser cut furniture today? How about high pressure water/abrasive cutting machinery
It was just a for-example. I really don't know about all the issues involved. Maybe I should have said "mini Jedi lightsaber": after all, many cuts in fine WW require not going all the way through the wood, which would be impossible with lasers or waterjets.
And yes, cost is a big concern too. I was thinking of some futuristic machine that would be small and affordable to a middle-class hobbyist.
Edited 9/7/2006 1:37 pm ET by dwolsten
"In the future, if someone invents a device that connects to a computer and uses excimer lasers to precisely cut wood to shape, so that a hobbyist can download a plan, and then just put some wood in the machine and it all comes out cut perfectly to the plan dimensions, and all he has to do is glue it together..."
And you would find this relaxing and enjoyable? Count me out!
Regards,
Dan
Edited 9/7/2006 12:58 pm by CajunDan
And you would find this relaxing and enjoyable? Count me out!
I would find it relaxing and enjoyable to sit at my computer and design my own furniture and other wood items, yes, especially if I could design in features that I don't currently have the skill or special tools to make with conventional tools.
Answer me this: forget the magic wood-cutting machine, how about my magic finishing machine that I also postulated? A machine you stick your completed but unfinished wood creation into, and with a little programming, performs all the finishing operations automatically: sanding, dyeing, staining, varnishing, lacquering, sanding between coats of varnish, pore-filling, polishing, etc. Would you really prefer doing all that work by hand? From what I've read, finishing is easily the least favorite part of a project for most woodworkers. I think such a machine, if affordable, would be extremely popular even among many hand-tool lovers.
I'll take the magic sanding machine!<!----><!----><!---->
I guess my perspective can be framed by the differing viewpoints on hunting. Some hunt with a scoped, 7mm magnum that can consistently hit a deer at 500 yards (if the hunter is up to it). Some hunt with an iron sighted 30-30 of shorter range. Others use a revolver with an even smaller range. Still others hunt with muzzleloaders, compound bows, or even long bows. And, of course, some hunt for meat at the butcher shop. No one perspective is the 'right one'.<!----><!---->
The act of hunting for most people is only partially driven by the desire to 'make meat' as efficiently as possible. People impose handicaps on themselves because it enhances their enjoyment of participating in the sport. In think the 'purists' in woodworking are similar. They use the tools and methods they use to enhance enjoyment. They are the bow or muzzleloader hunters of the group. Most hobbyists are like the guy with a revolver or 30-30, somewhere in the middle of the technology spectrum. Some production shops are like the 7mm magnum guy. And finally, non-woodworkers are like the person who shops for their meat.<!----><!---->
I pick the tools and methods I use because I can afford them, I enjoy them, and I am comfortable with them. I wouldn't want the laser thing because I enjoy milling wood, cutting joints, etc. (yes, with all my noisy corded power tools). I would take the sander/finisher because I don't enjoy that part as much. I would take the laser thingamajig if my favorite part of woodworking was gluing and clamping (it isn't).<!----><!---->
If I ran a shop for money, the laser would be on the list of must haves. I think people get too wrapped up about the method. Do what feels right. If dovetails by hand are it, go for it, but don't disparage the person who uses a jig and a router. Different choices for different people and personalities, isn’t it great?
But I think finances are a part of it, too. How many hunters using an iron-sighted 30-30 are doing that because they really prefer that gun, or because they just don't have the budget for some expensive super-accurate rifle?As for the butcher shop, that's something different entirely. For me, I like WW and many other hobbies because I like making things myself, instead of just going to a store and buying them. Part of it is the satisfaction of knowing I made it, and part is the ability to make it the way I want, instead of being forced to choose from a store's limited selection, or having to pay a professional lots of money for something custom. I imagine it's partly the same for hunters (not being a hunter myself): they probably partly like going in the woods and finding an animal themselves, and they probably partly like getting the animal they want (I don't see deer meat on sale at my grocery store), not having to eat farm-raised animals pumped full of antibiotics and fed ground-up cow brains with Mad Cow disease, etc.
