I have plans to build a pair of double garage doors for my shop.
The design has windows above a tongue and groove panel.
Initially I thought I would create a square frame with bridle joints, then mortice and tenon joint a rail to support the windows and separate them from the t&g panel.
Thing is, the rails and stiles are almost 6 inches deep, so cutting a mortise that deep is going to be challenging. I would, however, prefer to use M&T joinery rather than the bridle joint at the corners too.
Wood is Western Red Cedar with polyurethane glue.
Questions:
1. Am I simply self-flagellating and will a bridle joint at the corners do the job? The middle rail could have 2 inch deep floating tenons.
2. If I did want to cut very deep mortises, what is the best way to do it?
My drill press will not handle the work – only 50mm quill travel and it’s too short. I could bolt it to the side of the bench and use an accessory table, but suspect that inaccuracies will add up. I also think the 1/3HP motor will be taxed to say the least.
I have tried making a supporting slide for my hand drill but there is too much slop in the chuck for this to be accurate enough to use.
I can cut slots up to 2 inches deep with a router and spiral upcut bit. I’m working with 45mm thick stock so 15mm mortise is fine. I have a half inch bit.
By happy co-incidence I picked up a 15mm mortise chisel (well, it was imperial but badly damaged and after restoration it is a nice exact 15mm) which is big enough to cut them by hand. I quite enjoy that sort of thing generally, but even with a razor sharp chisel, cedar is challenging.
My plan at present is to use the router to hog out the 2 inches either side of the centre and then a hand-held forstner bit to cut some of the deep material then finish with the chisel. I suspect that a slightly sloppy middle 2 inches will not be a massive problem.
So, what would you do?
Wife has already ruled out buying a Nova Viking drill press, hollow-chisel mortiser etc, so anything needing purchase will have to be small enough to fit down the trousers…
Replies
Tell her you are not able to build the doors and get an estimate for having them custom built...the mortiser will look like a reasonable purchase.
Polyurethane glue is crap for filling gaps, so if your plan is for slightly sloppy interiors in the joinery you might do well to consider epoxy.
IMO bridle joints should be fine and might make for an easier assembly since they slide together from the outside in all directions. They also have a massive amount of glue surface with no need for screws or pins. How big are the doors and how will you hang them?
She's from Lancashire - congenitally born with arms too short to reach into the bottom of pockets. They make Scots look spendthrift!
The interiors would only be slightly sloppy for 2 out of 6 inches...
Your last paragraph prevents a range of answers, begining with "a Domino XL that can cut holes up to 14mm wide and 140mm long, when used from both sides of a piece" to "a Mafell chain mortiser". These are both portable, highly capable and ridiculously expensive. :-)
https://www.festool.co.uk/products/domino-jointing-system/domino-joining-machines/574420---df-700-eq-plus-gb-240v#TechnicalData
https://www.machinery4wood.co.uk/Mafell-Chain-Mortiser/C47742
What do those building timber-framed houses and similar do to create the many, many large M&T joints employed? A powerful drill capable of turning large bits with lots of torque, used in a high quality portable drill-press, seems to be the power-tool way whilst the traditional way is still lots of work with a large mortise chisel or even a slick.
https://www.fine-tools.com/bohrstaender.html
The problem with the traditional way is that it can take a lot of practice before the mortises become acceptable. When we one-offers are making a one-time thing, its too easy to ruin a lot of good wood with a cack-handed application of wonkiness.
So, no answer then - unless you can persuade the ladywife to release a purse string to its maximum gape. :-)
But practically ....
The bridle joints making the door frame corners can be strengthened by pinning them with two hardwood dowels made of a flexy and durable timber such as oak.
The cross beam below the windows doesn't need to have long mortises as deep as the door frame stiles are wide, really, so making them with a spiral bit in a router or a drill in a portable press or a mortise machine seems feasible.
Lataxe
Thanks - Those chain morticers are probably how the professionals would do the job. Look fun but excessive for a one-off job. I'd never heard of them before...
Is cedar strong enough to take a drawbore?
Rob,
No need to drawbore the bridle joints, just drilling through them and dowelling after assembley and glue-up will do.
As I understand it, drawboring is used traditionally in lieu of glue and clamp, as the slight offset of the holes in the pieces to be joined both draws the joint together and keeps it there. It's said to be much more resilient a way of joining M&T or similar overlap joints when there will be large changes in mositure levels, such as in outdoor gates or the roof trusses of buildings. Glue joints would be more prone to sheer.
So your bridle joints can just be plain dowelled through, as the glue will keep the joints together and the dowels are just a mechanical reinforcement.
Lataxe
PS I know Tykes who will dispute the dominance of the Lankies when it comes to coughing up cash for owt! On the other hand, we Geordies are proud of our generosity so avoid both Tykes and Lankies as we do not wish to become poor in 5 minutes flat, as the rascals drink and guzzle away the contents of our wallets.
You need a 3" mortise. The only option I see is a long shank forstner bit and chisel.
If the hinge bolts go through the area, then a dado/bridle joint might work out.
We sometimes over complicate our problems(or use them as an excuse for new tools 😉). The solution is a bit extender, they are available in lengths from 4- 10 inches (mm's are not my strength). With your short quill travel you may need a couple of different lengths
I'm a bit confused by your statement " My drill press will not handle the work – only 50mm quill travel and it’s too short. I could bolt it to the side of the bench and use an accessory table, but suspect that inaccuracies will add up." If I understand your project, you will be drilling mortises into 6" high boards, surely your drill press can clear at least 12" Drill to your drill presses capacity then slip in the extender(s) and finish the hole to the desired depth, no more than 5" .
https://www.rockler.com/forstner-bit-extender
You may also need a framing chisel to clean out the deep mortise.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/chisels/framing/30012-sorby-framing-chisels
Thanks esch, you would think a drill press could manage that depth, but I can't quite fit the extender I have in with the bit and get it over the table. The only way would be to mount the drill sideways on it's pillar (easy), mount that on the edge of my workbench (also easy) Then create a table top to support the lumber below the bench level and shim it up with progressively more timber until all the way through. That may be the way to go, though bridle joints is probably going to win.
One of these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WisYAsaeAkA&t=193s
See towards the end of the 3+ minute vid to watch how this Famag portable drill press deals with drilling big 'oles in large timber cross-sections.
Mind, one of these plus a geet big drill and drill bit costs nearly as much as the larger Domino. :-)
Lataxe
I was going to make something similar.
It was not until I was trying to set up the drill holder with a long drill bit in the chuck that I realised my drill was not 100% solid - there is a lot of slop in the mechanism. To be fair the drill is old, but a newer makita driver also had too much slop to be used for a through mortise.
This is not an issue for drilling where the bit is the reference point, but where the drill body has to be the fixed point, it was not acceptable.
My drill press has no slop and is great for a really cheap tool which cost less than either of the other two.
Looks like you have already received lots of suggestions that will work fine, as well as your own plan which sounds like it would work just fine. My initial thought was the same as lat axe’s. A drawbored bridle joint would be plenty strong I imagine. If you want a mortise and tenon joint with your existing setup you could rip the mortise board in half and use your router setup to mortise the two halves and glue back together for one deeper mortise. Obviously alignment would need to be spot on. Just a thought and probably way more trouble than doing it by hand. Good luck!
Thanks - I had considered ripping the board vertically and using the dado set to create the mortises - never done it for doors tho...
Without ripping the board, you could use the dado to remove wood on a 18 inches or so length to the depth mortice wall and removing more wood the width of the tenon and glue back an 18 inches plank leaving a 1/2 inch slot for the through tenon.
Thanks - had not thought of that. Would probably work well.
You're saving how much money doing it yourself?
About NZD 8000!
Not often you can have a bit of fun AND save money. It's enough to buy a nice hammer planer-thicknesser, though the boss thinks it might buy one leg of a horse for the offspring.
It's mostly a fun learning project making a unique pair of doors with some complex curving joinery and a unique design- I like making big stuff as well as furniture. The original design called for bridle joints which are well within my shop capability, but I thought to consider M&T.
You could also do the rails and stiles in thirds, thickness wise. The two outside layers would look just like a door with solid parts. The middle third would have the faux mortise and tenons. Gaps in the stiles for the mortise, and longer rails to make through tenons.
It would be strong, but a pain to glue up, and really messy. I might opt to smuggle a mortise in your pants, one part at a time.
That an even better way, that is how I would do it with haunched tenons in the ends.
You could try drilling with a lathe. Depth will not be a problem that way.
Mikaol
Thanks - that would be easier. I could create a sliding carriage to push the wood in correct alignment. I'm favouring either the bridle joints, cutting into thirds or halving and using a dado set but will throw that into the mix.
The hard bit will be getting the carriage to move large timbers in line with the lathe axis.
NZ$8000!
Work hard at persuading the ladywife to forget buying one leg of a horse. You will need the rest of the horse plus many accoutrements which will eventually cost YOU an arm and a leg. It becomes difficult to do woodwork with an empty wallet.
If you like doing big stuff, a Domino XL is best bang for buck, as it will also do awkward smaller things requiring narrow but deep mortises. The thickest domino hole is 14mm but it goes down (12, 10 to 8mm) in size to overlap the thicker sizes of the small Domino.
An advantage with Festool man-toys (I mean essential tools) is that you can use them for 5 - 10 years then sell them for what you paid, as inflation does its thing (on prices at least). Here's a Peter Millard 10 minute movie in which he (a professional user) extols this virtue in his Festoolery, whilst also mentioning just how much time & effort his Dominos have saved him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9a1qzLsjFA&t=654s
Of course, for we hobbyists, time & money saving are sometimes the opposite of what we want to achieve. Buggering about with expensive toolery in a shed is very pleasurable. :-)
Lataxe
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2005/01/01/custom-doors-done-easy
This article may be of interest. I know the considerations for professional vs. hobbyist doing it for the love of the work are different. But this is efficient, effective, and builds a bomb-proof door for larger applications.
Exactly what I was thinking. The pocket screws hadn't occurred to me though.
For those who don't consider the pocket screw fine woodworking (which, fairly, it may not be!), this same general method of 3-ply construction is a great simplification. I have alternated the seam on the 3 plies so that the center layer has the rails run end to end, stiles butting into them, which creates a strong joint and essentially creates a bridle joint. You can also join individual layers with mortise and tenons, laps, whatever.
For those after speed though... the hidden pocket screw use here is very efficient and exactly the kind of situation where they thrive. They are essentially just clamps in each layer to hold the joints together while the plies glue up, and the glue line between layers then makes that joint incredibly strong regardless of the individual seam joinery in each layer.
I have nothing against pocket screws in the right application.
Apologies if I implied you did -- that was not my intent!
Was just adding my $.02 for anyone else reading who may not want to use them.
Oh no, not at all. I like my 2 cents too.
Thanks.
Interestingly that is almost my exact design. I have a curved detail running from the bottom hinge corner to the middle rail but otherwise it's the same plan. I think that will work best and is going to be easiest overall.
I was a little worried about loss of material in the ripping, but I think that can be accommodated.
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