Has anyone had experience using both – for example starting out with the garbage can version, then switching to a real cyclone?
I’m trying to decide if it is worth the extra money.
Small home shop, one tool at a time environment.
Thanks,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Replies
Mark,
Garbage can separators and cyclone (built in 2-stage DC's) do the same thing. Cyclones are just DC's with built in separators that are a bit fancier. Cyclones are far more expensive and huge by comparison to a single stage DC with separator.
Do you need something mobile? Cyclones are not mobile. Do you have the ceiling height to house a cyclone DC? I think 8' is about the smallest one out there. The other area you may have trouble with is running large pipe and trying to use one of the trash can separators. Most of the trash can separator lids are setup for 4" pipe. If you run larger duct work than that (and if you run duct work you should seriously consider doing just that) you may have to make your own separator lid.
Are Cyclones worth the additional money over a an appropriately sized single stage DC and an add on separator? All other things equal, probably not. They can both deliver equally good results. The Cyclones require significant more cash outlay initially while you can build an equally capable single stage DC into a 2-stage system over time. Just make sure you size the DC (fan curve not advertised max CFM) correctly for your shop and you'll be ok.
Take a look at Bill Pentz's site for additional DC info.
--Rob
Mark,
My experience is not as Mark reports. The loss of CFM using the garbage can seperator is signifficant compared to a cyclone of equal CFM. The efficiency is lost due to the seperation and air turbulance occuring before the impeller rather than after the impleler. My garbage can system on my 1.5 hp bag collector would collect chip from most of the tools, but not the finer dust. It could not keep up when planing boards more than 7 or 8 inches in width unless I bypassed the garbage can. So, I guess it just depends on your objectives regarding the level of dust collection and your budget. If you go the garbage can route, line the inside of the "cyclone" lid with adhesive-backed foam strips to cretae a better seal where it meets the garbage can. Otherwise, the air leak will be signifficant.
Doug
Doug,
What size ports did your "trash can" separator have on it? If the ports on the "trash can" separator are the same as those found on a cyclone, I'd be surprised to see the cyclone producing less resistance. Just curious.
Thanks,
--Rob
Rob,
The old trash can seperator lid had 4" OD ports. My 2 HP cyclone DC now has a 7" main reducing to 6 and then 5 over the entire run. While I don't profess to have a great deal of knowledge on the subject but I believe the seperator in front of the intake is far less efficient that if placed after the impeller, as is the case with true cyclones.
Disconnect the trash can seperator and reconnect directly to your DC and then feel the difference at the port on the tool. You will notice a significant loss of CFM.
Doug
I don't profess to understand all the dynamics of air flow but in general, the numbers I've seen are that you can expect about 2"-3" of water column increase with a trash can separator while a cyclone will run between 3"-5" of water column. Now this may be under the assumption that both are in front of the impeller (I don't know).
I'm not sure how your setup is, but on my Cyclone (it's an Oneida and I do consider it a "true" cyclone), the separator is still in front of the impeller. Perhaps more turbulent (have no way of know this myself) but certainly eliminates the chance for debris to strike the impeller (no worries about sparks in the dust bin). This is important for me since I plan on having floor sweeps and there could be the stray nail or screw swept in.
I think running a 4" opening on a separator versus the 7" on your cyclone is probably the real story here. I have no doubt a cyclone running a 7" inlet will have less resistance (given a similar sized motor/blower) than a 4" opening regardless of its location to the impeller.
--Rob
Edited 3/24/2005 9:53 am ET by Rob
Rob,
I also have the 2hp Oneida cyclone but I used to have the DC and trash can separator setup that is the subject of this thread. My point is that the design of the trash can separator, in series with the DC, combined with the lower efficiency of the bag systems, causes a tremendous loss in efficiency for dust removal as opposed to chip removal.
On my 15" planer, which mainly produces chips, a 5" drop to the 4" duct hood port has proven more that adequate. The line is very close to the main 6" transitioning to 7" main line so there is very little loss at this point. The RAS is 5" all the way to handle the large volume of dust. The TS has a 5" drop and port at the base running off of the 6" main and a 3" hose to a 2.5" port for the overhead dust guard. I needed to add the port to be able to control the air flow since it turns out a 3" line is way more than was necessary and reduced the flow to the underside of the TS cabinet. For the 25" dual head drum sander, I found the 5" drop was sufficient although I'm considering modifying this to twin 4" drops since I vary the position of the board each time I run them through. The router table has 2-3" ports and the BS has a 4" port.
The difference between my 1.5 hp bag system and 4" lines and the 2 hp cyclone with a properly designed air handling design is amazing. The Oneida folks were great at working with on the design and after about 6 iterations, I am very please with their product and service.