Yes, finances undoubtedly play a part, but aren't the entire story. When I hunt these days, I chose a handgun or iron sighted rifle, even though I have far more 'efficient' rifles in the safe. Most bows cost more than a good scoped rifle.
For me it's the same with woodworking. I probably wouldn't buy a CNC router even if I had the excess cash. Like you, I woodwork because I like the process. Creating something better than I can get in a store (at least, better than I can get in most stores) is also a nice benefit.
There are stores that sell pre-fab kits with the parts already cut and milled, awaiting assembly and finishing. This would be kind of like using the mythical laser machine. Some folks are into that (I've put together a microwave cart like that once). To me they have done all the fun stuff (design, lumber selection, layout, milling) and left me with the crummy jobs (glue, sand, and finish). Of course, others have their own opinion which is valid for them.
Yes, finances undoubtedly play a part, but aren't the entire story. When I hunt these days, I chose a handgun or iron sighted rifle, even though I have far more 'efficient' rifles in the safe. Most bows cost more than a good scoped rifle.
So why use a rifle or gun at all? Why not just use a spear? I really don't see the point of using a lesser gun when a better one is readily available. Why not use the best tool that is available to you?
To go back to woodworking, this seems to me like using a Sears Craftsman router with "automatic bit height adjustment", when you have a nice (Dewalt/PC/whatever other high-end brand you prefer) router in your cabinet. Or using a B&D Firestorm portable table saw with a wobbly blade when you have a Format saw right next to it. Or even using a jigsaw to cut a large piece of wood when you have a nice Laguna bandsaw that would make the same cut much easier.
There's good reasons to use other tools sometimes. A handgun is far easier to conceal and/or carry than a scoped rifle. A bow and arrow is much quieter than a gun of any kind, which may be important if stealth is a requirement (or just a desire).
There are stores that sell pre-fab kits with the parts already cut and milled, awaiting assembly and finishing. This would be kind of like using the mythical laser machine. Some folks are into that (I've put together a microwave cart like that once). To me they have done all the fun stuff (design, lumber selection, layout, milling) and left me with the crummy jobs (glue, sand, and finish).
That's the first I've heard of such a thing. But is this really equivalent to the mythical laser machine? Do these pre-fab kits come with parts made of quality hardwoods, or are they cheap pine? What if you want it made out of walnut, or purpleheart, or even cocobolo, instead? How is the quality of the milling? How is the quality of the wood selection (did they put the best pieces in the best places, or did they not pay attention and mix up sapwood and heartwood, etc.). This is the problem when you get something made by some uncaring third-world factory worker. With the mythical laser machine, just as with any modern tool that you control yourself, you'd be able to make all these choices yourself.
This is a fun discussion, in a quasi-pointless kind of way ;-). <!----><!----><!---->
The reason I use a 30-30 (or a handgun for that matter) is precisely because it increases the challenge. It isn't akin to using a crummy router or saw when you could use a good one. It is more about using the tools that fit the historical and technical frame of reference you chose.<!----><!---->
In that light, I see it more akin to using a hand plane when you could use a power planer or jointer. It's not an argument of using poor quality tools (I always try to buy the best) it's about what level of technology you chose to use.<!----><!---->
With hunting (for me) it is about the experience, and I would like to give the deer more of a 'fair chance' as well as enjoying the experience. I don't hunt in tree stands (probably the most effective way to hunt) and I don't wear camo very often. I have a fairly low (self imposed) success rate, but a high enjoyment rate. I like to hunt with the old rifle or handgun, and wear a red wool jacket because they were the ways of the generations before me. I use the very best 'old' rifle and handgun I can get that fits my technological preference.<!----><!---->
Some woodworkers like to hand plane and hand saw everything because they were the ways of their forefathers. They aren't using crummy tools; in fact, they typically use the best available. They are just using tools that were state of the art 100 years ago. Kind of like Colonial Williamsburg, they don't use bad tools; they use good but low tech tools. I seek out the very best at the technology level I chose to employ.<!----><!---->
With regard to the pre-fab kits, HD and Lowe’s have some, a woodworking catalog that found its way to my house had others. At the Borg’s they are usually made form 'American hardwood', typically aspen. The microwave cart I did while living in an apartment actually looked pretty nice. The catalog had oak and maple kits pre cut and ready for glue, sanding, and finishing. The catalog had glowing reviews from ‘woodworkers’ all across the nation sing the praises of how easy it was to make XXX from the kit. Just glue, sand, and stain in a weekend.<!----><!---->
For me, a machine that could layout, cut and otherwise dimension all my lumber would be like that kit. Feed a board in one end and out comes a pile of parts ready for glue-up. I'd rather not let the machine do the 'fun' part. Of course, I don't make furniture for a living and my primary motivation is not to quickly fill my home with quality furnishings. I'd gladly let a machine do the sanding, because I don't consider it a 'fun part'. <!----><!---->
I guess I could be considered inconsistent by choosing to adopt certain technologies and not others. The real purist would strike off into the woods with an axe and fell his own timber and skid it out of the woods using a mule, before ripping it into boards in a pitsaw. Some do, but I doubt that most of our die hard hand tool enthusiasts go to that far!
