Replies

1. 
   RW | Nov 26, 2002 05:49am | #1

   Anything successful may not fit into your "easy" criteria. I'd shoot it with dewaxed shellac and dyes, but that doesn't strike me as what you're looking for. Water based plus oil based anything is always a potential for cussing, so yes, I'd use a sealer/tie coat but not your average sanding sealer since most of them are also oil based. I'd go for shellac there. And you can get zinnser (what are they labelling the can anyways, I never remember) - but they're selling dewaxed shellac in a can now. After which the gel stain isn't a bad idea. At that point, it's going to act more like it would on a fiberglass door than it would on bare wood. I have better luck with Old Masters gels than others I've tried. China bristle brush, work one section at a time, keep the brush next to a can of thinner and periodically just dip the very tips in the thinner to help the stain smooth out a little better. By one area at a time I mean a panel, a drawer front, a rail . . . if you have to do something large like a table top get a big brush, thin the stain, and move quick. Even out the grain marks that you create the same way you'd tip off after applying varnish - just licking the bristle ends over it, and man, leave it alone after that. Once it starts to set if you monkey with it you'll screw it all up and have to re-do things. It works pretty well. If you haven't done this before, it's really not that hard - but start on the smallest areas you can to get the feel for it before you get to larger parts. And play classical music.

1. 
   dovetail3 | Nov 26, 2002 07:47am | #3

   RW: You helped with some good suggestions for making the raised panels and they came out well I'm pleased to report. I'm sure your hints on finishing will be helpful also.

   Thanks much! Ken

2. 
   dovetail3 | Nov 28, 2002 03:15am | #9

   RW: Since your post I took a piece of maple to the paint store for them to prepare a sample. When I saw the results I realized you were correct taking the easy road may not be a good choice. I definitely need to seal the maple. Could you elaborate on your technique with shellac and dyes. Another problem I didn't forsee is matching some maple drawers to  an existing wall unit made mostly of maple veneer. Matching this is going to be tricky. Would shellac be your choice of a sealor here as well?

   Thanks

   Ken, Palm Desert CA

1. 
   RW | Nov 28, 2002 06:43am | #10

   Sure. I've detailed it before, but I can't find it. Here goes. Dewaxed blonde shellac for everything. I mix up enough that I know I won't run short. It takes longer to dissolve than some other types, so don't expect it to go in an hour. I usually stir it up the day before. I mix it at least a 3lb cut. The nice thing here is, it is your sealer coat, your binder, your dye carrier all in one. I use Transtint dyes which are alcohol soluble and fairly lightfast. Get a clear plastic mixing tub and start mixing your colors there. Each "batch" of color should be enough that you can spray the entire piece with that color. I use almost exclusively a touchup gun to spray with. Its small and maneuverable, and with alcohols viscosity, with the fan pattern opened up, it gives you decent coverage (8-10" fan). To each cup I spray out of the gun, I put in about 2/3 of a dixie cup of shellac, and add dye to fill. This gives you more like a 1lb or less cut of shellac, which is fine. You're not trying to build finish here, just add binder. Why? Dye on top of dye only lasts so long until you've saturated the piece and it won't take any more. With the binder, you're putting on very very thin layers, one at a time, and you can build as long as you like without running into that issue. Start light and with the intention that you're going to do maybe a dozen coats. Don't get ambitious about getting it dark right away. You want to watch each color as it builds, check against a picture, a stain sample, a color wheel, whatever you need to guide you. I start typically with the lighter colors (yellows, honey tones) and work towards the browns and reds. Each layer you put on will almost look like you're barely accomplishing anything, but ten coats later you've turned yellow into dark mahogany. If your experimentations with color are going the right direction but too light, you can use just a couple of drops of black to darken things up, but not too much. It can obscure the finished piece. I would recommend different sources of lighting for trying to match a color - light from a window, incandescants, florescents - they'll all give it a different look. You want the majority of your light coming from the same type of source as what the piece will sit under. If you match a color in direct sunlight and put it under nothing other than florescent fixtures, especially with your reds and oranges, chances are it will look way off. That particular anomaly is called chatoyance, but thats an entire other essay. So you mix your color in the tub so you can gauge what you're adding, you mix the shellac and the tinted alcohol in the gun, and shoot in wide sweeping paths. Pay attention to light even coats, especially on vertical surfaces, so as to avoid runs and sags. What the color looks like in the tub will be considerably darker than what hits the piece (kind of like your side view mirrors on the truck) but don't go overboard on the dyes to compensate. Trust me. Multiple coats will build the color. The nice thing about this is when you're done, maybe you've sprayed ten or fifteen thin layers on, but the net result is no thicker in film thickness than if you'd merely applied a couple of layers of straight shellac as a sealer / tie coat. And since it doubles as the s/t coat, you can top it with virtually anything. Another advantage is with fresh shellac and the speed at which the alcohol flashes off, you can stand there and spray almost all day unfettered. Things tack dry quite quickly. The last time I used this was on a fireplace mantle. Twelve coats in just over an hour. Dewaxed shellac you can order in flake form from a variety of places, but since I'm recommending the Transtint dyes, drop in on Jeff Jewitt  http://www.homesteadfinishing.com  and get them both there. Dewaxed Extra Pale shellac is $20 a lb, the Transtint liquid dyes are$10.50 per 2oz, $26.25 per 4oz. You don't need every color, but for a dark cherry color I'd get Honey amber, reddish brown, medium brown, brown mahogany, bright red, and black and experiment a little to get a feel for things before you attack the real piece. Good luck. More ? email me if you like.

   Edited 11/27/2002 10:46:15 PM ET by RWORIGINALS

   well, at least I got most of it spelled right the second time around

   Edited 11/27/2002 10:49:39 PM ET by RWORIGINALS

1. 
   cowtown | Nov 28, 2002 10:04am | #11

   My pea-brain rational to achieve this is as follows...

   Knowing that maple, like birch, can go blotchy, any brush or wipe-on stain is gonna have that risk-of-mess, so what I've used is a spray stain. Diluted, cause I ain't achieved a master's touch with a spray gun.

   now, if yer panels are gonna shrink, they are gonna have a white line where the spray stain didn't hit em, so better make sure they is dry dry dry.

   The spray gun I use is one of the basic "touch-up" guns you can pick up for twenty bucks or so. I run it off of either of my compressors which are not designed for it, and as long as I ain't spraying huge expanses, a compressor that drives finishing nailers will work OK. Grab an air-line moisture trap from the finish supplier if ya ain't got one yet. Ya don't want to have drops of water in the air hoses skewing the works for ya.

   BTW, these little guns are a great intro to spray finishing. You learn a lot quick. A couple of em go a long way towards achieving expeditiousness.

   Better to achieve the result in three or four coats than trying for one. And oh ya, labelled samples are a must or else you end up with a "lemmee see, was that three coats of stain, one of laquer, or one of stain and three of laquer" dilemma.

   The stain accentuates the grain, the shading laquer subdues it, but it is still visible -till ya overdo the shading laquer. Ya gotta do the samples to achieve the desired effect.

   And do it outside the house eh -or in yer ohsa approved spray booth eh? This stuff is not healthy to breath -respirator too eh- and even as it dries, it has a distinctive odor that won't make the wife and kids happy campers. Not to mention the risk of blowing up the cabin if you should be spraying it indoors.

   Then, I use a shading laquer to add additional colour and depth of finish. Same gun. Get the colour you want. Sheen you can adjust with overcoats of appropriate spray can laquers if you wish. Too shiney, just overspray with a spray can lower glass finish coat.

   I also use a commercial laquer mixer to generate both the stain and the laquer colours. Not cheap, but the time saved is worth it.

   This finishing stuff ain't as simple or as easy to do as some would have you believe.

   Cowtown

   I ain't exploded yet, but then I do try to be careful.

   this stuff ain't exactly non-hazardous

   and yer neighbours could get unhappy real quick too!!!

2. 
   dovetail3 | Nov 28, 2002 08:14pm | #12

   RW. I'd be stupid not to take advantage of your generous offer. I have one problem. I don't have a spray booth. My shop resides in my garage which is quite large and airconditioned. I have a terriffic air brush which has a fine spray but fairly small pattern. I don't like the idea of spraying that much in the shop because of the overspray. Can this method you suggest work with a paint brush? I don't know your e-mail address. Mine is [email protected].

   Thanks again

   Ken

1. 
   RW | Nov 29, 2002 12:20am | #14

   Bummer. I wouldn't try it with a paint brush. Too many opportunities to drag what you laid down all over the place. The garage isn't really all that bad a place if it's clean and you're just putting alcohol in the air (as long as you still have ventilation and aren't smoking a cigar) - which is not to say it isn't volatile, just not as nasty to everything as lacquer. I suppose technically the airbrush could work, but man. To me the prospect of airbrushing a piece of furniture is kind of like trying to paint your living room with a Q-tip.

   If you want to email someone, click on their tagline at the top of the thread to open up their personal section. There's a "send email" link in there. Nice, you don't have to give out your email address for someone to be able to send to you. Blind, I guess.

   Can you borrow a compressor from someone? You could buy the touchup gun - they're all of about $30. Or maybe the wiff will let you get a compressor as an early Xmas present. You've been so good this year, haven't you? Before you breach the topic, I might recommend my own expert tactics there. Just this week I got her a key lime pie, a bottle of white Zin, iced it down good, and had dinner ready when she got home. I coulda got a new table saw by ten pm.

   Heck, I'm feeling so charitable if you were anywhere near me you could come over and I'd show you how to do it and you could use my stuff. But nobody here is in Nebraska.

2. 
   CRAIGCONEY_M | Dec 04, 2002 09:49pm | #15

   Ken,

   The method I used can be done with a brush or paint pad.  At the time I didn't have a spray gun, and the results came out great.

3. 
   dovetail3 | Dec 04, 2002 10:14pm | #16

   Sorry Craig, What method is that. I've read so much on the subject I just can't remember.

   Thanks Ken

4. 
   CRAIGCONEY_M | Dec 05, 2002 01:58am | #17

   #7 on the reply list, used WB poly & gel stain.  Used a paint pad & foam brushes for applying the stain, foam & poly brushes for the poly

2. 
   camel | Nov 26, 2002 07:04am | #2

   Hey Ken- I'm not much of a finisher myself. I've ran into this same situation a few times. At the beginning of the job, I take a drawer or whatever I have to match to O'leary, which is a local, I guess contractor supply store. I give them the drawer (front which is the color I need to match) and a nice piece of the wood I'm working with. Within a week, I have a great match in a quart, usually. By usually I mean, that's all I need. To get my point across, if the source is there, then why not use it? Unless you have nothing better to do than mess around with 50 different shellacs and stains and this and that and that. Great. And they'll tell you, if you can't figure it out, the way they applied it to get the right finish. How much easier could it be? Have fun.

   John E. Nanasy

1. 
   dovetail3 | Nov 26, 2002 07:48am | #4

   Thanks John!

3. 
   CRAIGCONEY_M | Nov 27, 2002 01:25am | #5

   Last year for Xmas I built my wife an armiore for her scrapbooking out of maple.  I stained it antique cherry using General finishes WB gel stain.  I used a WB poly and thinned it 50% for the sealer.  Turned out great.  I would recommend using say WB stain, Oil Based finish coat to avoid runs on the stain or vice versa.  The stain took 2 coats to achieve the proper color.  I can send you some pics if you would like.

1. 
   dovetail3 | Nov 27, 2002 02:30am | #6

   Craig: Thanks. I went to the local paint store and they are high on

   Zar oil base stain and an oil base polyurethane finish. I use a WB finish that is terriffic but never over an oil base stain. What little experience I have with WB stain has not been good. Isn't oil base stain easier to control? I'm afraid I am not terribly patient and don't enjoy finish work. Thanks for your suggestion. I'm sure you did a great job on your project.

   Ken

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Nov 27, 2002 04:36am | #7

   Ken - Zar "Cherry" stain is a nice color - not very dark, but it looks good. If you want a "dark" cherry stain that works well on maple, get it from http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com or Sherwin Williams paint store (or another paint store in your area that stocks a brand that works well). If you want to give the Zar a test, here's a technque that's worked well for me with Zar:

   Thin the stain 50% with mineral spirits and add one tablespoon of japan drier (from the paint store). Using a cotton rag, quickly wet an area/side of the piece with the stain. Squeeze the excess stain from the rag (don't wring it out dry) and use the damp rag to wipe the excess stain in the direction of the grain (I fold the rag into a pad so that it's flat when wiping). Get the stain even and streak free. Repeat this process on the rest of the piece. Let the stain dry overnight (the japan drier makes the stain dry in a day). if needed, apply another coat of stain using the same technique and let dry overnight. Make sure the stain is cured - odor free - and apply you first coat of finish.

   You can apply a water-base finish over an oil-base stain - you just have to make sure the oil-base stain is cured. Once the odor from the stain is completely gone, it's cured, and the water-base finish will adhere well.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   dovetail3 | Nov 27, 2002 01:39pm | #8

   Paul: Actually I left a few pieces of maple at tne paint store and they're going to prepare samples using dark mahogany and another stain I need to match some other project I'm planning. Your technique sounds great and I will definitely try it.

   thanks Ken, Palm Desert CA

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Nov 28, 2002 08:29pm | #13

   Ken - the recommendations to build the color in multiple steps is the best approach to getting a deep, even color - especially on a difficult wood like maple. The oil-base stain you plan to use can do this, but you will have to apply a number of coats and the pigments in the stain will start to look like paint after a few coats - the wood grain will hidden.

   There are many ways to do build the color without obscuring the wood grain. The main consideration is how you plan to apply the finish. If you are doing a hand applied finish, you will want to use some combination of dyes, stains and/or glazing stains. If you are using spray equipment; dyes, stains, glazes, and clear coats with added color (toners) are all options and can be used in any combination to get the color and depth you want.

   This sample maple board was first colored with a stain, then another coat of color was applied over that on part of the board. You can see the difference it makes to add the color in layers. The right side of the board was colored with a dye toner, though a glaze or dye stain could have been used instead.

   View Image

   Maple With Two Layers of Color

   The "Dark Cherry" stain from woodfinishingsupplies.com will produce the best single step color of any stain I know of to get a dark cherry color on maple. If you want to try a multiple step finish (not just stain & clear coats), how will you be applying the finish and what products would you like to try (dye, stain, glaze, toner)? Paul

   F'burg, VA