Hello fellow woodworkers,
I have a basement shop in my home and have recently been considering upgrading my 1 hp single stage dust collector to a 2hp cyclone two stage machine. Any feedback regarding your experiences with this category of machines would be appreciated.
Nako
Replies
I just finished making my own from the plans on Bill Pentz's web site (the 18" diameter version). I'm using the blower unit from my HFDC temporarily, until I get around to making a 2 or 3 hp airfoil blower unit. I vented it through the casement window with 8" diameter insulated flex duct instead of rigid duct and a muffler - I needed to be able to open the panel over the window, plus flex was recommended as being as effective as a muffler. Some day I may also make a filter stack to recirculate the air, but it's not a priority.
So far, it's working just great. Much better, in fact, than the HFDC in it's original configuration, due in large part to the elimination of the bags (even had 1 micron aftermarket bags), increasing the inlet opening to the 9" of the cyclone (up from a nominal 5" dia), and increasing the duct size to 6". The original outlet adapter on the blower went from 4" x 6" square to just over 4.5" diameter - the 5" flex to the bags had to fit over it, so the wall thickness was almost 1/4", which choked the flow down there, too. My HFDC seems to have a smaller blower wheel than most, at only 9.85 inches diameter [250 mm], and it's about tapped out as far as air flow goes.
When I first tried it, just sitting on the floor with a plug in the bottom, it collected a bit of very fine dust flour in the bottom from the dust in the air, which in turn was likely kicked up by the air stream from the blower. That was good to see, since it clearly had to have been pulled from the air. I don't feel guilty about sending the exhaust out the window now. I've also sent the contents of a half-full Unisaw cabinet through it, accumulating since I stopped using the HFDC, and there were no signs of dust or chips on the window screen or surrounding area.
The motor was badly overloaded with no ductwork of any kind connected to it (~20A), but it's now running at 12A or less, depending on what's connected.
The Clear Vue is the same design, and since those who have it seem to like it, I figured I couldn't go wrong building my own from the same plans. Total cost, not counting the blower, was less than $80 - $60 for the 24 gauge sheetmetal, plus some caulk, pop rivets and sheetmetal screws. Next time I'll have them plasma cut the parts for $60, and maybe have them form and seam the cone and barrel.
http://i14.tinypic.com/47ts5c2.jpg
Edit: Corrected image link.
Be seeing you...
Edited 1/17/2007 5:35 pm ET by TKanzler
I read your description and saw the piture of your creation. Nice work! I am now seriously considing buildng my own machine. I am still leaning towards filtering rather than venting outside to conserve heating and cooling costs. I'm also very invested in building a machine that is as low noise as possible. Overall, I have learned quite a bit from the replies like your on this board. Thanks for the reply TKranzler and for introducing me to Bll's web site!
"I am now seriously considing buildng my own machine."
It was a lot of work, expecially since I'm not much of a tin-knocker, but any time in the shop is quality time.
"I am still leaning towards filtering rather than venting outside to conserve heating and cooling costs."
I went with venting outdoors to save money up front, since I was trying to do this on the cheap, and to get it going in the shortest possible time. The separation efficiency seems to be excellent so I don't worry about spewing dust on my neighbor's car. Since a better blower, which I have yet to build, will pull something approaching 1000 cfm at my lathe or TS, it would also change all the air in my shop in about 3 minutes, which makes for a chilly shop on cold days, or drippy pipes on humid ones.
A filter stack always was part of the plan, and the space to the left of the cyclone in my pic is reserved for it, with a selectable Y-connection, but for now I just need it to work so I can go back to butchering wood.
Since I'd rather spend the money on parts that I can't make, like an airfoil blower wheel, I'm making my own 45º take-offs from 26 gauge snap-lock duct. One 24" length ($6 maybe?) makes one 6x6x6x45º take-off. Takes me a couple of hours to make one, but I'm getting better at it - if I wanted to, I could probably make one in less than an hour (15 minutes if I was using PVC). You can also buy saddle-type take-offs that you screw or rivet onto an existing duct, but since the BORG doesn't sell them, I have to do it the hard way. The cheapest commercial Y-takeoffs I've seen are about $25 a pop via the internet.
"I'm also very invested in building a machine that is as low noise as possible."
Airfoil blower wheels supposedly are quieter than radial wheels. Problem with airfoil blowers is that they become unstable above a certain static pressure, when the blades begin to stall (aerodynamically speaking), so you either have to always have a blast gate open when it's running, or use a 'relief valve' of sorts that will bleed air into the system once the suction exceeds some value. I've heard that the Sheldons Engineering wheels don't like going above 7" SP, which is acceptable given the short, large diameter duct runs I have.
