Replies

1. 
   Westchester | Feb 16, 2010 03:36pm | #1

   Hello 70 years young -
   You're
   Hello 70 years young -

   You're new at this but it's not too difficult -

   Three books I would recommend are Jeff Jewitt, Michael Dresdner, or Bob Flexner - personal favorite is Dresdner.

   Anyway start with a water based mahogany dye stain - followed by a mahogany oil stain - and finish with gloss varnish.

   SA

1. 
   Jeff Noyes | Feb 16, 2010 04:48pm | #2

   Thanks. I've got Jewitt's
   Thanks. I've got Jewitt's book, but that's like trying to get a sip of water from a fire-hose - way too much information. Do you use any particular brand/color of mahogany stains? What about pore filling? How do you deal with end grain that shows? I appreciate the help.

   Jeff Noyes

1. 
   Westchester | Feb 16, 2010 05:39pm | #3

   The dye stains I use are behlans - - Mohawk is another source for materials - as well as Jewitts site called Homestead finishing products.

   For grain filling - I like an oil based formula - but I don't think sapele will need filling - you can also apply finish to sapele and sand back until the grain is full. If you use filler - you can get it in a dark mahogany color.

   If you want to keep end grain as light as possible - seal it before staining.

   SA

2. 
   WillGeorge | Feb 16, 2010 07:18pm | #4

   I used quite a bit of quarter sawn Sapele making two canopy beds last year. I found that although the boards looked similar, they sure did NOT all finish the same. I have no way to know for sure but all the wide boards looked like they were matching slices from the same tree when cut.

   I like you am NOT a finisher. I did not try to stain it to a dark color. I just wanted a better match between the cuts. I found that some areas of the stock required minor filling.

   May I suggest that you SAVE any scrap and mark it so you know what board they came from. (Just me.. I always save my 'cut-offs, just in case).

   I would also suggest that you obtain a color wheel like one in the following link. That is, if you are not good at color matching. I sure am not!

   http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17636

   This color wheel is for Tints.

   Check the web pages of the manufacturer for the product you use. They may have something on mixing their colors. I believe you will need a different color wheel for transparent and opaque.

   As I stated, I an not a finisher but I find mixing colors that are dark brown are hard to match.

   Not sure if it will work for you, but I got my best match using my digital camera (same lighting conditions). I looked at the photo histogram that my camera provides. I am not a good photographer either! I just mixed my tints and let it dry a few days and then tried a picture and my eye... I used my scraps for matching the color between items cut. Turned out reasonably well. If you have a friend or family member that is a artist they could probably tell you in a few moments, the ratios of colors you need.

   I am assuming that you are trying to match the existing color. May I also suggest that you clean the original and remove any wax or whatever without ruining the finish. When cleaned, it may look very different. I say clean it ONLY if you do not deem necessary the original patina.

   Good luck, and have fun! Not quite as old as you are but very close!

1. 
   Jeff Noyes | Feb 17, 2010 10:27am | #5

   I'm not trying to match the table bottom - we stripped it (the finish was in bad shape but the wood and joints are OK), so I'll be doing the whole table. The bottom wood is somewhat darker than the new sapele, so that will be a challenge. I don't have any product yet, just some MinWax stains from the home center which my wife uses on some pieces that she has worked on. So I really am starting from the very beginning.

3. 
   sapwood | Feb 17, 2010 09:11pm | #6

   I like to use water soluble dyes for color followed by my finish. Adding a pigmented stain after the dye coat can add some depth to the overall look. Arriving at the exact procedure is not a matter of simply following some formula in a book. All wood is different, even within the same species. You need to do some experimenting on scrap from your project before mucking about on it. 

   For materials, I like Lockwood dyes, Trans-Fast dye, TransTint dye, and have had good luck with Mohawk and Behlan brands. Actually, I've never used a dye that gave me poor results. I have used a lot of the MinWax stains with good results.

   One word of caution when using dyes. They will change color over a relatively short period of time after they are mixed with water. That is to say, after mixing, they have a short shelf life. So I now mix half batches unless it's a big job.

