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I’m building a mahogany bed that will have many joints where cleaning up glue squeeze out will be very difficult. I want the joints to be as strong as possible, so I was considering epoxy, but sanding any epoxy squeeze out would be a real bear. Many of the joints are face grain to end grain.
I’ve had poor results using gorilla glue in this type of joint.
Anybody got a favorite glue that combines strength with ease of cleanup, or a clever trick to know you’ve got enough glue in there without having squeeze out?
Yours truly,
Glue Slob
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Hi Charles,
Let's start at the beginning: long grain to end grain (or end grain to end grain) will never give a good glue joint no matter what glue you use. Glue depends upon long fiber to long fiber contact for the glue to work. If you find yourself gluing long/end grain joints, you should revisit your joinery. There is always a solution in solid wood or sheet goods to give a good joint. And if there's not, your design is flawed in some manner.
Second: there is no reason to use epoxy for the application you describe. Solid wood interior furniture should almost always be put together with PVA (yellow glue) or if you prefer, hide glue. There are special applications where other glues are warranted, but a bed is not one of them. If you find yourself needing to use epoxy, you should revisit your joinery.
Third: for every standard gluing application that I'm familiar with, you WANT squeeze out. It's the sign you have enough glue in the joint. No squeeze out means there's a potential problem.
If you want more information on glues, I suggest "The Glue Book" from Taunton.
The group can probably help you with your joinery if you tell us more about what you're trying to do.
Best,
Kim Carleton Graves
Carleton Woodworking
*It's a kit, so not many options on changing the joinery. The joint in question is where a rail (end grain) meets a post. It's doweled and there's a fairly large amount of surface area, but I'd still consider the joint sub-optimal; thus my desire for the epoxy. I'm mostly concerned about making the finish turn out well; the mahogany has beautiful figure. I generally end up with probably too much squeeze out. This bed has lots of joints where dealing with cleaning up squeeze out will be a real chore, so If I don't get every bit, It will jeopardize my finish.
*Hi Charles,I apologize. I see your dilemma. Dowel joints are theoretically bad. But the vast majority of professional shops use them routinely because it's such a good production joint. Everyone uses PVA with them for just the reasons you state.If you're really worried about the strength of the joint and have access to tools, you have a couple of options. The first and best option is you can make a floating tenon out of joint which is just as strong as a regular mortise and tenon joint. The second is you can try a new product I saw recently (I'm trying to remember where…). It's a "doweling jig" that fits over the end of the board. Your drill holes overlap at some interval determined by the jig. You then buy a "tenon" made for the jig that fits into the holes. The nice thing about the product is it allows you to make a "floating tenon" joint using standard drill bits - you don't need a horizontal mortiser.Hope this helps. Best,Kim Carleton GravesCarleton Woodworking
*Kim, I saw that new jig also, in my last Rockler catalog; Highland Hardware also carries it. It's called the Beadlock Joinery system. Goes for about $45. As you indicated, you can't make your own tenon stock, you have to buy it. The edge of the tenon stock looks like lasagna noodles. (Charles, it's http://www.rockler.com or http://www.highlandhardware.com if you're interested.) GP
*Let me pick your brain on one more thing about this kit........ The headboard and foot board each have a panel that's curved; veneer plies laid up in a vacuum bag to make a curved shape. The panel goes into slots in the rails and posts, not unlike a frame and panel door. The directions call for glue to be applied in the slots. I've never glued a panel in any of the doors I've made. Eventhough this panel is essentially plywood, therefore largely eliminating expansion issues, it seems to me that there's little to be gained by glueing the panel into the slots. Since the panel is slightly undersized to ensure a fit, it doesn't seem that the glue woudld get enough contact to add any structural strength. Am I missing something?
*Hi Charles,Sorry not to get back to you sooner.Your question exposes one of those gray areas of woodworking where all the arguments are. Would gluing in the panel make it stronger? Sure. It has to touch somewhere so there is glue surface exposed. But how strong does the panel have to be? Is it structural - No. Is it going to rattle around during normal and abnormal use - Maybe. As a pro who needs to go as fast as he can I probably wouldn't glue it - actually I'd put a little dap in the middle to keep it centered. But if I had to give you advise, I'd say follow the instructions. Is it going to hurt to glue it in?Best,Kim Carleton GravesCarleton Woodworking
*I think the only way it can hurt is if I end up getting glue all over the place and not have it serve any real purpose. I try to use what I call "can't hurt, might help" logic. If it can't hurt and it might help, I go ahead and do it. In this case, it might add some rigidity, but I also might get glue all over everything. Kinda puts it in the grey area you described. If this were a piece that I designed and built, I'd be less reluctant to take chances. In this case, getting or making replacement parts would be a pain, so I'm trying to be very careful. Anyway, thanks for the advice. It's always good to have someone to bounce this stuff off of. .....I'm going to sling some glue now......
*I have always let new glue-ups dry to a semi solid but, still soft point. Using an old chisel I carefully wipe up glue.carefull not to dig in. if your good the glue will come up in one piece. With this metthod a little extra squeeze-out can be helpful and also insure a solid glue up. Beware of doing glue up just before you leave. Over night is to long.
*Make some practice joints that are similar to the ones in question and see how much glue is too much and how much is not enough. Perhaps you could finish the pieces before the glue up. It is much easier to clean glue off of a sealed surface.
*Maybe try dry-fitting the joints and then where the glue would-squeeze out wrap the joints with the blue painters masking tape (easy off and no sticky left). After the glue has dried, pull off the tape and you are left with the squeeze-out coming off with the tape.
*Epoxy adhevsives tend to creep in loading. I prefer white glue to the damn yellow stuff. And I slightly thin it with just a splash of water.Gluing the plywood panel in is not a good idea. The panel may be more dimensionally stable than "real" wood but you still have expansion and contraction of the rails and stiles.I use a hook scraper for removing excess glue squeeze out.Use a brush for glue application. For M&T and dowelled joints, I avoid glue application on the shoulders.
Go to Lee Valley Tools and find their product called "Waxilit". This is a great product and is perfect for inlay work as well as squeese out problems.
Don
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