Doug
Edited 3/24/2005 3:08 pm ET by Doug
I expect you did see an amazing difference. Those two systems are night and day in performance numbers. That Oneida probably produces 3 times the amount of real-world CFM than the single stage. But that is not for lack of horse power. That's likely due to the very small impellor the 1.5hp DC was using. I think that Oneida is spinning a 13.5" or so curved impellor. Probably a good 1 - 2" bigger than the single stage.
I don't consider single stage DCs with trash can as inefficient when compared to cyclones. They both result in approximately the same amount of additional SP. But we need to compare similar systems. The Oneida versus the 1.5hp single stage just shows how much additional air flow a big impellor DC can move versus a smaller one. That doesn't indicate efficiency in delivered CFM though. Perhaps the biggest difference is that cyclones are built and sized for the additional resistance while single stage DCs are not. So by adding a separator to a single stage DC, caution needs to be exercised by folks to not introduce too much resistance to their system.
The separation of dust from chips may also be infavor of the cyclone versus home built separators. So if that is the efficiency you refer to then I agree that cyclones are probably able to better separate (down to a small chip) than a "trash can" separator.
--Rob
I think you're asking about the lid; if so, I have both. The home made version is to attach a 4" dryer hose from my 22124 to one can and the other is a Lee Valley Cyclone lid to connect the other 2.5" hoses to another can. One vac is 6.5 hp and is attached to the home made lid. The cyclone design is such that my 6.5 hp vac will completely collaspe the plastic can (I like the cans with built-in wheels) in less than 30 secs. The flex dryer hose takes up the vacumn shock even though it'll pull the lid in on startup, but the pressure differential in port size prevents collapse. The cyclone lid ports are both 2.5" and was somewhat awkard and self-defeating to hook up a 4" hose, that's why the home made version. A 2 hp vac is attached to the cyclone lid. Here's some pix.
Hey Joe,
I have 2 of the same vacs. I built my collectors out of a 8 gal pool chlorine buckets. Very heavy duty walls and lids. Connected to my 22124(love that saw) does a great job and works great on my 13in planer, 6in jointer and 14in BS.
Want a better DC system some day, but this works great for me now.
My 2 cents
Jimmy
as always I wish you enough
Shop vacs in such a configuration work well on machines with decent hood designs. If you try to use a shop vac for say a MS hood or TS (without a blade hugging hood), you'll find that the small CFM pulled by the shop vac (less than 200) doesn't work very well (if at all). That's when the bigger DCs and CFMs come into play.
I used a shop vac for many years and it worked well for the tools you mentioned. The router table, ROS, and free hand routers also worked very well with the shop vac. The shop vac was basically useless when attached to the TS though and I saw significant improvements in dust collection at the BS, jointer, and planer over the shop vac. The shop vac and DC are definately complimentary dust collection tools. I do wish I had run a separator on my shop vac though. Boy did that planer fill the vac up fast! :-)
--Rob
No doubt you are correct Rob. Like I said I will have a good DC system one day, just for now I'll have to get by with what I got.
And yes those vacs filled fast before I conjured up the collectors. Just makes it easier to dump. And they are soooo loud! You get the planer going on some heart pine, oak etc and the vac's running you better be wearing muffs or plugs!
Hope to have a 1 1/2 to 2 hp system by this time next year.
Have a good one.
Jimmy
as always I wish you enough
Has anyone had experience using both - for example starting out with the garbage can version, then switching to a real cyclone?
OI! I just use the 30 gallon trash can thing.. Works OK by me.. 30 dollar metal trash can verses $600.. Geeee No contest unless you do it all day long.. If you work ALL day get the $600 thing..
Thanks a sensible answer if I've ever heard one.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I like WillGeorge's advice from an economic perspective and I live by it even though retired with all the shop time I want. I just installed a 3HP collector using a $15 metal trash can with lid having 4" ports. I really need two cans and lids or improved plumbing. (I used 4" PVC drain pipe.) A problem with my present system is that too little dust collects in the can, too much goes into the collector bag. The single can nearly collapses also. A friend suggested using a paper barrel which is taller and making a lid with exit port larger than entrance port. Seems logical. A device to deflect dust downward within the can seems a logical addition also. Highland Hardware has a lid to which an elbow can be added for that purpose. They used to have a kit with barrel, lid and elbow. If you haven't bought yet, consider HH. The separator lids I have won't fit just any garbage can either. So, buy the can after the lid is in your hands. Numerous cans were left at my house as I bought it yet I had to buy a new one for the separater lid.
Use this info if you can. Maybe it is worth the price.
RoRo
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