1. 
   peter28 | Feb 17, 2010 09:55pm | #7

   Sapwood,

   Can you explain what you mean by the dyes changing color after a short period of time? Which brand, type color etc. I use a lot of dyes and can't say I've experienced that. I know air borne bacteria can have an effect on them if left open for long periods of time. How did you determine that the color was weakening? Lot's of questions I know but found it to be an interesting observation.

1. 
   sapwood | Feb 18, 2010 11:40am | #10

   Peter,

   My experience with this dye color change began after mixing a fresh batch of some Lockwood brand dye. I don't recall the exact color though it may have been Standard Brown Mahogany (one of my favorites). This was to augment some dye I had already had on the shelf.... dye that I used in making up color samples for the specific project at hand. Fortunately I also happened to test the new dye on a sample of my wood. There was no question that the color differed from the older batch. So, I presumed that Lockwood had mislabled either the new packet of dye (an easy thing to check) or the old one (long since discarded). I called the Lockwood people to tell them and ask for a replacement. Their representative soon asked me how old the dye was that I had been using. "Way old," I told her. I'd probably had it in its mixed condition for ten years. That was the problem then, she said. Their dyes have a relatively short term color fastness once they're mixed. She was sure to note that they remain color fast indefinitely in their dry state. 

   The color of the new and old dye batch was unquestionably different. Both are very nice but would never be thought of as coming from the same dye batch. Since then, I've checked some of my other old shelved dyes against newly mixed ones. Sure enough, all exhibit some shift in color. Perhaps other brands don't do this.... I haven't checked that yet. 

   As for my project... fortunately I was able to just get by with what I had of the old batch and finish. I have found that even the color shifted dyes will still remain stable once applied, dry, and given topcoats.

   I would welcome yours and others experiences regarding this topic. Perhaps it deserves its own thread.

4. 
   Jeff Noyes | Feb 18, 2010 09:25am | #8

   The top doesn't show much "striping" and I would like to see some grain when it's done. More important is that the new top and old bottom look the same. Yes, I'm aiming for a glass-like finish, so it would seem that pore filling would be necessary. Do you do that before or after getting the color right? How about end-grain? The top is solid with no edge banding, so there will be a lot of end grain showing. Should I seal the top before anything or do something different to the end grain. Interestingly, the Wood Whisperer web site just posted a video on doing a dark mahogany finish. I've saved all my off-cuts, so I can do plenty of testing. I also just ordered Marc's video on wipe-on varnish finishing. I may be getting close to having enough information to be able to order some products. Yay!

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 18, 2010 11:27am | #9

   Since you have fairly tame sapele, I would try a three part schedule.  First a red dye step, lightly sealed, then a brown mahogany dye to tone down the red, and achieve the overall level of darkness desired, after this is sealed I would use a tinted pore filler to add depth. 

   By the way, the General Finishes dye, is not a pure dye, but a dye with some sort of binder.  I haven't used it and it seems you would need a particular reducer (to maintain the binder's ability to coalesce)  if you want to lighten the shade. Powdered watersoluble dye, such as that from W.D. Lockwood, or TransFast will work fine.  The Lockwood offers a very wide range of colors.  I'd try something quite red, not just a red mahogany, even though that's about the shade you want in the end.  I'd mix this a bit lighter than the "suggested" concentration.  After this dries I'd expect it to look AWFUL. 

   I'd then seal this with a wash coat of shellac.  A starting place would be kess than 1 lb. cut--for example mixing equal parts of Seal Coat (2 lb. cut from the can) with denatured alcohol, gives a bit over 0.8 pound cut shellac.  

   Even though this wood has been sealed (partially) I'd then apply a second water soluble dye,  this time a brown mahogany color,   I'd start by mixing a somewhat concentrated mix, (about twice the "recommended" powder for the amount of water.  Then I'd  diulte small amounts for test purposes to get the overall darkness you want.  (Aim for just a little bit lighter than the final look.)  If your tests show too much "red" remaining, or not dark enough over all even with a concentrated brwon dye, then go back and try the system using a lighter cut of shellac to seal the red.  (For example, 1 part  Seal Coat, with 2 parts denatured alcohol is about 0.5 lb. cut shellac. ) 

   You will have to give some sort of top coat over this second dye step to see where you stand.  (You can simulate this roughtly with a wipe with mineral spirits.)  What I'd expect you to see is a mahogany look with red hight lights, though with the overall appearance rather dull, and while the grain hasn't been obscured,  there won't be very much "life" to the finish. 

   If you are about right in over all shade and darkness, I'd then seal this second dye step with 1 coat of 2 lb. cut shellac, such as Seal Coat  (anywhere seal coat is mentioned you can mix your own.) 

   At this point you would be ready for the pore filling.  An oil based pore filler is best.  (If you can get together with some friends to split a gallon Sherwin Williams has the highest percent of silex, giving lower shrink, and more transparency.  The pore filler should be tinted--probably with a shade a bit darker than the base color you have achieve with dye.  You can experiment with the color by varying the mix of burnt umber and burnt sienna pigment.  These can be Japan colors, or easiest to find locally, artists oil paints (avoid the cheapest student grade which often contains fillers sometimes including wax) 

   Apply the pore filler in manageable sections (you won't see an overlap between sections on a table top)  Wipe off excess when the surface hazes over with a plastic scrape working across the grain.  (On small areas a credit card, on larger areas a  plastic drywall knife)  then get the remaining material off the surface with a coarse grain cloth like burlap.  After you have gotten most all the excess off and the material has pretty clearly begun to really dry, finish off with the grain, so that you don't have cross grain streaks, and taking care not to pull the material out of the pores. 

   Let this cure for about a week before applying a top coat.  A wiping varnish would be a good choice.  Darker varnishes, such as Behlen  Rockhard (thinned) or Waterlox (in three three sheens.  Original/Sealer is a nice semi-gloss that comes in wiping consistency, the Gloss is heavier bodied, and would need thinning to use as a wiping varnish. 

   Bye the way--one of the reasons for the two dye steps was to allow you to make an adjustment  to pull base and top closer together.  If it appears that the base will turn out too dark with the brown mahogany dye step, you can mix a lighter concentration of that brown dye. 

5. 
   sapwood | Feb 18, 2010 09:13pm | #11

   No no... don't be confused. My writing skills, or lack thereof, have led you astray. I had a quantity of the old dye but was unsure it would be enough. So I mixed up a quart of new dye (same color, same brand) to augment. But before mixing the two batches together I noticed that they were different. Some tests on my wood scraps, with a clear finish, confirmed this. I then decided to use the old dye and hope that I had enough. Turns out that I did... I was glad of that, of course.

   The two colors were too dissimilar to attribute to dye batch variation. I called the Lockwood company and they informed me that the color of mixed aniline dye will shift over time. I also checked in with a buddy who is in the business of furniture refinishing... he uses a lot of dyes in his work. He confirmed the color shift thing having seen it himself. 

   I don't know how long the color of mixed dye will remain stable. As I said before, the older dye had been on the shelf for quite some time... years. I tend to mix them quite strong and dilute as needed. 

   For what its worth... as I recall the older dye had more red than the new which was decidedly more brown. 

1. 
   peter28 | Feb 18, 2010 10:28pm | #12

   Sapwood,

   I was surprised you had it around for ten years. Frugal eh? I have a number of colors mixed and stored. I'll do a little checking with those and some new stuff and let you know what I find.

   To my mind I would attribute it to batch variation, but you seem pretty sure it isn't. Not sure on that one.

   I do know from talking with them, at Lockwoods, some formulas have had some variation over the years.

   I was at Lockwoods in January for a full day. It was pretty interesting. I have a potential article in the works for dyes so I will indeed dig pretty deeply on the variation you spoke of. It is a fact that bacteria can affect the solution which I would imagine would affect the color.

   A little more info: Moser and Lee Valley dyes are Lockwood colors repackaged. Also, walnut crystals are not derived from walnuts but peet.

   Peter