Good points. Let me expand a little. Designing your furniture by computer is already do-able. There are a lot of good CAD programs out there. Professional CAD is a skill on par with woodworking.
CNC controlled lasers are probably not that far-fetched. But would they do a good job?
A lot of woodworking consists of laying out pieces in various ways on a board in order to get the best grain and color. A computer can't do that. Even if it did, you would find that the precision went out the window as soon as the wood began relieving internal stresses. OK, so now you have to cut out oversize pieces, let them relax, and then mill them to size. How much work have you saved?
So, you only have two real options: First, you can use engineered lumber (i.e. melamine) like the cheaper factories do. Or you can butcher real wood with mis-matched grain and toner-corrected color. Like the better factories do.
And, yes, I would buy a magical finishing machine.
Dan
CNC controlled lasers are probably not that far-fetched. But would they do a good job?
A lot of woodworking consists of laying out pieces in various ways on a board in order to get the best grain and color. A computer can't do that. Even if it did, you would find that the precision went out the window as soon as the wood began relieving internal stresses. OK, so now you have to cut out oversize pieces, let them relax, and then mill them to size. How much work have you saved?
So, you only have two real options: First, you can use engineered lumber (i.e. melamine) like the cheaper factories do. Or you can butcher real wood with mis-matched grain and toner-corrected color. Like the better factories do.
Actually, they are a little far-fetched, until someone figures out how to make a laser that stops cutting at a specific depth. Otherwise, you can't use it to make dados, blind or half-blind dovetails, bored holes which stop at a certain depth, mortises, and many things that routers are used for. That would really limit the machine's usefulness in replacing today's common WW tools.
Anyway, you're right about the machine's useful in light of lumber selection, etc. Many times newer technology tempts users into forgetting finer points like this. But that's an issue with the user, not the tool, I think. There should be no reason the user can't pick the particular board to put in the machine for a certain operation, orient it in a certain direction, etc. Just because we went from hand saws to table saws doesn't mean we stopped caring about choosing lumber carefully or worrying about the wood changing shape after cutting it. Same goes here. It'd just be a tool to replace today's tools, which wouldn't generate all the noise and sawdust, and would be faster, more accurate, far safer, and hopefully easier to use.
Edited 9/7/2006 4:45 pm ET by dwolsten
When I see laser-etched wooden doodads, they're all clearly surfaced before lasering, then the laser etches down a pretty flat, precise depth. Maybe they CAN do that (control depth of cut with a laser)... also surgery on eyeballs is done via laser scalpel, surely they're controllable and not prone to shooting a shaft of Jedi death right thru the old brain pan. :)
As a beginner, part of the fun for me is handling the wood, making something that's unique and mine. I might take wood chunks to some shop's "super zappo furniture maker" and get nice stuff for my house, but I'd still want to go out into the shop and make shavings and sawdust. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
When I see laser-etched wooden doodads, they're all clearly surfaced before lasering, then the laser etches down a pretty flat, precise depth. Maybe they CAN do that (control depth of cut with a laser)... also surgery on eyeballs is done via laser scalpel, surely they're controllable and not prone to shooting a shaft of Jedi death right thru the old brain pan. :)
Again, I just made up the laser machine thing to illustrate a point. But with this laser-etching, I thought those were using lasers to burn away material, so the depth was controlled by how long you applied the laser. The problem with cutting wood this way is that this would burn all the machined surfaces, and burned wood doesn't glue very well. As for eyeball lasers, I really don't know how that's done. I remember something about an "Excimer" laser which somehow doesn't burn the flesh, but you'd have to look it up to learn any more about it.