Even the 30 gauge snap-lock duct won't collapse at 7" - I know that because my HFDC tops out at 7" with the ducts completely blocked, and the lighter gauge sections I've used are just fine with that suction. The lighter stuff is cheaper, of course. I made a 6x6x5x45º take-off from 30 guage, but it's a little flimsy, so the rest are made from 26 gauge.
But the airfoil wheels do move a lot of air for a little horsepower (relatively speaking), and are quiet (relatively speaking), so I'm going to go that route when I get around to building a better blower.
I have more pics, including construction pics. If you want to see them, I can email them, or post the urls.Be seeing you...
Hi Kranzler,
Thanks for your reply, and yes I woud be interested in seeing any pictures you might have of the collector, duct work and dust hoods etc.
Sincerely,
Michael Nakoneshny
I sent you an email with the info.Be seeing you...
Thanks for the pictures Kanzler, looks like you did a great job of DIY! How does that dust hood on your lathe do for pick-up?
"Thanks for the pictures Kanzler, looks like you did a great job of DIY! How does that dust hood on your lathe do for pick-up?"
Thanks. If I was to make another one, I'd solder instead of pop rivet. Drilling and riveting is a lot of work, and the parts have to be sealed anyway, so soldering doesn't look like that much more work, if any, and the finished items would look better.
I just moved the unit to another corner of the shop, on the other end of the long wall (to the right, away from the window) to make it easier to get ducting on that wall. I'll have to run about 18 ft of 8" insulated flex to get to the window now, but I already had it, and it won't add much restriction with the wimpy 250mm blower I'm using (relatively low air speed in an 8" duct). I'll use a filter stack right next to the cyclone with a bigger blower when the time comes. Of course, I promptly dropped the existing blower from about 7' up while trying to squeeze it into a place it doesn't belong, but that's another story.
As far as lathe pickup goes, I'm not done monkeying with it yet, but so far it looks pretty good for sanding dust (I don't really expect much for chips flying over my shoulder). I'll probably go to a pair of 6" tees at the end of the run (the lathe will now be the end of the 6" main) each with a register boot flared open. I'm not worried about the addtional restriction of using tee's instead of wyes for this one location, especially since I can open two at once, and they're the full 6". I also need to keep the takeoff as compact as I can, since I have my lathe tools on the wall and would prefer to keep the lathe as close to the wall as possible - wyes would also require a 45º sweep, which adds depth.
I've been thinking about perhaps making a sheetmetal or plywood hood with the ability to move a couple of covers to limit the opening size and localize it to the work area, which will also increase the air speed in that area. I'm sure this will be an ongoing effort.
I still need to build a better blower, and a filter stack, but for now I need to finish the duct run, get an overhead guard with DC connection on the saw, and get back to butchering wood.Be seeing you...
Sounds like your system will be really effective when you get a bigger blower! One of the guys in the Clear Vue site Gallery had a nice shroud on his lathe with hinged wings that looked like a good solution. I'm working right now, but when I get a chance later tonight or tomorrow I'll try to look for it and send you the link, or let me know if you find it before I do.
You may have more trouble with clogging using tees. The ability of air to carry things is a function of the velocity. In a tee, it comes pretty close to a dead stop, plus the material tends to slam into the side as it enters.
I'm not worried about clogging, as the flared inlet is right on the 6" leg of the 6" run, with the 'hood' opening only a few inches from the main trunk line. I may use another one, too, right next to it (two tees in a row) to make a wide 'hood'. This is only for sanding dust, and with 1000 cfm or more between the two of them, there's plenty of air flow for light dust (~2500 ft/min for 500 cfm through each 6" opening if both are used).
I could also use a 4-section 90, which sticks out the same distance from the wall as the leg of a tee, but I wanted to keep the end available for expansion if needed, like adding a floor sweep or something.Be seeing you...
Go to the Onieda website and buy a cyclone without the motor just order the cyclone the 12 inch tube and the small dust drum. Take your 1 hp blower and mount it on top of the cyclone. Take your Filter Bag and use a big hose clamp to make the filter part on the blower. Cheapest way to get by. You could upgrade to a cannister filter after a while. I did this but used a 1.5 hp delta blower it works great I have about 250.00 into the cyclone and collecter drum.
Too late. I already built my own. I have less than $100 into it, including the 8" insulated flex and trash can.Be seeing you...
