Hi Folks,
Well it’s time to start getting stuff together for another project. This one may take a while cause I’ve had a difficult time just finding plans for one. So far no good!
Rob Millard was kind enough to point me to The Encyclopedia of Furniture Making – Joyce that has info. on one but haven’t seen it yet.
In looking at several examples I suspect that the place to start might be with the cylinder as it will have an effect on the sizing of the piece. If any of you folks have additional info./suggestions they would be most appreciated.
Also, it seems to me that there are a lot of skills that would be put to work in order to make one. Construction of the cylinder, veneering, making the tracks for it along with most of the joinery for this piece.
To be the home of my FWW collection!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/11/2008 11:53 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Replies
Here's a couple pics if you haven't seen one before.
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This one was on eBay a while back. If I remember correctly the min. bid was $37,500 USD!
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Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
BOB
Take me about 44 years to do that! GREAT WORK! I for one love it .. You'r are a Craftsman OR BETTER! OK, A Master!
Serious I LOVE IT!
Bob forgit' the plans.. OK if you have some but do not follow exactally!
GO with what you thinks.. Looks nice!
Hi Will,
I, like you, can sometimes make pieces by the seat of my pants and to some extent may have to with this one as plans seem to be non-existant. All indications lead me to believe that the cylinder is the key.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Here is a short article about the construction of a federal fall-front secretary, it talks a little about how the maker, William Thomas, constructed the cylinder.
http://www.furnituremasters.org/moreby.cfm?ID=21
Quite a beautiful and challenging project. Good luck. Cal
Thanks Cal,
Resource that's in my own backyard! I have contacted them for any information they might have. Sure would be great to make a piece with one of the masters, eh?
Based on the following it seems my emphasis on the cylinder portion is on the money: The greatest challenge of the cylinder-fall is its lid -- when made properly, it should slide back into the desk at the touch of a fingertip. But unlike the lid of a roll-top, it is all one rigid piece, so it's fiendishly difficult to make -- any warps or irregularities could upset the arc and prevent the lid from sliding. Because of this difficulty, only a handful of cylinder-falls were ever made.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Cal,
Got email from Bill Thomas about the desk and he offered to help - great news. Thanks for the link and when I got there I knew I'd been there before. Think I'll join as they have lots of folks fairly closeby.
Thanks again,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob:
I think you have discovered a most wonderful way to increase your Knots pecking order and standing.
Just announce your next project with accompanying photographs and it's almost like putting the completed piece in the Gallery section.
While I don't think for a second that is your intention - I just think you stumbled upon this brilliant approach.
Now I just need to find a photo of that brass inlay, rosewood sofa table that I'm about to start contemplating.
Yours in admiration.
Hastings
PS That secretaire looks like a very neat project - wish I could pull that off.
Hastings,
I'm sure you know that would never work in here with all these talented folks.
That secretaire looks like a very neat project - wish I could pull that off.
Aww, cmon man' you can do it. I look at it as another of lifes challenges. Some day that could be my downfall - I LOVE a challenge!
You know, I've wanted to build a secretarie for several years now and have looked at quite a number of different styles. When I stumbled on the cylinder type it simply blew me away. I imediately knew that's the one I wanted to build.
Whether I can actually pull it off remains to be seen but I am confident. Guess you have to be. Seems like they aren't that common and yet several folks in here have related their sitings/experiences with them.
Thanks for the vote of confidence; I'm sure I will need it.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
It looks like your in for a great time. Good Project.
My family had one and it had two "secret compartments in the gallery. I would hide my treasures in them. Lead soldiers et al.
If I remember correctly there was a hand hammered metal rocker mechanism, much like a ships rudder transfer or similar to a sextant. The pivot was hidden in side casings joining just to the side at the point where the gallery started and the radial part was fixed to the cylinder. The transition to the mechanism was through a matching open radial riding slot, similar to the captured version you see in a roll top desk. The stiles themselves rode in a matching run. Just a simple touch an it would slide back. I've seen them since with the entire roll mechanism showing when the top was up. The "roll" was of walnut burl as were the drawer fronts and the top. The writing surface would slide out and had a leather (suede not smooth) writing surface on it. I don't remember if there were extending arms under it. I have the impression that there were. The gallery was pigeons over burl front paper drawers divide by a cathedral with plinths. The lower section was a thin drawer on top and larger equal drawers on down in a standard frame and panel (burl) base.
The desk was without upper caseworks.
Love to see it in progress, especially how you handle the stiles and the actual mechanism.
The pivot could be done in wood or metal. Do you weld? (outside of course :-)
Good luck
John
Hi John,
I was thinking that I could make a trough in the sides of the lower case that the top could ride in. I may be oversimplifying it but similar to a rolltop desk except this would be a C curve not a lazy S pattern like on a rolltop desk. I either need to see an actual cylinder top or plans for one.
Most rolltop desks I've seen curve in two directions in tracks on each side, thus the need for the tambours instead of one solid piece like the cylinder top. Also, the cylinder looks like it might be like 2/3rds of a circle, not a ½ circle. I could be wrong about this so a lot more research is in order.
Any other ideas/pics/inputs will be most appreciated.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,Your not over simplifying it at all. Other than the radius woodwork, it is pretty much straight forward. Your on target. When I referred to the "roll-top" I was thinking of the concept rather than the "S". Since it's only a touch more (maybe 3/4") than a 1/4 cylinder it doesn't have to travel that far to be encased. The outer curved "casement" stiles (with a channel for the outer panel) cover the "roll" channel and M/T directly to the top and bottom rails, dadoed, doweled or stop slide-dovetailed to the top and base., just to the side of the sliding table. The casement styles give you a good opportunity to add some vertical veneering to match the roll. Remember it's all nothing more than a different case top to a pan/frame/drawer base. Your thinking is all in the right direction.
That one on e-bay is a whole nutter poopy.
Are you leaning toward metal or wood for the carrier? I think it would be really a nice challenge, but rewarding it it could be accomplished in wood. Love to see the progress. What woods or do you have special stuff that you've been reserving?John
John,
Are you leaning toward metal or wood for the carrier?
Not sure what you mean by carrier but I'm leaning toward wood. For the base of the cylinder I'm thinking of Baltic Birch but ran across some bending plywood. Max. thickness for the bending p-wood is 3/8" which might work with hardwood framing around it and veneered on both sides. Much to think about.
What woods or do you have special stuff that you've been reserving?
The first thought that came to me regarding material is that pile of cherry sitting over the garage from my folks estate. Seems fitting to me. Now if I can make some cherry burl veneer for the cylinder top............. I do have the cherry burl but not sliced yet. Also have some silver birch burl in the rough.
One some of the pieces that I've seen so far it looks like the edges of the cylinder are framed. I can see a vision of these frames in my mind where the inside of the frame is mortised to accept the cylinder and the outside is a curved tenon to fit into the case side mortises. Does that make sense to you? Need to sharpen the pencil I guess.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
If you have a copy of "Encyclopedia of Furniture Making" Earnest Joyce,Sterling Publishing, there is some discussion and diagrams/ illustrations on page 258. Look Under Cylinder fall desks. The cylinder is a little less than 1/4 and may be coopered tenoned into side stiles, in turn tenoned into curved mortise so as to travel in case sides. The fall device is a simple "T" with the base at writing surface top-width center and top of "T" is radius to match radius of roll. Am I clear enough? It's easier to show than to write. Wood and metal versions shown in book. Back of gallery is angled to accommodate lid as it rolls past. If you have trouble finding the book, I may be able to get the page scanned. You may have it in the local library....
Hope this helps.John
Edited 4/15/2008 5:03 pm by boilerbay
Bob, The device is the "carrier" as I mentioned in the previous version. Another method to pivot the top would be that of a (probably wood) bar with an elongated mortise in the center. This slot would accommodate a fixed pin around which the bar would travel in a reciprocating manner. It requires a receiving space below the desk top to allow it's down motion toward the back as the cover is opened and then toward the front as the cover is fully opened. This most probably the mechanism used in the more barreled version you showed (Victorian).....I really need to get you the drawing, they are so much clearer than my verbiage.John
Bob, I have been watching the comments here, and have a suggestion. If you were to make a cut out of 3/4" or 1", cabinet grade plywood, in the shape of quarter round moulding. Having one each side and some form of a laminated brace for the center, this could be fastened to the case,and top with some decorative hardware, or dowels. It may give you the basic shape you want. It could then be covered with a luan type ply, and veneered, or finished as you see fit, saw some thing on the web, but can't remember where, it says to watch the fit for the cylinder, as they tend to stick in humid weather.
