I would like to learn about designing furniture. Does anyone reccommend a school or seminar program which offers weekend or week long classes?
jg
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Replies
Gillan,
To err is human.
To anticipate is design.
I cant wait to hear answers to your question. "Design" seems to me to be something that cannot be taught in a day or a week. These are my ideas and not facts. I find that some people design a lot of nice furniture. Others do better if they copy the designs of others. You can study the history of furniture design, and that helps. It gives you ideas to build on. You can stucy the golden ratio. I have. But it doesn't tell you how to apply it. You can find the Golden Ratio all over the place, so there is something to it, but it is not "prescriptive".
I have bought books on Design, but have stopped doing so. I don't find them very fulfilling. Just because someone is a good designer, it doesn't mean that they can teach me how to do good design.
I believe design is a bit like leadership. Some people have it, and some dont, and some have it to various degrees. But you can't teach leadership. You can have a course called leadership, but you cant measure how much better a person can lead after taking the course.
To be a good "designer", you have to have a sense of what many people will think looks good. In other words, you have to look at your design and be able to evaluate it as good, bad or mediocre.
To be positive, I would suggest getting Albert Sack's "Good Better Best" book of furniture. It takes lots of different pieces and he shows you what he thinks is a good design, a better design, and a best design. So who died and left him in charge to make such judgements? Well, he made a good living based on his ability to judge antiques.
Design is not just one thing. I am a Human Factors Psychologist. I am concerned about how well something can be used by people. That brings in ergonomics (sizes, strengths, and angles based on human needs), and a design which is intuitive. In other words, can a person look at it and figure out how to make it do what it is supposed to do without studying a manual.
But you can have something which is well designed from a useability standpoint, but looks ugly. Beauty is another aspect of design. But as they say, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Not everyone agrees, but some people are better judges of what other people will like than others.
Then there is the pragmatics of design. If you come up with a design that everyone loves, but it can't be produced at all, or it cant be produced at a price that people will pay, you haven't got much.
So how could a person who wanted to become a good furniture designer actually get some practice. I think that is relatively easy. Sit down and sketch up three dining tables, three hutches, three dining chairs, three coffee tables, three rocking chairs, etc. Now rate the three of each, and write down your ratings. Now show your sets of three drawings to your spouse, your best friend, etc, and have them rate each of the three, and see how your ratings compare to theirs
When you get so that you can look at one of yours and tell that others will like one the best, then you are on your way to having developed a good "design sense".
Go with your spouse to any large furniture store, and each pick out the best and worst of anything, and see how you agree.
I have written far too much, and probably with too little content, but what the heck, you didnt pay much for this advice.
I leave you with this final thought. Once on the Johnny Carson show, Johnny asked Truman Capote how he knew when he was finished finalizing a piece of writing. Truman said (as only Truman could) "Oh Johnny, you never finish. You just keep revising and revising, and finally someone comes and takes it away from you."
If you read about great designers like Maloof or Krenov or architects like Frank Lloyd Wright, you find that they did the same design over and over again, changing little things and seeing how they worked. You never know until after you have tried.
I haven't answered your question. I have bored you to death. I hope you find some use in these words. I have thought a lot about design because of my profession, but it has been the design of cockpits, and space systems, and design for maintainability. When I design a piece of furniture, I do a full size drawing and check to see if the doors and drawers, etc are at useful heights, and that you can get things off of shelves, etc. I expertise in designing things to be beautiful is far less. However, when I execute a piece of furniture, I think I am a good judge of whether others will like it or not (and whether I like it or not.)
Have fun. When you learn about design, please teach me.
Thanks,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
So you are a human factors psychologist, and in aerospace, I guess. I once worked with a crew of your kind and in the space program in which I had to design the hardware to (I believe it was) NASA Standard 3000.I am probably in agreement with you, but I would state the same ideas differently. I really don't worry too much about whether someone else will be attracted to my work so much as I try to please myself. One should study design to learn the way to make things work moreso than to make them look good. Detroit studied design the other way around. That is probably why most of us drive Japanese cars. Learning design is a task which is life long, too. I am still doing it at 70 -- and enjoying doing it. Patience is required to do the learning which is more by osmosis than study. But study one must. Tage Frid's three books might be a good place to start.BTW, my dovetailed segmented bowl worked partially. Unfortunately, maple didn't show them very well on my prototype. A second one broke apart while being turned and the third chipped badly at the glue joints. I have a fourth made up, but I think I will try using contrasting and different woods rather than wasting more time with maple.Cadiddlehopper
Cadiddlehopper,
It is good to hear from you again. After reading your response, I think we are pretty close in our ideas on design. You brought up the idea of pleasing yourself versus pleasing others. That is the classic inner battle of artists in all areas. Personally, I am a hobbyist. Since I don't have to try to sell my stuff, I don't worry about making things that would please the mass market. I build things that challenge me and that I enjoy doing, and that my wife and kids would like to have (with the emphasis on the last). However for everyone in woodwork who is trying to make a living at it, they have to sell their wares and services. They cant do that if they design things that they like but wont sell because they cost too much, are more artsy than useful or are not seen as sufficiently beautiful by enough potential customers. You mentioned Toyota. My wife, daughter and one son have Toyotas. The design of Toyotas is quite boring from an aesthetic point of view (IMHO). But they give me the one thing that I want in a car -- they don't break often. What wonderful mechanical design! What a great attitude by their management.One of the other responders indicated that anyone can learn design. That is true. Indeed, everyone can do design without learning it. Everyone can do brain surgery without any prepararion. Of course, it may not work well. Design is like love. It is different things to different people. THat is what makes it a fun topic. If you are "anti human factors psychology", you can take solice in the fact that I haven't been doing it in my job since about 1985. It was a great education that helped me get some interesting jobs that paid the rent and allowed me to buy a contractors saw :-). But designing things so that they are easy for people to use is not such a bad thing.Good to converse with you again.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I was using my HF knowledge 'til the day I retired in 1999. That was on the job. I still use it in this hobby. Just can't get away from it. In fact, I still follow the practice of putting a radius on all sharp edges, not out of habit but because I found it an excellent practice.You are right that the professional must please his customer rather than himself. I would hope that most customers can provide the pro with enough visual information that he ceases to be the designer but is more the draughtsman. It is sort of unfair expect more of him.This should be really controversial: I think that F. L. Wright was short on design education and maybe a bit short on common sense. He seemed unable to design a roof that didn't leak. One of his most famous houses is collapsing as we communicate. Many of his creations were pleasant to look at but were totally lacking in durability. I give Greene & Greene a much higher rank as designers. That has to do with the aim of studying design: functional values, then artistic ones.As to the idea that anyone can learn design: I'll never believe that. I am fairly certain that many people I have worked with could never do it. Maybe it has to do with how well one expects a design to work. Set the standard low enough and a newborn can do design.Cadiddlehopper
Cadiddlehopper,
Glad to hear you stick with your Human Factors. I also make sure all edges are rounded, and that everything is at the right height, etc..Your comments on Frank Lloyd Wright are really incisive. Looking at his designs, I think that he produced some "beautiful" stuff. But he was an arrogant cuss and wanted to do everything his way, regardless.... He didn't focus on quality construction. To him, "Design" seemed to focus on how how things looked, rather than how they worked. You gotta give the Devil his due. He is the guy who invented indirect lighting. Very creative. His mind was always working -- he even made some hallways with short ceilings so that people wouldn't congregate there. He got to be more and more of a curmudgeon as time went on. That seems to happen to a lot of "Great Designers". I am really not interested in getting into an argument about some of these folks.It seems that "great designers" come up with a few things that define their "contribution" to the field. THen all of their students design in that vein. Once they become the Master, then creativity wanes, and they become charicatures (sp??) of their former selves. Hero worship sets in. They bask in the reverence, and their apprentices and students can work in a defined paradigm. The GREAT thing about the Beatles is that their songs didn't sound alike. Each was fresh. They were great designers of song. They didn't fall into the trap of sameness. After I spent a day at FL Wright's school, "Taliesin", and listening to all of the descriptions of the man, his approach and his work, I developed a dislike for him. Oh well, I need to get off that kick. I don't like to get negative. I am very interested in this thing called "design". It was fun to think about it for a while. Now it is time to go down to the shop and make some sawdust. Please stay in touch.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
So much has been written or said with regard to this subject that I hesitate to offer anything here. These days it's easy to be accused of terrible things simply because you want to be helpful. I'll try, regardless.