It's noisey! I have a 2 HP Woodsucker and have tried various ways to dampen the noise with a few more to try. I would suggest asking around for ways to sound proof the basement and get a plan for that before buying the cyclone.
It is also very tall. Fortunately I have a 13 course basement so the ceilings are 8 ft. This particular model has the motor mounted on top and even with the 8ft. ceilings the collection barrel under the cyclone is limited in height to about 28".
I bought it with the intention of building a shop and putting it outside the shop in a separate enclosed area (with the compressor), but have to wait until we are sure where we will end up in retirement.
In general, plan carefully since that is a big investment in sound proofing, the cyclone and the duct work. I often think a small moveable 1 1/2 HP with flex tubing would have been a better short term option.
John,
I just finished assembling the Clearview cyclone with the 5 hp motor and 15" impellor. With this large of an impellor, I had some serious concerns over the amount of noise that it would create. I followed all the suggestions for noise control at Bill Pentz's site (thanks Bill!). -- The new unit puts out less noise than my previous collector, the portable Jet 650. I am certain that it throws off considerably less sound than my power tools. I used the following steps to reduce the sound output:
* PVC sewer pipe (instead of metal)
* plastic strap hangers
* rubber flex connector at the intake
* 12' foot of flexible 10" HVAC duct on the exhaust
Several people have noted that flexible duct is almost as effective as a muffler, especially with a 10 or 12 foot length. So I put the filter stack about 10 foot away from the cylcone, and connected with the flex duct. Also, put a couple of 45 degree turns in the flex duct to further reduce the sound. Thought about using some 90's, but was concerned that this might have some negative effects on the throughput.
How much time did you need to assemble the Clearview?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Over a week, but most of that time was spent on the ductwork. I re-worked most of the runs two or three times. I've got a small shop, and I changed my mind several times on the best machine placement.
Thanks. How much overhead clearance did you need?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I have 8' ceilings. The cyclone was a good fit using a 20 gal. trash can.
Hi John,
Good advise on the noise issue. I did have the forsight to build my basement shop with acoustic insulation in the ceiling joists and double layer of drywals with resilient channel. Noise transmission to the living area above is surprisingly little. I do however want to minimize noise in the shop as well if only for my own comfort and hearing health over the longer term.
How is the Woodsucker on the CFM side of performance and what type of ducting did you use?
For many years I used a 1 1/2HP conventional DC (Penn State). It did what I then considered a "great job". Two weeks ago I replaced it with a 2 HP Oneida Cyclone Super Dust Gorilla.
It is purely subjective, but I feel the air is cleaner now! But -
It is high - 90" approx.
It is HEAVY! (Did I say it is heavy?) It takes two people to install. But heavy means quality.
It seems to be somewhat noisier - but I'm not really sure.
I am really happy I made the switch.
Frosty
J, Was it worth it? I'm debating between the Delta 50-850A with the cartridge filter ($550) and the Oneida that you have. I have 92" to spare, but the Oneida price gets north of $1,000 pretty quiclky. I'm really just a weekend warrior, but I've noticed that my planer and joinder can really produce the chips and airborne dust.
Hi Frosty,
Sounds like it was heavy, but did you notice improvement in air flow with your Oneida SDG? I've heard some people complain about assembly difficulties with some brands of DC. How was your experience?
Greetings Nako!I have just installed the 2HP Super Gorilla (same as Frosty's I think). It's really easy to put together; I didn't spring the extra $150 for the floor stand and used the wall mount. While it is heavy you can install it yourself if you do it in pieces.I need a few minor duct work aditions before it's fully operational.Hastings
I have the same Oneida cyclone that I installed myself last spring. Still sorting out the ductwork, but so far it's phenominal!
Good to hear that you are ver satisfied. What type of duct work are you using?
I'm using a combination of metal spiral ducting & the flex hose. the metal does all the ceiling runs and is attached with rubber mounted hangers.
As far as noise, I put the cyclone in it's own insulated closet so the noise in the shop is minimal.
Thanks Hastings,
What type of ducting are you planning to use? Also, very interested to hear about CFM and decibel preformance when you get your system hooked-up. Good luck and have fun makin some saw dust.
Nako:I bought galvanized ductwork from Oneida. (It has the crimped ends; so none of the "fancy" clips and easy-locking joints. It goes together pretty easily but I don't think as neatly as some of the other, more expensive pipe. My money went into the tools!). I have 3 outlets with blast gates, a 6" for a Felder Combination Machine, a 5" for a Laguna 16" Bandsaw and a 4" for chop saw and other benchtop tools. I also have a small shop so the whole run is only 15'. The reducers are at the machine outlet so the Felder outlet is 120mm, and the BS is 4".I am not sure I understand the concern with DC noise in particar, since any other WW machine is probably much noisier than the DC (at least the Super Gorilla), what would be the point in having a silent (or quiet) collector? I maybe wrong, but I don't think that noise levels from various sources is additive. In other words if the noisest machine was, say 120 Db, then anything else running that is less than that would not make much difference to the overall sound level. In any event, one must wear ear defenders! (There's another interesting thread running presently on this very topic).Even, as I write this, I have a nagging suspicion that I might be way off on the noise stuff! hopefully someone will correct me.Will have to wait a week or so before I can speak to the suction.Hastings
I got the Oneida Super Gorilla as well and am very satisifed with it.
I bought most of the ductwork from a local HVAC supplier. Much cheaper, and you don't have to pay for shipping. I got the metal gates from Lee Valley. Picked up a wireless remote control from Busy Bee (like Northern Tool up here).
You have to use spiral ducting and seamless fittings for air resistance. Plus regular furnace ducts will collapse from the air pressure if you start the DC with all the gates closed.
My neighbour worked for a plastics company and she got me a bunch of sort of heavy duty cardboard barrels for dust.
Noise isn't a big problem, but you sure know when it is on ...
Thanks for the reply Piccioni and the advice on the ducting. I'm just getting started looking into PVC ducting because of ease of assembly and that it is slightly quieter than metal, but have heard that the cost for 6" is fairly expensive. I'll compare that to spiral duct before I decide.
What made you decide on the Oneida Super Gorrilla over other models?
I couldn't find large diameter (6" and 7") ducting in plastic, and I'm glad I didn't
I used a small about of 1 1/2" for my router table, and my hair rises when I get near it, plus I often get nasty shocks from the statics. So I got some small dia spiral and I'll replace it.
I've heard some static was generated, but never quite that much!
Nako, QuickstepYes! It was worth it. I have noticed increased airflow - I have a home-made louver affair to catch dust from my RAS - it really catchs all the stuff now. The unit was easy to assemble; very good directions and everything fit just right. I should have had those two people who installed theirs "alone" to help me. Guess I'm not as strong as I was, or want to be.The unit came with a "free" Long Ranger remote start-stop controller. A good item but I use an EcoGate controller from Penn State Industries. Wouldn't be without it.For those who remember a previous post I found I can install a MANUAL start/stop switch with Thermal Overload protection. I will leave in "On" and let the Ecogate control the cyclone.Frosty
nako, I started out in 1967 in a single car garage shop with a shop vac to clean up the bench and floor and a RAS with a ply box with louvers attached to the "OLD" Eureka house vac that I won for the shop when I bought SHMBO a new Electrolux for the house. Years later I had a contractors saw, a jointer and it was the 13" planner that got me up to my a$$ in wood shavings in 15 min. Solution? A 1hp. Sears two bagger at the scratch and dent sale for less than $200 with a 4" flex hose and a galvanized trash can with a collection lid. Still too much very fine dust in the air as I set up my retirement (1,100 sq.ft.) shop.
Solution, a 3 hp. JDS cyclone and two of their er-750 air cleaners for $1,388 picked up from a dealer. 8" main pipe and enough suction to grab the dandruff off a fly from 200 miles away and it fits well under my 7' 10" over head with a full size barrel. underneath. I am done. Paddy
Hey PADDYDAHAT,
You've come a long way baby! And indeed it sounds like you're all set with that new system. I still use the central vac to give the shop floor, benches and cabinets a good clean every now and then. I'm in the process of researching the upgrade from my current 1hp bag style DC so your review is helpfull. How is the noise on that JDS?
nako, mine will not run till I get the electric done in Mar. , but the two that I saw running caused me no concern. I f I keep the sears two bagger I will up grade to an upper canister, but I think I found a way to use the JDS on the other side of the shop's center line main beam, more news at 11:00. Cheers, Paddy
Do any of you know a source for a 2hp blower? After reading this thread, I'm thinking about building my own, but can't seem to find a blower without buying the whole dust collector. I'm surprised, but there aren't any on eBay.
Quickstep,
Take a look at the Clear Vue web site. They sell a 14" material impeler that would probably be a 2hp size.
Thanks Nako. I had a look at the impellers fom ClearVue. I was looking for something that was complete. I'd rather minimize the amount of stuff I need to build.
Quickstep, you should check with Clear Vue about that because I believe that you probably can order the blower assembly as a seperate unit. Good luck.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled