Those of you who have taken part in the debate about biscuit strength (like myself) might find this article interesting. It’s got to be the most thorough test of biscuits I’ve ever seen.
My one question is the glue they used.
Here’s the link:
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/Abstract/abstract1.html
Replies
interesting. I quit using biscuits but now Im going to have rethink my position. I do got to build a exterior door in the near future ill will consider using biscuits. I think 3 #20s per a joint is enough strength for it.
Oh yea hows the baby doing? :>)
Buckism: Will show you the the way
Edited 8/11/2005 4:26 pm ET by Sancho
Matthew, glue is not compatible with biscuits.
On the other hand, white gravy and sausage is divine.
Steinmetz.
Red-eye gravy and ham for me...
Brian, Holy Smokes! I posted that message 34 posts ago. I was sure to hear from half the population of the red states
Your's was the only reply .
Every time I go to Las Vegas, I always go to my favorite cassino where they serve biscuits and gravy with scrambled eggs and sausage 24 hours a day.
Right here in Connecticut, the best I can find is homefrys ,eggs and bacon. When I was in the army,(50's) i t seemed i was the only one who wolfed down the S O S.
Two versions.... One with chipped beef the other with ground hamburger.
both slathered with white gravy. Great minds think alike. Stein.
Yum, biscuits and gravy. Every Dennys in the world serves them. Even the one off exit 8 in Danbury.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
The last bag of biscuits that I bought were made from 1/8" plywood, well, actually .150". They are smoother than the others, and are five ply. I guess this will call for another test to make sure there are no de-lamination problems.
Andy, thanx.
I'm off to Dennys in Wethersfield Stein.Edited 8/18/2005 9:59 am ET by Steinmetz
Edited 8/18/2005 10:26 am ET by Steinmetz
I like my SOS with the chipped beef, and a secret ingredient: a scoop of crunchy peanut butter mixed in the gravy while it is heating up.Of course, ever since my wife became a vegetarian, I can't get either...
A Vegetarian? I'm an Octogenarian She can go to HER church, I'll go to Mine'
Brian do your own cooking
If you like, I can give you a recipe for the bestest breakfast in the universe. You can't get it in Denny's What proportion of chipped beef to peanut butter do you use. Or doe's it matter?
I use peanut butter by the yard on my double decker sandwiches
(Actually, two icecream scoopsful on each sandwich.)
Steinmetz.
About a heapin' table spoonful per pint of gravy. Partly it depends on how salty the chipped beef is, as the peanut butter does add some salt, unfortunately. Nothin the pepper won't cover, but my doctor is another story.If I do my own cookin' I have to put up with the comments about eatin' Bambi and the rest. At least when our nephew comes we can grill.
Brian, I can empathize with you. My three high school buddies and my wife's three high school girlfriends use to spend vacations and
getaways together
What fun! Drinking beer, shucking and eating raw clams eating heros and drinking beer, smoking luckies and hanging out late at night and scarfing down white castle hamburgers by the dozens.. Did I mention pizza? Except for smoking luckies, I still enjoy all those nasty habits. Sadly, my buddie's wives have chickened out and have gone health conscious.
No beef, no clams ,no shellfish, no heros, (not even Philly cheese steaks. No sugar, no salt ,no nuthin'.The friends, are now the dullest people on earth.
All they talk about is vitamins tofu,no fat, low fat, sugar free, fatty acids,leafy vegetables, no carb, lean cuisine. You should see all the pills in their medicine cabinets! Fortunately, my wife has not 'con' verted me. We just celebrated our 50th anniversary and my health and life is pretty good. I seriously doubt I'll live to 100, but 95 ain't chopped liver either. Show this post to your wife before you too turn 75 Steinmetz. How close are you to Danbury? I can tell you where to get a big greasy pastrami sandwich in Vernon
(Don't show her this last comment.) Ed. from Ct.
Edited 8/20/2005 5:05 am ET by Steinmetz
Stein,
My wife's neice married a health nut. No red meat, runs 6-8 mi every day. Once we were eating dinner at their home, and I made the mistake of asking for salt. "What, are you still eating that white poison?", he asks. I answered, "Bob, do you think your lifestyle will make you live longer, or does it just SEEM longer?"
Cheers,
Ray
Bryan,
My secret ingredient is a TBS of Worchestershire (or "Wha's dis here?") sauce. Gives it a little boost, without being obvious.
Cheers,
Ray
hmmm, I'll have to try that.
I had a long on-line exchange with Chuck a few years ago. The tenons used were stub tenons from a shaper. If you're using 1/4" or 3/8" stub tenons structurally, I advise you to stay out of the chair business and learn to write a tail-light guarantee.
What exactly is a stub tenon, from a shaper?