Forget all you think or imagine regarding design. Don't go purchase any books. Rather, imagine a thing. It's purpose. It's intended use. Ask questions of yourself with regard to who will use it, where will it finally rest and how you want to be rewarded for...the design. Then, locate similar objects that will allow you to find common elements to each. Study them carefully. Then once again imagine the thing, it's use, it's purpose. Ask again the who, where questions...then sit quietly and alone until what you imagine begins to take shape on paper. And when it has you will have became..a designer.
I will note here that being able to visualize is likely the greatest gift anyone designing anything will develop.
Be well.
Brian,Well said. Very eloquent. Every wood worker should have to repeat and understand those words to him or herself before beginning any project. Half will most likely miss your astute comments. Your words should be framed and hung in every wood workers shop.If I may, I might add that if the object of all this thought does not please you - the designer - then it will most likely be for naught. In my experience, once the work piece begins to calm me, I know that I am on the correct path. I keep in mind that I have an obligation not only to the client, but also to the wood which should enhance the design. IMO, poorly selected wood is a recipe for failure. Showy grain should be used judiciously. I am very glad you chose to risk being "accused of terrible things simply because you want to be helpful." Regards,
Phillip
I agree with Mel, some people have a gift for it other do not. That doesn't mean we can not work on it.
Looking at what is considered good design, even if it is not to your taste, will help. It's probably a better use of your time and money than taking a formal course. Browse high end furniture stores, and even stores like Ikea. See what's out there and what people like.
I think the biggest lesson that I learn was not to try to reinvent the wheel. My first design project was a TV stand. I wanted it open, but still having a weighty feel to it... The thing turned out looking like a heavy coffee table with a too large tv on it. It happens.
My latest design project was a small end table. I essentially copied the design from a larger table that I had done before. Scalled it down, and worked the proportions. Then worked on the details, tapering the legs etc. It's a major improvement over my first project.
I really like the idea of doing full size designs, I think it may have saved me from my TV stand disaster...
No offense to the others, but keep looking for some classes. Check with your local community college. Art departments often have classes in both three dimensional and two dimensional design. Both disciplines will serve you well. These classes will be for a semester or more, but better in the long run. I have done both, and then some.I attended an afternoon lecture by a furniture designer many years ago. This was a fluke event by the local woodworkers association. Check at local woodworking stores, maybe they arrange classes. Let them know you'd be interested in something on design. Good luck and don't let anyone tell you that design cannot be taught. It's an acquired skill like many others. Art making is in another catagory. They seem to be similiar activities, but they are quite different.
I agree when people say that you can't learn design in a weekend or a week. But anyone can learn to design. There are no hard and fast rules to design. But there are suggestions, like watching proportions and the Golden Rectangle. Everyone has a different design taste and they will design to that.
I believe to be a great furniture designer you need to look and study design in all things, especially outside of furniture. Or you will be to single minded.
This is the exact reason that I decided to go to school and learn design and furniture making. Because I kknew it would take me more than a week to learn. I hope you find something. Because there needs to be more designer makers and not just designers or makers.
Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Anderson ranch, penland, arrowmont ( among others) are all art centers that will have design related courses. You might post over on Furniture society forum too. there's a LOT of designers there. You might be surprised to find a local college offering a design class that would be valuable as well. As others have noted, It's all good. I took a Design 101 class in college and it changed my life.
"design" is not about a particular medium or result. It is a process that uses problem solving and critical thinking skills . Once you learn these, the world is yours. You can do , or become anything you can imagine! I decided to be a woodworker, but creating the space , the place, the tools, the clients, the $$, keeping the Mrs happy, raising a family, etc. are all design challenges.
