Ok, I have been reading here a bit and thinking. ( I know it is a dangerous pastime thinking, but I cant help myself) So I am looking at a better way to rough cut plywood. I do NOT like using a table saw for this as it is a pain in the but and I wonder if it is not a bit dangerous, plus it takes two people (at least in my home shop)
I have available a 50 clamp/guide that works pretty well for the 48″ direction but the 8′ direction is a bit harder. They used to make an 8′ clamp system but the 4 different places I have looked for it (three of them used to have them) no longer have them and two of them said they are no longer available to them as they WANT them but can’t get them.
So what do you all do?
I have looked at the clamps/guides that are two part but I am not sure if this is a good solution or not. Also I have seen an article on building a panel cutter that looked interesting and I note that Rocklier has a kit that you can buy to make a metal plywood panel cutter system. So this may be an options (yes these are not cheep, I know) but what other options are out their? For instance Fest Tools (sp?) has a fancy saw that has some sort of guide available but does it come in 8′ and does it work?
I don’t have to much issue with spend some money on this (with in reason) as it is a big pain in the butt that I seam to do a lot of and anything that will make something I hate to do easier more accurate and faster (as well as safer) is something I am interested in so I can spend time on the rest of the wood working that I enjoy.
So let me know how you cut plywood. I am hoping for something better them my dad’s method of setting it on the picnic table and cutting it, the picnic table and the picnic table bolt (it ended up with a slot in the bolt) all at the same time!
With todays prices on good plywood it only would take a couple of oops moments to pay for a better system.
Doug Meyer
Replies
Perhaps the easiest solution for you is to make a cutting guide. This is a simple jig to make and you can find plans for it on most WWing sites. The basic construction is to take a length of 1/4" sheet stock (luan or tempered hardboard work well) and rip it to about 10-12" wide for the base of the jig. To this you glue and clamp a 3/4 plywood fence about 4" wide the same length as the base -- align the base and fence along one edge. At this point it doesn't matter if the edge of the fence is perfectly parallel with the base -- you will square it up later. After the glue dries, countersink screws through the base and into the fence. The final step is to take your circular saw and cut the edge of the base parallel to the fence (that is the reason you start with an extra wide base). Your jig is now ready to use. In use, you simply align the edge of the base on your cut line, clamp and cut. With a decent blade you will get decent cuts -- not perfect but decent enough that if you rip your pieces 1/8 - 1/4" oversize you can finish them up on the table saw.
You could use a factory edge of a piece of MDF. They have good edges. In my experience I've never had to make the 8' cut. I have always had a smaller panel and cut across with the 50" clamp edge like you. Then that leaves a smaller piece to deal with. I get it close and do the final cut on the TS. Good luck.
Ah yes but I build a lot of things that need that 8' cut like say book cases becuse I like to read and book cases, because i like to read (a lot) and cabinets for displaying things and say book cases (did i say i like to read?) :)
I have looked at the jig idea but issue is (not that i would build one) I dont really like to build jigs as my time is limited and i prefer to build other things so i tend to buy this type of thing. And the other issue is how to you get a trully straight edge to start with? I dont have a jointer that will give me that good and edge over that large a distance. (limits of a small shop) And the thing that really holds me back is will this thing stay straight? Of recent concern is safty as my father is getting older and I would rather that he not accidentally do something bad (and lord knows i have made enough mistakes of late)
So that is why i was wondering what other do. I have a feeling that i will end up doing the jib bit. I wonder if using a piece of aluminum would help? (When i do build jigs i tend to over build them)
Doug
The straight edge comes from using the factory edge of a sheet of mdf. The whole thing takes maybe 15 minutes to build. I made an 8' and a 4' guide two years ago, finished them with a quick coat of shellac, and spent less than 35 minutes. Use them all the time. Just line up the edge with your cut line, clamp it down at both ends, and cut. With a good blade, you can cut to exact dimensions, and be done. I'll never cut plywood on the table saw again. This is just too easy. If you don't have sawhorses, just lay the plywood on a sheet of 1'' or 3/4'' foam board on the ground, and cut away. If splintering is an issue, use painter's tape on the cut line.
Well as for the rough cut useing a chalk line depending on how much i have to work with I have tended to use this basic idea in the past. But sometimes my rough cuts can't aford to be that rough. And one screw up in a $125 dollor cherry plywood (for instance) and you could just about buy something to avoid the issue.
As for the 99" system when did you buy it? I saw one a couple years ago but all the local places (with in say 180 miles) of here that i am aware of no long have it available and most of them say they can't get it as they can not get in tough with the company that made it any longer.
Oh and I have been in that town (odd being as I am from Mich) when I was out thier way back in 87. Pretty State you have (Oragon)
Doug Meyer
I have a Tru-Grip 8-ftr, they are still available from a couple of online sources. I had the 2 and 4-foot versions, and picked up the 8-ft when Home Base went out of business, after the HomeDesperate / Lowers invasion.
It is one piece, stiff and true.
Try a Google search for it.
Also if any of your local stores sell Tru-Grip clamps from Griset, they should be able to order one.
This is odd, I have the 50" from these guys and they list Wood Craft as a supplier and my local wood craft was one of the places that told me they could not get ANY guide that does more then 50" with out a joint in the middle.
Also my local tool supplier said the same thing and they have a 50" unit hanging on the wall!
So if it is available why did two places that sell the little ones both tell me they could not get the 8' version any more from any company?
I am confussed.
Doug Meyer
Ok, Just looked at Amazon and they list it as not available. Cant find it on Woodcrafts page and Lee Valley just plan does not list anything longer then 50" version.
So the mystery continues.
Doug Meyer
Doug, I am sorry your having trouble locating one.
This is the contact information for the manufacturer:
Griset Industries, Inc.Santa Ana, CA 92711Phone: 714-662-2888Website: http://www.trugrip.com
Hopefully they can get one in your hands.
Thanks for the info, but i have been on thier web page and i have checked out about half of the suggested retail locations the show and NON of them are currently listing the 8' version as available.
This goes with the info i have gotten form local suppliers that they can not get 8' versions.
I have looked at the Veritus/LV system and that looks good I will look into the EZ system next I think
Doug Meyer
I saw this at Lowe's a little while back. http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=119887-1099-CG100&lpage=none
At under $20, it's not going to compete with higher end products, but if you're just trying to get close, it might be the ticket.
Half of that system works well but once you add the 2nd 50" piece there's just too much flex:(
That is the issue that i have had with the two part systems (or should i say that i have worried about with them)
Doug Meyer
I bought that and I can say it's a piece of junk. The piece that holds the two together with two screws is impossible to get strait and will not hold. Your better off trying to go find a solid piece of aluminum or something.
I'd agree that it's not ideal, but in my defense, he said rough...... If you could afford the marks, a couple of screws in the middle would minimize some of the flex.
No defense on your part necessary. It just wanted to warn that I had the thing. It was only 20 bucks so I did no lose any sleep over it. I will be yard sale material this summer. If rough is good enough an old fashoned chalk line will do the job.
Edited 12/28/2006 10:29 am ET by bones
Doug,
Try a piece of 8' or 10' long aluminum angle (like angle iron, only a LOT lighter). If you pick the piece carefully, you'll get one that's straight enough for accurate cuts; it also has good rigidity. Another benefit is that it's pretty cheap (at least in comparison to commercial sawing jigs, guides, and clamps) and available at any decent hardware store; probably available at the Borg, too.
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Yeah the aluminum idea may be the only way to go that does not cost a lot. As for the Borg i tend to go to the Borg Clone (Lowes) and I think they have them. I was thinking of putting that on the word for the jig vs just using it as is.
I still would like to see if anyone has used one of the other options such as the Fest saw or one of the panel cutter set ups.
Doug Meyer
James
Wow! 33 posts and running, and none of the trolls showed up. Must be on vacation on the dark side of the moon or something. Happy New Year!
Jeff
Jeff,
Yes, I too am impressed that the usual suspects ain't in here mucking about and wasting electrons with their tired nonsense.... (After all, the "magic" words have been mentioned, and they do seem to be ijit magnets.....)
(Now that we've said something, that'll jinx it...LOL)
And a Happy New Year to you, too!!
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 12/29/2006 12:48 pm by pzgren
The reason they are not on this thread is because they are giving me a run for my money over on the Ethics of Copy thread where it is getting ummm interesting.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
Nah, the suspects I have in mind fortunately have not been in either thread. Once they show up.....let's be polite and say, "There goes the neighborhood...."Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Maybee the idjits are on leave because we are talking about sheet goods, who's "tradition" only goes back a few years. I would have thought someone would insist on a hand saw.
ptu,
<<I would have thought someone would insist on a hand saw.>>
I'd thought about it -- more as a (Neanderthalic) joke than anything else -- but plywood & MDF are REALLY hard on hand saws...... ;-)Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
ptu,
What/who are "idjits"?
The idjits I refer to are the responders that take a fairly simple workshop question and turn the reply into a forum of how much more I know about this than anyone else, or airing knowledge for the sake of airing knowledge, and generally taking the question out of the workshop and putting it in the realm of infinite detail, philosophy, abstract theory, or a general ego boost.
I mean no offence to anyone, everyone is welcome to speak, and all my whines can have their place, but it is humorous to read some peoples need to pontificate.
OK, that sounds like about 75% of the people online at any given moment!
Edited 1/15/2007 7:41 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Jeff and James:Perhaps they are still on their involuntary sabbatical ;-).I have a 1/4 x 3 inch steel straight edge I inherited from my father that performs well. A newly purchased EZ guide has not yet been put into service.Cheers,Joe
Doug,
You asked about how to "rough cut" plywood. Do you mean to simply break a sheet down to a manageable size for the tablesaw? If so, I would question why you would need any sort of fancy or not so fancy guide at all. Put a line on the sheet and blast it with a circular saw with a sharp blade. I use saw horses with 2x stock running the long way between them to support the work.
This is the easiest and fastest way to rough down a sheet when precision isn't the issue. As far as making mistakes, no tool regardless of price or stature will remove the human element. Have you ever watched carpenters building a house? There isn't a saw guide for miles.
I know, I know- blasphemy! I just believe the simplest way is usually best.
Good luck,
-Paul
I had the same problem and I solved it by going to a local cabinet shop that had a programmable saw that held a full sheet of plywood and had two saws at right angles that could cut perfectly straight lines so I had them cut me a strip of 1/2" plywood 4" wide by 96" long and it is now a perfect straight edge that I clamp to a full sheet of plywood and using a hand held circular saw I cut the big sheet ofplywood to sizes that can be handled easily on the table saw.
Doug,
I have both a 50" as well as a 99" guide that I use to cut all plywood and MDF including the pricey oak veneers. My 99" is called a Tru-Grip N' Ripper, model GNR8 that I found at Western Tool & Supply in Cornellius, Oregon (West of Portland). The 99" as a little flex when clamped, particularly when using it on material thinner than 3/4". I bought it after my homemade version just didn't seem to do the job as well. I also added a zero clearance plate to the bottom of my PC circular saw. The combination of guide and zero clearance plate gives me flawless cuts.
I am really impressed with the Festool line and would have gone with their saw gear, assuming I could get past the cost.
-Mert
Chalkline.
Snap a chalkline and cut freehand.
You're going to recut on the TS anyway; why fuss over the rough cut?
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Hi Doug
Like yourself, I have no interest in cutting a 4 x 8 sheet on my table saw even if I could lift it up to the table. I have a Veritas "Power Tool Guide". It comes in two pieces (52" & 48") so you can handle any oversize sheets as you often see today. And I assure you having tried a few other guides before this one you do not have to deal with flexing using this system. I have to transport my material to my shop which is a hundred miles away, so everything has to rough cut before I head out and this tool has been the complete answer to this requirement.
I prefer another solution, I don't like lugging around 4x8 sheets. I have it rough cut before I bring it home. Every place I purchase makes a reasonable number of cuts for free, makes the whole process easier.
Check out the EZ Smart guide. Heavy duty aluminum guide, extendable, and designed for breaking down sheet goods. There's a base you mount on your circular saw that rides on the guide. The guide and base have antichip protection that makes for extremely smooth cuts. There are also add-ons that allow use of a router, extra clamps, a cutting table, and many other... but the basic saw guide is an excellent value IMO. Info is on their website eurekazone.com and lots of friendly help on their user forum.
If you search this forum for ez smart you'll find some long threads that heated up with people debating the merits of ez smart and other systems (kind of a Yankees - Red Sox thing with Festool it seems). Informative until they turn nasty.
I usually have a plan for what I'm building when I purchase plywood. I then have the lumberyard make one cut for me. This is not always a totally accurate cut but it breaks the sheet down to a manageable size that I can handle on the table saw. Then from the rough cut you can do your precise cut for the size panel you require.
At risk of invoking the wrath of the Gods (and others) my answer is:
Get a Festool circular saw (the ceaper one is fine) and 2 - 55" edge guides. You then will do FINISH cuts on plywood, not the rough cuts you refer to.
I buy rough lumber, then joint and thickness plane. On some material the edges are so un-true you could joint for an hour to end up with a straight 6' to 8' piece. I succombed to the lure of the Festool package and was awed at the quality of the edge. For the table top in the "ethics" post, I ran 17 degree cuts, 6' long, straight as as an arrow with a CIRCULAR SAW. I couldn'd believe it.
No more heavy lifting for me.
Frosty
I have heard good things about this saw. I will have to look into it. I may have to wait a while as I have spent enough of late (see the post on the new bench) but if you are will to fend off the pitchfork and torch guys that come after you for the Festtool I will help you while I fend off those after me for buying a work bench! :)
I will have to look into this a lot of people say these things work well. At the price of high end plywood now of days it may be cheep in the long run. It only takes a couple mistakes on a $125 plus piece of wood to pay for the saw.
I guess I am so used to looking at a C-saw as a rough cut tool I never thought of anything else (to may years around rough building construction)
As for the ethic post... well lets just leave that post alone for now (I am also in the middle of that fire)
Doug Meyer
Totally agree about doing FINISH CUTS with the Festool saw and guide rails. When I first started using the Festool saw and guide rail, I thought of it as a "rough cut" setup, but as I got better, it became a finish cutter!Also, with the Festool setup, I get chip-free cuts, which is especially welcome when I work with melamine.
I use a "shooting board" for cross cuts. It is the same as what another poster described as a cutting guide. This jig is very accurate. I have seen other systems in use, like the Festool, and they are not as fast or idiot proof as a shooting board. I assume that the Festool system will cut nicer, but for my use it wouldn't matter. I have a 100 inch long shooting board for ripping cuts, but I never use it. I prefer to use the saw. If you have a bench saw then a long shooting board would probably be a good idea, but if you have a contractor saw or better then I think that you would be better off using the the saw for rips.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I have a large cabinet saw, it just think it is a pain in the butt to do a long rip in a full sized sheet. first off you have to man handle it into place then you have to get the saw turned on while playing with the sheet. Then you need a ton of out feed support and the list goes on and on. Right now i do this but i do it with two peaple and it is not fun. So that is why i am looking at other options.
Doug Meyer
I use a piece of straight 3/4" stock glued and screwed to a piece of 1/4" Masonite for cross cuts as has been explained earlier in this post, I believe.For 8' cuts of 12" wide or less I made a jig that works like the guides that often come with circular saws but are too small for stability. I uses a piece of 1/4" plywood that mounts to the bottom of my saw with screws in holes that I drilled in the aluminum plate. Then I attach a strip about 3/4" square to that plywood base as far from the blade as the width of the cut I want, and I can move that strip where I want it.The additional size of the jig stabilizes the saw and the 10" or so strip is easier to guide along one factory edge than that little metal guide that came with the saw. Perfect every time.I suppose you could do the same thing with a plywood base to cut up to 24", but I have not made one that size.I think the reason this works so well is because when sawing you concentrate, with the left hand in my case, on the runner side of the jig and you don't have to watch where the saw is going.pins
I use my table saw, even if I'm solo in the shop. I have a fairly large outfeed table. It works quite well, especially for multiple cuts, as in bookcases like you mentioned you freqently do. I also have the unifence on an extended side table up to 50". I find it saves timemoney that way. A good blade is a must, also the surface. of the table extentions need to be slick. If you absolutly can't do it that way then try a homemade jig, they are easy to make.
Well, your getting lots of ideas, so I'll add mine as well. I am able to cut 8' sheets to working accuracy. I have a 9' x6"wood straight-edge, out of clear-grained Sitka Spruce, (you can make this out of plywood or whatever, I like it to be longer than my work, but it doesen't have to be) and 4 pieces of plywood about 10" long, and a skill saw. 2 pieces are exactly as wide as the sole of my saw to the inside edge of the blade, (13.1cm), and 2 pieces as exactly as wide as the sole to the outside edge of the blade,(13.35cm). Depending on which side of the line I want to cut on, I will lay one piece down against the cut line on either end, and then lay the straight edge against the other edge. Clamp the straight edge down, remove the small pieces, and make your cut.It takes way longer to explain it than it does to make the cut.
Doug, I've got that $20 jig also, and yeah the center joint is THE weak spot, but in order to get around that I grab a piece of any scrap(1x,2x) and butt it up against that center and clamp the opposite end. No flex and I get a good straight cut. If I don't have a pair of 2x's to run across my horses, I put one of my adjustable support rollers under the ply to keep it from bending downward. All cheap and effictive. I'd much rather be building something instead of spending hours building my umpteenth jig!! And take care of your dad, I worked every day for over 20 years with mine, He's been gone now for 22yrs. I still miss having him ask me If I really have s%*t for brains or just act that way? Funny what you wind up missing. Even though now my wife asks the very same i'ts just not the same. Both of yor have a Happy New Year.
We will try. One of the reasons I prefer not to build a jig is that I find that in order to make the jig really work it take a lot of time to make it very accurate. And this is time I would rather spend build a new end table or a table for my new TV. I got a 32" LCD and the cost of a wall mount that turns sideways (I can not mount it flat to the wall as it is in the corner of the room) is nuts. They want almost $300 for this thing. So I think I will build a unit to mount to the wall and hold the TV on top (big enough for the small stand) and then have space for the DVD player and the Sat receiver. And I think it will be a LOT cheaper then $300!
As for the old grumpy guy. Well they are hard to maintain. This one has a nasty little cold that has had him sleeping 20 out of 24 hours for the last 4 days and he just will NOT go see a doctor about it.
Doug Meyer
Try the C.R. Laurence catalog and look at the SEP96. It's a phenolic straight edge that the glass guys use. It works sweet as my shop straight edge. Not too expensive either.
For your high dollar plywood, you can glue a piece of plastic laminate to it protruding out from it the approximate width of your saw base and when you cut, you never contact--scratch--the veneer.
"Roger Staubach for President"
Hey, how about Harvey Martin!
lee valley makes and sells an excellent 100 inch cutting guide for sheet goods
i use one everyday as a pro cabinet maker
with the LV giuide, a really good blade in a good circ saw and a steady feed rate, i can cut melamine sheets and veneer plywoods flawlessly
Sounds good now the next questions, What is a good blade for a circ saw? I know good blades for the rest of them but I am not sure about the little circ. saw. I generally use it for rough work (2X and such and for that you just go with cheep and replaceable.
Doug Meyer
Doug, I use an inexpensive, (almost said cheap, because I thought it was when I bought it), 60-tooth carbide plywood blade from American Tool / Irwin. I think Amazon has them for under ten bucks, (I think mine came from Home-Desperate). It does a good job. My thought when I bought it was, at $10 try it, and if you don't like the cut, use it for studs. I bought it out of desperation, when I was working on some things for the kid's at the Ex's house. One of those Sunday things, nobody is open so you punt.
I used a 40 or 50-tooth carbide metal cutting blade before that. It cost around $90, and I was really happy on how well it did on sheet goods. Good cuts without chipping or tearing of the veneers. Unfortunately, I used it to cut some metal roofing, (the new playhouse), and it didn't do a decent job on plywood after that, (it was chipping T1-11 excessively).
I think Forest has a plywood blade in 7-1/4. It is in $100+ range. IIRC, it's more that the WW-II in 10-inch.
Tenryu has a 60-tooth plastic cutting blade that should work well in the $50 range.
I also have a Porter Cable "Saw Boss" 6-inch saw that does a good job with the 40-tooth blade.
personally i use a frued 40t atb blade
but from experience, a good quality newly sharpened blade will perform flawlessly in a well tuned well guided circular saw
by that i mean the shoe HAS to be flat, square and parallel to the blade and i mean perfectly
i have a variety of circ saws from an old cheapie for hacking to a top dollar unit as well tuned as any table saw in a cabinet shop and it gets treated as well as your finest bench plane
crosscutting a finely veneered panel requires two cuts
i set up the edge guide 5 inches from the final dimension(this being the offset of the blade from the shoe edge on my saw) and make my first cut about a 32 inch deep and then reset the depth to a full cut(about a 1/4 inch more than panel thickness)
this tecnique will give perfect edges on both faces of both pieces everytime
the biggie is a really well tuned saw and a sharp blade
in conclusion the circ saw does have its place in a fine cabinet shop, it just has to be treated like any other fine tool
OK I give, why does the two cut bit help? I mean I was under the impression that the reason one of them was not as nice as the other edge was because the blade was pulling up on one edge (the top with a circ saw) and this tended to splinter it a bit.
Doug Meyer
the first cut at about the thicknes of the veneer, prevents splintering of the veneer during the full cut
this the same action as a prescoring blade on a table saw
Hi Doug
Any 8 x 4 sheets of board, I cut with my trusty handsaw, a habit I got into just on 50 years ago, just make sure it is well supported, old habits die hard, ( NO I do mean Nuns)
Denny
Info and discussions about ez smart here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26
festool group here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FestoolOwnersGroup/
Ive been happy with my ez , good investment for me
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