Edited 9/7/2006 7:04 pm ET by dwolsten
Actually, I saw a machine at the IWF that used artificial vision to select boards for matched grain in solid panels, and it did a pretter good job. It selected the best match, slapped them together, and glued them up perfectly. I found it somewhat discouraging. It was, however, way out of the small shop's price range.
I wouldn't worry about the purists (Roy Underhill?) I would worry if it was 'dirty pool' to you.
If the laser thingamajig comes out, some would embrace it and some wouldn't. I enjoy woodworking for the challenges it presents (and you get to play with some cool tools). I don't think I would be into the laser machine, if I wanted to remove all effort and skill from the equation I would just buy any furniture I need. On the other hand, I don't want to add so much effort that it ceases to become enjoyable. So for the hobbyist, follow your gut. For me, the table saw, thickness planer, and router are in there. For others, they want a hand ripsaw, planes, and a dovetail saw. No one choice is right (in fact they are both the right choices for the individual that made them).
If the laser thingamajig comes out, some would embrace it and some wouldn't. I enjoy woodworking for the challenges it presents (and you get to play with some cool tools). I don't think I would be into the laser machine, if I wanted to remove all effort and skill from the equation I would just buy any furniture I need.
However, buying furniture of the quality that you can build is prohibitively expensive. Most custom pieces made with real wood cost $1000-20,000. I sure can't afford a houseful of that. I could buy all my furniture right now, but I'd get crappy veneered-MDF factory-made crap that wouldn't last long; part of the reason I got into WW was so I could make higher-quality custom furniture at affordable prices, and have some fun making it.
But if I had an affordable (i.e., cost of a decent tablesaw) machine that I could just put my wood into, and have it all cut/jointed/planed/routed to size, I could build my houseful of custom furniture very quickly, with less errors and higher precision and quality. I could also spend more time on designing, rather than building.
But I don't think any of you have to worry; it'll be a LONG time before any such machines come around. Sure, we have CNC machines now which can do a lot of this, but the key word here is affordable. $100k+ isn't affordable to me. These machines cost a lot because they're big, complex, and have a lot of expensive, precision-machined, moving parts. That's why a major change in technology would be needed to realize such a simple and affordable machine.
Dirty pool by the purists? Yeah, I guess so. You're cheating...cheating yourself. I think you're taking the long way around the barn to avoid picking up a hand saw. I can saw two boards at once too and it really doesn't take me that long. I sincerely doubt your method is any faster than doing it by hand. The time consuming part is waste removal. If you want to do that with a router that might be a good idea. Also, I don't know how your method deals with half blind dts. Thru joinery for drawer fronts (assuming an applied front) is an inelegant waste of space, inappropriate for fine furniture- its better suited to kitchen cabinetry.
I'm not offended (marine corps drill instructors tried and failed to hurt my feelings- they are professional offenders!) but I think guys should use the term "purist" more carefully. You seem to think folks saw by hand because they are irrational "purists". I assure that is not the case. There are practical advantages to sawing by hand. There are real differences between kitchen cabinetry and fine furniture. Its not smoke and mirrors. I could elaborate, but I think you get my meaning.
Adam
Any which way if the results satisfy. Certainly finger joints on the table saw.
The only drawbacks to me of always using machines are:-
1) I don't think as fast as machines go. I make mistakes and tend to be too regular in spacing.
2) I like using guards and that slows things up.