There are some great replies here! I hope it helps. Here's a couple quotes i like
Whenever i am working on a problem I never think about beauty. I think of only how to solve the problem. But when I am finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
R. Buckminster Fuller
- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Harold
Here are a couple of threads from past years that might be interesting for you. There have been many others, but I did not bookmark them.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=18486.1&redirCnt=1
This one is about a somewhat odd table, notable because it was built by a guy who designed for Michael Graves:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=17675.1
And here are a couple of sites that explain fibonacci numbers and the golden ratio:
http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.golden.ratio.html
http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fib.html
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 10/25/2006 5:25 am by nikkiwood
I see a combination of thought evolving here, I'm for the local school offerings and reading approach......any environment that pushes you to think is positive. I am not endorsing a McGiver environment although he's quite a "DESIGNER".
Its finding an environment, be it your living room, your office, your shop, your personal time, that allows you to visually solve an imbalance or meet a requirement. Finding questions to answer by reading, is key. Who is Hans Memling????
Design is a process, therefore more individuals can create than we believe. It's dependent on who can focus best and deal with distraction better than most. Some of that distraction will be your inability to deal with critique. Witness the negative flow a thread can take in Knots.
Lastly I do not agree that some have it, some don't; nobody has it except those who think they do; and argue there creation or point forcibly.
Got a review here in the Fine Woodworking Books/Video Critique Blog-
http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?nav=main&entry=7&webtag=fw-bookreviews
There you have it, again- A ton of response, but only an ounce of answer to your question- Happens around here a lot- Good luck- And, to answer your question, sorry, no I don't!
Not sure where you live but Laney college in Oakland CA has a 2 semester class in studio furniture that has a design element. Anyway community colleges are a great place to start. The college of the Redwoods in Fort Bragg CA is a very well known program.
Good luck
Troy
Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'
Ode on a Grecian Urn
Keats
To each of you I offer my respect both for your wisdom and talents. The relationship of art and philosophy and the history of both is well represented here. I am a Trinitarian who sees that God is in the micro and the macro, the finite and the infinite, the "I" and the community, etc. "I and the Father are one", so to speak.
To the practical, if you are in central to eastern PA there are a number of schools public and private. The Stevens Schools in Lancaster and Williamsport to start. There will be a woodworkers show in York soon that could refer you to others. Most public high schhol have "shop teachers" who would be happy to talk with you and know the local talent well. Even the city of Phildalphia has a special school for such. Because form and fuction are so related, be strong and search out the one where you think the other is dominant. Neither is far from the other.
Check "Marc Adams School of Woodworking". They offer design classes. I spent 5 days with Graham Blackburn - an exciting period in my life.
Frosty
Design with a capital "D" is a really interesting concept. If you study the "really Great" designers, you will find that many of them had damaged personalities. Like Mel, I really like looking at FLW's more well known examples, but after learning a bit about the man I found myself disliking him as well. It's odd - he was a great "Designer" but a wretched architect (and definitely not a nice man).
What? Well, to me, to be an architect, one's designs must meet three criteria - be pleasing to the eye, be broadly functional, and have what we engineers call design integrity - part of which includes - it Can be built, it achieves it's intended function when it's built, it's sufficiently robust that it doesn't break when exposed to doing it's job in the real world, and it doesn't cost so much to build that it's impractical.
OK, enough philosophy.
I'm going to try to outline an approach to this. It may well be "more about elephants" than you could possibly want to know.
I've found that design is an iterative process (lots of steps). So start out loose and rough - i.e., just do a rough sketch and look at it in front of the space it's got to go into. Make notes on the side re desired height, width, depth. Add thoughts on intended use. More notes on whether or not the intended "stuff" that will go into it will fit the openings that you have envisioned, etc. Add notes on it's intended surroundings - i.e., is everything around it deep red cherry colored and you are thinking maple? (ehhhhh! Wrong Answer! - or not - but think about that) - you get the idea.
Then, refine your sketch. Add some dimensions. Actually think about the golden triangle - see if those ideas will apply to your design by modifying some of your proportions and see if that pleases you.
At this stage in your development, now go do some rapid research - scour the books in the library looking for examples of stuff similar to what you are trying to do - don't waste time looking at really fancy stuff if your intent is something simple - look for stuff as nearly exactly like what YOU are trying to do as you can. Are any of the ideas you find useful? Don't get drawn away by the glitter. YOU decide if any of this stuff meets your CURRENT goal, and make some notes on some of them.
Change your sketch, based on what you've found, if appropriate.
Now refine your sketch again by drawing things to "more-or-less" scale. I say "more-or-less" because you can get so hung up in the detail of exact size and scale that you can lose your creative sense at this point.
Now it's time to take a chance - ask someone who will actually give-a-damn what they think (and not some smart-a** who only values their own ideas) - if this is a person who will follow up with you later and ask "why didn't you use the ideas that I gave you?", then they are the wrong person to ask). Take notes about what they think on A XEROX COPY your sketch - that's good feedback to the person who gives-a-damn - but doesn't completely abandon your ideas due to their input - that's why you did this step on a Xerox copy - you don't want to lose your creative impulse - but you do want their input. Wait a while. Look at their input again when you are by yourself. Use what you like, don't use what you don't like.
Now, hit the books again, but this time you are looking for construction details of stuff that is similar in concept to what you want to do. What are the options for the joints where your parts will come together. Do you have the tools and the knowledge to make that joint? (If not, don't sweat it - you can make sample joints in your shop until you CAN make that joint reliably - it's part of the process - and if you find that you can't - change to one that you can make. Remember "design integrity".)
You'll find that this is a lot of work. If you like it, that's cool - keep it up. If you don't like it, drop it and find an already completed design that does what you want and build that. That satisfies the craftsman in you, and you may find that you have to become a better craftsman before your designer impulse wakes up sufficiently.
One last caveat - don't get caught up in perfectionism - it's a zero sum game. Build it. DON'T tell the viewers the mistakes that you've made, the parts you don't like, and the changes you'd make to the next one - it tears you down, and spoils their pleasure in being shown a craftsman's work.
OK, so there's one approach. Hope this helps.
Mike D
As a designer I feel a personal affront. If FLW was a good Designer then I am not and I don't even try to be one. Please define Designer and architect as you mean them. I believe that I would switch your judgments. I have seen some of the Great FLW's work and pictures of much of it.Cadiddlehopper
Cadid,I am not sure, but I think that when Mike was referring to FLW as a great designer, he was only referring to one aspect of design. That is what I surmize from his message, and that is the way I feel. Designs have to be beautiful, practical (to a degree), affordable, and executable. Often when we speak of design, we are only referring to the "original" aspects of shape of the piece. FLW could do what I can't -- he could look at things in new ways. In other words, he came up with things that didn't look like the stuff that came before. IMHO, if you are great at being creative in drawing up something that breaks current molds, but you dont execute them well, and you don't worry about how well they work over time, then you are not a good designer. I think the three of us are in general agreement.I think of "design" as the development of sketches on how the piece will look, and of "Design" as the overall process of coming up with a "design" which is sufficiently beautiful, practical, useful, executable and affordable to the prospective buyer. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Not to necessarily pick on you, but this statement you made is representative of those of some others in the discussion: "Designs have to be beautiful, practical (to a degree), affordable, and executable."Design gets to solve any question that one asks of it. A client might ask me to design and make a chair as a joke to a friend. He could specify to make it creaky, sticky, look like the devil with six color hair, and since his friend has to pay my fee then I should make it very expensive. Well..... I can design such a chair and I could build it. And, by all criteria, the design will be 100% successful.The first thing a designer must do is establish the design parameters, and these get to be ANYTHING at all. Without them, one is just shooting in the dark.
sapwood,
I didn't think you were picking on me. I fully agree with you. My problem is that I wrote too many words. In one of my posts on this, I said that the first step is to define the requirements and constraints, which is exactly what you said. I also said that the customer is always right. If the customer wants a creaky chair that doesn't fit, then design to that criteria. Of course, I would first get him to sign the contract which says what he wants done, and what it will cost and when it will be delivered. The example you brought up is 100% valid, but I believe that it is more of an exception than a rule. For the most part, people who pay big money for hand crafted furniture want it to look good. Y'all have fun. And you can "pick on me" any time you want. I have a thick skin, and mostly all we talk about on Knots are opinions. I never try to provoke or to pick fights, but I do enjoy a good discussion of differences of opinion. Maybe one of these days, we should do a thread on "List of indisputable woodworking facts". Ha ha. We'll see if we can find one that we all agree on. Enjoy
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
You could try "sharp tools cut better" or even "you cann't cut wood with a saw with no teeth". No, 2nd thoughts, some SOAB would suggest one of thoses abrassive grit things. Rephrase " You canny cut wood with a banana" :)
Have fun
Turnpike
Turnpike,
You have proven it. A thread on listing the undisputable facts of woodworking would be a hoot. Thanks for getting into the spirit of the thing. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mike,
Right on! Well said. Insightful and eloquent. Design is a personal thing -- a private thing. Rarely done well in a committee setting. I think that someone who has a knack for design can get better and better at it, by studying alternatives, and studying the work of others. BUT -- Just as you shouldn't get too hung up on "sharpening", you shouldn't get too hung up on "design". Sharpening should not be a MAJOR EVENT. Design should not be a major event. It is better thought of as part of the furniture making process. Design, then build, and see how it works out. Figure out what you did but wouldn't do again, and learn from the experience. Like you said, Mike. Design is iterative. In furniture making, almost everything is a modification of the designs of others. It would be difficult to design a hutch that doesn't borrow from the hutches that have been designed before. So for any furniture maker who feels that they are not a great designer, there is no need to worry. There are more great designs out there than you can ever build. Focus on picking one you like and then modifying it to suit your purposes.I don't think that it is useful to study "design" apart from the entire woodworking process. I suppose anyone could put together a design course and say: the steps in design are:
- finalize your requirements and constraints
- sketch up a number of designs which meet them.
- take a hard look at the sketches and tweak them (get feedback from others)
- show the best designs to the customer and get feedback.
- finalize the design
- fabricate it.
- make a list of what you would have done differently (lessons learned).But there is not much insightful in that list. Just common sense.I am sure that one could take a "course" in how to design in the style of any given woodworker or paradign (Chippendale, the Shakers, Maloof, Windsor chairs, etc etc etc). That could give the student a headstart in figuring how how to do the joinery for that style, and what the limits of the style are. An artist who can work in lots of different styles is an excellent technician. Can't beat that with a stick. The reason that I like FWW so much is that every issue blows my mind. There are great woodworkers out there who are coming up with ideas that make me humbler and humbler. I can borrow more good ideas than I can generate. Talking about design is like eating cheesecake. One has to know when to stop. I have passed that point. Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
jg,
I just finished an article on this subject for another woodworking magazine. It will appear in the February edition. You may or may not like the article, but it attempts to answer your specific question.
I agree that you cannot learn design in one intensive week. My advice is to look at as many things that you like as possible. Since we're talking furniture, I recommend looking at furniture as much as possible.
Next, if possible, draw that furniture while you are looking at it. Drawing forces you to understand interrelationships between features.
Thirdly, I have a fine arts background which I feel is very helpful. You don't have to be an artist or even have artistic talent (if such a thing exists) to get a lot out of an art class.
I don't agree with the notion that beauty is merely in the eye of the beholder or that design is many things to many people. I don't believe fine art is as subjective as people say it is. Rather, there are basic skills to develop, and basic rules to follow. Representational art is really much more like woodworking than some might think. At least, that's my thinking.
Adam
Metod,
I think you are correct. I remember the statement from when I visited Taliesin that I invented indirect lighting. But I didn't think critically about the statement. Credit goes to the Japanese, as you say. Thanks for pointing that out.
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
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