Not sure if I understood you correctly but most of the ones I've seen so far seem to have hardwood stiles & rails. Here's a couple of pics I found.
Also, they are also called Cylinder-Fall Secretaries. Seems like the first one was for Louis XV in the 1700s made by German cabinet maker Jean-François Oeben beginning it in 1760 and finished in 1769 by his disciple, Jean-Henri Riesener.
Oh this adventure is getting more interesting.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Now that was pretty stupid on my part! I indicated that I had pics of some cylinders but neglected to attach them. View Image
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Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob .. You are FAR from stupid!
It's just us older folks forget the obvious! Not in my long term memory anyway..
Thanks fer the laugh....
Edited 4/16/2008 9:25 am by WillGeorge
Will,
Ya know, once you pass that 60 plateau it's the third thing that goes.
I have a theory about life here on planet Earth: You're born with
1. little or no hair,
2. no teeth,
3. no memory
And, when ya start to get older ya revert right back to how you started in the beginning!
:>)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,I liked the invisible shots before but not much detail. Seeing these last shots (which were very similar to the desk my parents had) reminded me if the interior construction. I'm pretty sure that
a. As the piece was coming unglued - that top was attached with dowels and
b. The gallery's forward walls on the far right and left extended to the front of the desk, following the arc of the roll. This must have been the "cover to hide the pivot arm.John
John,
that top was attached with dowels and - The top of the case i'm assuming right?
The gallery's forward walls on the far right and left extended to the front of the desk, following the arc of the roll. This must have been the "cover to hide the pivot arm.
Well duh on me! Been trying to visualize the pivot arm and it just wasn't coming thru. Was thinking of the top running in mortises that follow the curve and not needing any type of pivot arm assembly on each end of the cylinder. Kinda like a rolltop desk.
It makes sense that the pivot arm would make it work very smoothly but certainly complicates the construction.
This whole discussion is very educational for me. Almost like a blog corroberation thang.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,The top of the case meaning the top of the drawer section and also the very top of the desk section in toto - before the upper case is attached. The top of the drawer section is the pull out writing surface level. It kind of is a asymetrical dust frame. For the very tall unit - it would consist of 3 assemblies. Base, roll and upper. Base and roll can yield a beautiful desk all by itself. The fall is kind of unique so the duh is for sure understandable. If metal, the pivot can be done in brass as well as steel.Let me know know if you can't find the book. It will answer all your questions including veneer rolls.John
Bob, Here is a site that will show you better what I was trying to explain (I hope), on the idea of a quarter round. http://www.cumberlandwoodcraft.com, look under decorative millwork, brackets 66 designs. This may be a way to start the cylinder, and modify from here. I hope the pictures help better than the words, it's hard to put into words the pictures in your head, hope this helps!!. garyowen
Here's another one with a different approach to handling the cylinder within the case.
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I wouldn't exactly call it an elegant mathod with the pieces on the sides.
The slideout writing surface is also different too:
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Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/18/2008 12:56 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Greetings Bob: After a long absense I was checking the Knots listings and happened on your note on a cylinder top desk. How is your project coming along. I have one that I listed some time ago, seeking help with the legs. It has none, the originals having been cut off over a hundred years ago. I have had the desk apart and at present it is partially cleaned. I have come up with a design which I think will support the desk and probably look just fine although not original. Finding help in this has been like looking for the proverbial needle. I can get some pictures to gether of the insides and mechanism. On this one there is an iron bracket that mounts the cylinder to the carcass and an arm from the bracket to the slide out writing surface. The cubby hole/drawer assembly inside the desk comes out in one piece and is curved on the back to accomodate the roll of the cylinder into the back of the desk. This particular piece also has some internal mechanisms which lock all drawers once the cylinder is closed. Ted [email protected]
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