Look at a rail and stile door. the little itty bitty tongue and groove is essentially a stub tenon.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
There's a smiling face that displays next to your name, but I don't seem to recognize it. What was your old handle?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I used to just post under my name, Larry Williams. I haven't been around a lot lately because of my work load. I now have help and a little more time. Someone once told me to find someone to work with who knows more than I do. On most subjects that'd be a simple task but the esoteric and anachronistic area I work in, things are a little different. I knew of only one person and he's been here two weeks. He's good and I'm thrilled he's here.
Kind of an odd article; an example of the engineers-can't write syndrome.
They mention three different glues. "Key Words" lists "urea adhesives," but only Titebond II and Excel polyurethane appear in the article. Titebond appears to have only been used on two samples.
Key information is missing (what were the dimensions of the tenons?) and some of the information provided is contradictory (text says the single-joint samples failed at 593 to 1685 N, table 1 shows 1820 to 5171 N).
Why test "particle board tenons" at all? Does anyone actually use these in door construction? Seems like it would have been more rigorous to have tested three pine tenon joints instead.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Hey,
Slow down there, I'm an Engineer, seven years of college and nothing there is, is there wrong with my skills in skilling writing. Also, I never have and make no of none spelling mistakes ever, even.
On the other hand, I agree with you about the article, and although I have a biscuit (plate) jointer, I will never be a biscuit fan.
Willie
Hey yerself,I are a engineer to, also a sine-tist, but I kin rite an spel!It's sadly true that most engineers are terrible writers; but then, most people in general are poor writers...I like my plate joiner just fine, but I also like M&T joints. Biscuits are basically just a special kind of loose tenons, shorter and weaker but faster. I'd rather use a slot mortiser than a plate joiner."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einsteinhttp://www.albionworks.net
Edited 8/13/2005 7:59 pm ET by AlbionWood
"Why test particle board tenons at all?"- have you looked at a lot of doors lately? What seems to be a solid core cope and stick door is usually veneered particle board. Even a lot of high-dollar doors(over $1000) are veneered. Much more stable and they can get the look they want without having to search for suitable solid wood.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Are those veneered MDF doors joined with particle-board tenons? I doubt it... My question was, why test particle-board tenons in solid-wood construction? Does anybody actually do joinery that way? Seems crazy."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
The ones I have and have seen on job sites have the profile milled and a fairly short tenon inside. Apparently, the logic is that as long as the tenon is captive in the joint, it's less likely to fail unless it has a pretty fair amount of force applied. One of my doors has a joint that's loose, so I may see if I can get it apart to see how it's constructed. I'll post my findings if it's odd or just crap. The rest of the doors seem pretty solid, though. The may have dowelled them, too. A lot faster than M&T.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Chuck Ring, the guy who runs that forum, has been a proponent of biscuit joinery for years.
I dismiss the 'study' for bias.
Somebody please put a bullet in the back of my head if I build an entry door with biscuits.
"
Chuck Ring, the guy who runs that forum, has been a proponent of biscuit joinery for years.
I dismiss the 'study' for bias. "
Regardless of where it is posted or who posts it, are you saying that a scientific study by Sandia National Laboratories is biased just because some people may be proponents of a particular method? I think our national laboratories and their staff have a lot more integrity than that. Let the scientific evidence speak for itself and if you read the report, it does give the edge of strength to traditional M&T joinery.
"I dismiss the 'study' for bias."Can't resist pointing out the irony in that!Any study that purports to be scientific has to be evaluated on its own merits, regardless of external perceptions. Whether or not an author has bias is largely irrelevant, unless the bias is manifest in the report. Having said that, this study is so poorly conceived and reported that it could be dismissed on a purely scientific basis. They have too many variables and too few repetitions. Nothing has really been proven."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
If you'd heard Chuck Ring drone on, literally for years, about the merits of plate joinery then trust me you would think the same way.
When I see Chuck Ring's name on an article about plate joinery I automatically tune it out. I don't care if he was quoting Albert Einstein.
Dismiss it on whatever basis you choose. But please dismiss it.
If somebody is gearing up to produce a run of 50,000 interior and exterior doors for the manufactured housing market then plate joinery might be an attractive option.
I sometimes think Chuck started his forum purely as a platform from which he could propound the use of biscuit joinery. Drivel to the nth power.
Edited 8/14/2005 3:26 pm ET by ProWoodworker
Hum, It would have been nice to see a longer M&T thrown in to the test so there would have been at least one properly proportioned joint in the test.
As I said in my previous posts, the name Chuck Ring on the article was enough for me. That, and common sense.
Chuck is a very nice guy, he just has a strange fixation on defending biscuit joinery.
At best I think it's misleading to call what's basically a short cross grain tongue and groove joint a "mortise and tenon." The engineers may well have conducted a competent test comparing cross grain tongue and groove joints with biscuits, but they sure couldn't make any determination about mortise and tenon joints since none were tested. As to comparing tongue and groove and biscuits, who cares. I wouldn't use either when joint strength was critical.
Edited 8/16/2005 10:22 pm ET by lwilliams
What would be your preference if joint strength were critical?
Walker1
Depends on the situation. Is the joint under compression, shear or tension? There are a lot of situations and a lot of options.
Yeah the question was very non specific, I was just brain picking.
Walker1
"Any study that purports to be scientific has to be evaluated on its own merits, regardless of external perceptions. Whether or not an author has bias is largely irrelevant, unless the bias is manifest in the report."I also am an engineer. All evaluations take time to make. I find it cheaper and easier to dismiss reports simply because there may be bias on the part of the author.If I was going to build 2 doors a month, I would keep with practices that had worked for me in the past.If I was going to start a large production shop, I would pay an engineer to determine the most cost effective method. I would expect that engineer would not read the study in sufficient detail to determine its merit. He might read it to determine possibilites but nothing else.
It's certainly easier to dismiss something just by asserting author bias, but by doing so you simply substitute your bias in place of the author's. That has nothing to do with either science or engineering - it is laziness. I do it myself, but I admit to being lazy!I don't understand why you would not expect an engineer to read such a study to evaluate its merit, yet you would pay him to determine the most cost-effective method. That makes no sense to me; the first thing you have to do is determine whether the study is valid, before you even consider whether its data are useful or its conclusions reliable. The whole point of reviewing such studies is to find out if someone has already done some of the work for you.I once read a definition of an engineer: someone who does well with one dollar, that which the ordinary person does poorly with two. Efficient use of resources (materials, time, labor, capital) is what it's about."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
AlbionWood ---It is not laziness. It is a matter of where one can best spend his time. I will review this particular paper for you:I quit reading at "Data from a limited number of experiments indicates that biscuit reinforced joints nearly equal the strength of the mortise and tenon."My m&t joints don't fail. I would have expected to see the word "stress" not the word "strength."I lost interest in less time than it took to write this comment.
From one Engineer to another, in good English, the word "strength" was more appropriate.
He was writing about a joint, which derives its strength, from a few components and factors.
''Stress", refers to tension, compression, bending, or shear, as applied to a cross section.
Willie
Willie ---AlbionWood ---As I said I quit reading with the first or second paragraph.
Most of the engineers I work with would be interested enough to figure out why the study results conflict with their own preconceptions.The engineering question is not "Are biscuit joints as strong as M&T?" but rather, "Are biscuit joints strong enough for this application?" Two very different questions. It seems as if everyone here is fixated on the first, and ignoring the second. The authors fell into that trap themselves.I have no doubt that your M&T joints don't fail - they are probably far stronger than necessary. Whether that additional strength is worth the additional expense is another question entirely; answering it requires consideration of other factors beyond mechanics."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
"The engineering question is not "Are biscuit joints as strong as M&T?" but rather, "Are biscuit joints strong enough for this application?" Two very different questions. It seems as if everyone here is fixated on the first, and ignoring the second. The authors fell into that trap themselves."
In real life, the engineering question is not, "Can a Corvette go fast enough to maintain the speed limit, uphill or downhill, being at most 75 mph." The question is rather, "How fast can it accelerate and what is the top speed."
Yawn......
Have to get back to work.
Touche'
"Data from a limited number of experiments indicates that biscuit reinforced joints nearly equal the strength of the mortise and tenon."
Mmhhmmm.... "nearly" now that's a term just shot full of precision.
What aplication? Case work, drawers or trim? Doors, tables?
mike
DAMN! Just SAY YOU HATE BISCUITS! and be done with it!
Can't help chiming in here, Pro- I think a third eye would be more appropriate- just so you know who dunnit.
Bisqweet joins have their place, but are no substitute for well cut tenons, especially when strength is a factor.Philip Marcou
I usually use the old Mortis and Tendon.. Loos as in Router made...I did a test with just MDF and biscuits some time ago.. Edges together and some #10 and #20's...I just cut and glued as 'normal?' Well, for me that is...I found the joints MORE than satisfactory...OK I only use biscuits sometimes... BUT... I would think if the old 'MASTERS' had them and Electric' for the cutter they would have used em!
I too have done a lot of "testing". Buiskits are strong for cracase, and drawer joinery. However I dare someone to make a chair using bisquites and let my Aunt Suzie sit in it for a year, or worse than that let my 3 year old use it for a week. If I read his comparisons correctly it sounds like he was using stub tennons. Certaintly a stub tennon is going to be very close to a biskit.
Mike
mudman,
Hope your Aunt Suzie doesn't read your last post! But I know what you mean. Every family has at least one person who would, um, shall we say, put biscuits to the test! My Aunt Ruth would certainly make for an interesting, but short-lived, study of biscuits in chair joinery!!!I'm picturing it now. Not a pretty sight. Not at all...
Edited 8/15/2005 7:23 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
LOL LOL
Man I'm cracking up. "put biscuits to the test". Last Thanksgiving she went through a whole basket of biscuits, some how the chair survived. Unfortunately the fart fan in the bathroom didn't.
He he,
Mike
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