3) I have breathing problems so hand work is kinder. And I get a kick from using hand tools and the outlay is less expensive. I do have lots of power tools but.
tex,
I usually cut dovetails partially by hand, partially with machine help. However I do make a couple of pieces in multiples, and with some regularity (over and over). I'm a pins first guy, and for these pieces, it is faster for me to cut the pins on the tablesaw. I stand the pieces up on end and present them to the saw at the flare angle of the pins. Using filler blocks of appropriate width between the stock and a fixed stop regulates a repeatable spacing of the pins. Mat'l between the pins is wasted with add'l passes across the blade. Tails are scribed as usual, and cut on the bandsaw. This is only faster than handwork if there are a half dozen or so boxes to be made, and if the time involved in making the spacers etc is pro-rated over the time saved by using them over and over, for multiple cuttings, of multiple pieces. Only works for thru dovetails of course.
I suppose cutting tails first as you do would have similar benefits of economy of time and repeatability, if used for multiple cuttings.
The viewpoint of a purist, while he's enjoying the moral high ground of purity, sometimes will cause him to miss seeing other vistas, due to limitations imposed by his rose-colored glasses.
Regards,
Ray Pine
I remove waste (tails or pins)with multiple cuts on saw either table or band. I lay out the tails by hand and don't fool with any spacing blocks etc. With either handsaw or power saw a matter of cutting to line. Easy to cut pins on TS also. Lay them out from tails and set mitre at whatever angle. Stand work on end naturally. I cut the pins on half blind by hand saw and chisel. I also drive a car with auto transmission and power steering and power brakes.
Sheesh,
Doncha just love the Internet?
The guy asks a question about cutting dovetails on the table saw and the resulting discussion is about completely-automated, computer-controlled laser cutting within a few messages and people complaining that there is no pleasure in woodworking if hand methods are not used.
Huh?
James Krenov, who probably single handedly ressurected interest in hand craft and woodworking itself in the U.S., describes in one of his books the reaction by a visitor to his shop at seeing his 8" jointer. The visitor is agast, thinking, surely Krenov would prepare all his stock using a handplane. Krenov's reply is essentially, "Do you think I'm insane? Why would I do that? Why would I use all my physical energy at a task that a machine does so well and so much faster? Without my machines, I would never get more than a few tiny projects done. I would never have the satisfaction of accomplishing the tesious and physically-demanding jobs they can do. And I would be too tired to design or carry out all the fine work that I can do by hand."
Sam Maloof "carves" the sexy curves that are the hallmark of his rocking chairs on a bandsaw, and uses whatever other power tools he needs to get the job done.
Purists? What would they have us do, use stone chips rather than the highly refined, modern chisels and saws that are 'permitted" for dovetail work? After all, there is no pleasure cutting a sharp line with a modern alloy, cryogenic-hardened chisel, that has been honed on a Tormek. Pleasure is only obtained by slowly carving away the wood with a piece of flint that has been chipped off a larger rock. Puh-leese!
I can cut dovetails by hand. It's not a difficult skill at all to learn. Any one can do it. It's not a big deal. I think it's a good idea to learn to do it well by hand, first.
I can cut dovetails on the bandsaw. It's a good method, better than hand-cut. I don't because making them on the table saw is the best way to do it.
The table saw method is the fastest, most accurate, most versatile method, leaving my energies to the layout, spacing and other aesthetic qualities of the process. To me, it is, by far the most pleasurable way to cut dovetails, beacuse I can make many, many beautiful joints in much less time than I can make a very few "OK" joints. And getting my projects done well is my goal. That's pleasure.
Use tools to improve your work. Purists? They are a figment of your imagination.
Rich
Rich,
Sounds to me like you might be one of them "table saw purists".
Ha.
Ray Pine
Ray,
You're onto me, man!
Yup, I'm a table saw purist.
The only proper table saw is an 18" model with a one-piece cast iron table. Power comes via a flat belt off the shop's power pulley system driven by a water wheel.
Never mind carbide-tipped blades, I make the blades myself from old shovels. After rough-cutting the shape out of the shovel body, I pound the disk flat, grind to a circular shape using a foot-powered treadle grinding stone, then hand-file the teeth.
Rich
I usually make the first cuts by hand and then rough out the waste with a band saw or coping saw and then finish the cuts with a wood chisel and a wooden block to act as a guide to hold the chisel straight and vertical.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled