Replies

1. 
   WayneL5 | Jun 27, 2005 01:53am | #1

   The Oneida units are good because they combine a cyclone, which drops out the heavy dust and chips, with a cartridge filter, which filters out the fine micron dust which is the part of the dust which is actually harmful.  A cyclone unit alone will separate out the heavy dust, but I don't believe they will remove the fine dust.  Since the fine dust is the harmful stuff, that makes a cyclone only system a poor choice.

   I had no air cleaner in my shop but the Oneida unit quite completely cleaned the air it sucked in.  The major problem was that many tools are not made for dust collection so a lot of the dust was not captured by the hood in the first place.  The table saw and chop saw were particularly bad to capture all the dust from.  The planer and jointer worked like a charm.

   If I hadn't sold the house and shop due to a job move, I probably would have bought an air cleaner eventually.

1. 
   duke | Jun 28, 2005 03:51am | #7

   Thanks for your information concerning your experience with the Oneida cyclone systems.  Your problem with the table saw and miter saw will also present a problem for me as well.  Have you been able to set up a new shop since moving?

1. 
   WayneL5 | Jun 28, 2005 04:59am | #10

   Thank you.  I have not been yet set up my shop.  Been spending extra time on the job, fixing the landscaping, and renovating bathrooms at church.  Possibly this winter, though.

2. 
   GHR | Jun 27, 2005 05:23am | #2

   Web pages are not the best source of information.

   According to professional sources the only way to get rid of the submicron particles is to exhaust them to the outside.

3. 
   81treehouse | Jun 27, 2005 05:31am | #3

   For what it is worth...

   Put a cyclone in a small separate room (6x6?), cut out a square hole in the door and mount filter holders like on a HVAC system.    Lets out the exhasut air.  The door filters are cheap for that finer dust.  Ceiling mounted air cleaner(s) with electrostatic filters complete the shop needs except for ducting.

   Any good vac such as a ShopVac with a sheetrock dust bag for portable sanders, etc.

   This is my setup and I have almost no shop dust.  I do run the ceiling air cleaners (2 Deltas) for at least an hour after I leave the shop -- more if I have done a lot of sanding.

   Works for me on my budget.

    

    

   A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
1. 
   duke | Jun 28, 2005 03:55am | #8

   Thanks for describing for me your personal solution to dust control in your shop.  The air cleaners seem to be a necessity to pick up any left over dust that is not captured at the source.  It will still be a few more years before I can retire and spend more time in the shop!

4. 
   AlanWS | Jun 27, 2005 05:45am | #4

   A cyclone makes a cartridge filter more practical by removing most of the stuff first, so the cartridge doesn't get clogged and is able to retain its permeability as it removes small stuff. It's also more convenient to empty a cyclone than an ordinary DC. Duct costs more than you might think. The power needed to collect sufficient air volume at each tool depends on the duct setup.

1. 
   duke | Jun 28, 2005 03:59am | #9

   Thanks Alan. I'll look into the duct/fittings to see what the exact cost will be so I can plan accordingly.

5. 
   mikegagne | Jun 27, 2005 08:06am | #5

   Duke, I have a jet canister type and you will still need an air cleaner if not a separate room for the DC. They remove the dust from the machines and hold the big pieces. The fines still make it into the air. Oneida's system which will be in my new 2500 square foot shop (currently under construction), removes a much greater percentage of all the dust and depending on how it is located in your work space you will probably want the air cleaner also depending on what woods you use. Aloha, mike

1. 
   duke | Jun 28, 2005 03:48am | #6

   Thanks for you input and confirming that air cleaners will be necessary as well.  Good luck with your new shop, the space sounds great!

6. 
   Telemike | Jun 28, 2005 07:51am | #11

   The cyclone separates out the heavy stuff before it goes into the dust collector. Usually, the air and dust goes through the fan housing and the impeller before going to the bags. A bigger chip or a small offcut can jam your impeller and bend the motor shaft.

   I did this early on with my 2 HP grizzley DC. Now, when it stops, I can hear it grunch slighly due to the bent shaft. I had to dismantle the fan and chip away at a little plywood offcut to get the DC working again.

   Like others have said, I solved the fine dust problem by adding a closet to the side of the garage and put the DC and the air compressor in it. Not only is the air a lot cleaner, the workspace is much quieter and more pleasant.

1. 
   duke | Jun 28, 2005 02:51pm | #12

   Thanks for the input.  I'm not sure if I can add an outside closet to my existing basement shop but it is certainly something worth considering.

7. 
   dukeone | Jun 28, 2005 04:16pm | #13

   Has anyone used a "built in whole house vacuum" for all or part of their d/c system? They can exhaust outside but then you have to make provision for make up air as I imagine any system exhausting outside would require. KDM

   Kenneth Duke Masters
   The Bill of Rights
   December 15 1791
   NRA Endowment Member
   LEAA Life Member
   CRPA Member
1. 
   walker910 | Jun 28, 2005 04:34pm | #14

   When I installed my dust collection system, I was working with a ceiling height that I didn't think would allow a cyclone.  Instead, I went with the Jet 220v cannister unit, with 6" ducting to each station--very short runs.  It wasn't until after the entire system was up and running that I came across Gary MacIntyre's cyclone (http://www.cycloneseparator.com/201.html) . . .  that would just fit in my basement.  I told myself that, the first chance I got, I was going to incorporate that cyclone into my system.  But I've had the new system running for several months now, and haven't felt the need for the addition.  But if you're set on adding a cyclone, give that site a try. 

   I would certainly add a ceiling unit to your system, though.  I built my own around the JDF electrostatic and bag filters, and haven't coughed in months!

   Bob

2. 
   WayneL5 | Jun 29, 2005 04:25am | #15

   It isn't a good idea to do so.  The vacuums don't pull enough cfm.

   Discharging outdoors is fine for the small amount of air a central vacuum uses, and the few minutes a week it is on.  But a shop dust collector will move lots of air and will be on for hours, wasting the energy to heat and cool your home.

1. 
   dukeone | Jun 29, 2005 05:32am | #16

   The heating / cooling loss was something I didn't think about. Any large cfm unit exhausting outdoors would sure play havoc with your HVAC, not to mention the utility bill. KDMKenneth Duke Masters
   The Bill of Rights
   December 15 1791
   NRA Endowment Member
   LEAA Life Member
   CRPA Member

1. 
   MarkRD | Jun 29, 2005 05:58am | #17

   I posted a question in ToolTalk about "venting outside" - it generated a long discussion and some really valuable input....In short, don't do it if you have a furnace in the same space (like my shop) - you could end up drawing exhaust fumes back down the chimney.MarkSearch Tool Talk for "Venting outside"

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

1. 
   JerryL | Jun 29, 2005 08:28pm | #18

   If you have a canister connected to a piped system do you still need an ambient air cleaner? 

   No matter what...get the air cleaner.

   I have a Woodtek double bagger that is in the center sidewall of my garage shop. I thought it did a great job but I would get dust coming under the door between the garage and the basement. This same dust collector is made for many vendors.

   I wear a face mask when ever I plane or saw and then remove it after turning off the equipment.

   Several months ago I installed the better Delta Air Handler/Cleaner and mounted it on the ceiling a few feet from the 2 bagger.

   Ran a pile of epe decking through my planer then through my table saw one weekend. 2 bagger on when I run the machines. I just started using the Air Filter and checking the internal filter bag to see how long it would take before I needed to do something to it. 

   This particular filter has what looks like three troughs sewn side by side to increase the surface area. The filter bag is approx 24" long by 8" wide by maybe 8" deep. After the epe weekend the dust it collected was the volume about 3" dia x 24" long in the bottom of the filter. I could not believe it. I left it on as long as I was in the shop. That means the top bag of the two bagger was pushing dust through the fabric and the air cleaner was catching it. I used to breath that stuff???

   The air cleaner also cut down on how much came under the basement/garage door.   

   I do not exhaust outdoors. But if I did...

   You will be pulling a negative pressure of the house which at first sounds like a good idea because dust won't get to the other rooms. The air has to get replaced by something and the flue or chimney is the undesirable but most likely source.

   As an aside, To protect me from the heating system from pulling a negative pressure, I installed a fresh air supply kit on my oil burner hot water heating system. This is a galvanized boot kit that fits over the inlet and fuel pump so that house air doesn't enter or leave the burner. Run 4" galv sheetmetal pipe from the boot to a vent hood that goes out the basement wall.

   I also have a Ridgid shop vac but find that it is more problems than it is worth because the filter fills so fast. I have spares but still time consuming to play with. The hose is not that long and flexible to attach to tools. Noise is awful even with ear protection. Looking at the Fein vac, maybe.

   Jerry

    

    

    

    

2. 
   Telemike | Jun 30, 2005 08:03am | #20

   I'm a real fan of exhausting outside, but I have to agree with Jerry. My shop is in a detached garage that leaks air through all kinds of cracks and openings. It's not sucking air from my house.If a DC sucks air from the house and exhausts it outside, it can draw air containing CO from a chimney or wood stove and pose a serious and immediate threat to everyone inside.I use wood heat inside the garage, but the shop leaks in so many places that there's no backdraft, even with the DC running. I could only get away with this in central California or some other place with pretty warm winters!

8. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 29, 2005 11:51pm | #19

   Those 'cyclone' sort of Trash cans ahead of the Canister work pretty well and NOT that expensive... Just the lid and a metal trash can that gets MOST of the goop!

9. 
   daveinnh | Jul 05, 2005 04:43am | #21

   Duke:

   I equipped a new shop (to mill trim & finish a new house) recently.  I have Delta Unisaw, Delta 13" planer, DJ-20 jointer and BenchDog router table.  For dust collection I have a Penn State cyclone and Fein Mini-Turbo vacuum (no ambient air filter).

   The cyclone inhales most of the dust - notable exception is MDF across the Unisaw. I have the Fein Mini-Turbo to cleanup (house -building then shop dust because of reviews and relatively low noise).  Only very minor dust over flat surfaces from 20 weeks.

   I'd buy the Fein again (but get the cheaper paper bags from your local hardware store).  The Penn State unit performs well (kinda loud); their customer service was B-grade and assembly was somewhat challenging; not A-grade as I read from happy Oneida buyers. But they were much cheaper than Oneida.  However, I've seen ads from Oneida that they have a smaller unit than may fit your needs.

    

    

1. 
   duke | Jul 05, 2005 05:01am | #22

   Thanks for your reply.  Your first hand experience with the cyclone system is what I was looking for.  I'm glad to hear that the Fein is performing well for you because I am also looking to purchase a Fein or Porter Cable vacuum to hook up to my sanders.  I will also take into consideration your candid evaluation of the set up and noise level of the PS system versus the Oneida when I finally make a decision.  Thanks again.

   Duke